Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spellbook Design and Construction => Topic started by: Shad0w on September 23, 2013, 09:01:57 AM
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This first post is my template build (aka pre Alpha)
1 Archer's Watchtower
3 Enchanter's Wardstone1 Idol of Pestilence
2 Mana Crystal
1 Mana Siphon
1 Poison Gas Cloud
2 Quicksand
1 Suppression Orb
3 Tanglevine1 Wall of Steel
1 Wall of Thorns
2 Battle Fury
1 Charge
2 Dispel
2 Dissolve
2 Force Push
4 Teleport
2 Enchantment Transfusion
2 Essence Drain
2 Force Crush
1 Ghoul Rot2 Hawkeye
2 Jinx
1 Magebane
2 Nullify
1 Teleport Trap
1 Giant Wolf Spider
1 Grimson Deadeye, Sniper
1 Iron Golem
4 Hurl Boulder
After a few plays I added WT and a few more attacks to get me to this version.
I will post some notes on this later but test it out and see if you can figure out why I made certain choices
1 Archer's Watchtower
3 Enchanter's Wardstone
1 Idol of Pestilence
2 Mana Crystal
1 Mana Siphon
1 Poison Gas Cloud
2 Quicksand
1 Suppression Orb
3 Tanglevine
1 Wall of Steel
1 Wall of Thorns
1 Wizards Tower
2 Battle Fury
1 Charge
2 Dispel
2 Dissolve
4 Teleport
2 Enchantment Transfusion
2 Essence Drain
1 Force Crush
1 Ghoul Rot
2 Hawkeye
2 Jinx
1 Magebane
2 Nullify
1 Teleport Trap
1 Giant Wolf Spider
1 Grimson Deadeye, Sniper
1 Iron Golem
4 Hurl Boulder
2 Jet Stream
2 Surging Wave
54 spells, 120 spell points
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To be killed by a couple of Force Pushes through a Wall of Thorns?
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To be killed by a couple of Force Pushes through a Wall of Thorns?
Nope is has a control theme. The wall is a basic trap used to limit the other mages movement.
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To be killed by a couple of Force Pushes through a Wall of Thorns?
Nope is has a control theme. The wall is a basic trap used to limit the other mages movement.
I was talking about your mage with no armor....
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That has never been an issue but only about 20-30 matches so far. :P
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The second crush is so important here. Losing so much tempo to a well timed dispel. As well, it can help set up your early game, as dropping Sniper and the crushing them to buy you a turn can spike upwards of 7-12 damage, depending on armor and proximity to mage. As well, I find dropping the wardstones during you ini QC AFTER dropping a heavy enchant is a strong play, because most mages these days (read: Wizard) plan their mana down to 0-1. Especially if they have a few spawnpointy things out.
All in all, in testing, this book has either worked really well, or fallen flat. Bad rolls on the Spider almost maked me want to try something else, as there are a few things that can really hurt this book, and them getting to the late game with you having a "loose" set-up can hurt really bad. All in all, it does deal with intercept really well though.
It's deceptively difficult book to play. One small change I would make is -1 surging for +1 Force push. It's such a great tactical advantage, that even if you aren't Wall of Thorning them, you can still use it to leverage your sniper and your spider without wasting a port.
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This is one of the hardest books I have played. Dude is correct upping the force push count is one of the first changes I had made to this.
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After about 8 weeks This is the version I am currently testing. It is very modal and it does not have too much room for error in your line of play. I was going to play this at 3con it is the tech Laddin and I were talking about.
Earth Wizard - Control ver02
1 Archer's Watchtower
2 Enchanter's Wardstone
2 Mana Crystal
1 Mana Siphon
1 Poison Gas Cloud
2 Quicksand
1 Suppression Orb
3 Tanglevine
1 Wall of Steel
1 Wall of Thorns
1 Wizards Tower
2 Battle Fury
1 Charge
2 Dispel
2 Dissolve
2 Force Push
1Rouse the Beast
4 Teleport
2 Enchantment Transfusion
1 Essence Drain
2 Force Crush
1 Ghoul Rot
1 Hawkeye
1 Jinx
1 Magebane
2 Nullify
1 Teleport Trap
1 Giant Wolf Spider
1 Grimson Deadeye, Sniper
1 Iron Golem
4 Hurl Boulder
1 Jet Stream
2 Surging Wave
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Looks good. A one of poisoned blood seems to do more work late game than Magebane does, IMO.
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Looks good. A one of poisoned blood seems to do more work late game than Magebane does, IMO.
The difference is in what tempo and kill window you want to set. MB is best used early for quick DoT damage or very late for closing match control. PB only real use is in the late game to close a match on the last 2-3 turns. My original thought was I wanted MB for the modal application but I can see the reason behind using PB.
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In playing this book I have found it's very hard to really pull of the win early to mid game. DoTs or no DoTs, usually the opponent can answer with enough tricks to get past the early to mid game. The late game is really where this book shines it little light, which is why I give clause to PB over MB. As well, Magebane becomes a non threat with Spawnpoints. The key to playing with creatures against Mana Wizard is deciding which to keep with Upkeep costs, and which to destroy. to bank off of that, I would think about including a one of Supper Cloak, because Obe and Orb alone will not often be enough to stop (speedbump- yes, but outright say no to?) the opponent often times, and it does make life just a little bit easier.
Your winning image is Seeing them stuck with Ghoul Rot, Cloud, and Crush. Getting to that moment where they have no gas will take a while, and Cloak gives you the gas that they lack.
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After about 8 weeks This is the version I am currently testing. It is very modal and it does not have too much room for error in your line of play. I was going to play this at 3con it is the tech Laddin and I were talking about.
Earth Wizard - Control ver02
1 Archer's Watchtower
2 Enchanter's Wardstone
2 Mana Crystal
1 Mana Siphon
1 Poison Gas Cloud
2 Quicksand
1 Suppression Orb
3 Tanglevine
1 Wall of Steel
1 Wall of Thorns
1 Wizards Tower
2 Battle Fury
1 Charge
2 Dispel
2 Dissolve
2 Force Push
1Rouse the Beast
4 Teleport
2 Enchantment Transfusion
1 Essence Drain
2 Force Crush
1 Ghoul Rot
1 Hawkeye
1 Jinx
1 Magebane
2 Nullify
1 Teleport Trap
1 Giant Wolf Spider
1 Grimson Deadeye, Sniper
1 Iron Golem
4 Hurl Boulder
1 Jet Stream
2 Surging Wave
This seems very cool and is a lot different from my Earth Wizard. I'd love to see the build in action, mostly to see how and when you use some of your spell choices (notably Mana Siphon, but a few others as well). I'm assuming you use the Poison Gas Cloud to force turtles out of their starting zone as well as mess with creature Spawnpoints?
I've got to admit, as much as I think the Giant Wolf Spider seems cool, I've yet to try him. He's just so expensive. I've also yet to play against one. I really need to at least try it out.
Also, I've come to really like Enchanter's Wardstone. Very, very solid card. I love that it basically makes your facedown enchantments immune to Seeking Dispel (who's going to spend 6 mana to dispel a facedown enchantment?). I've been tempted to put together an equipment light, enchantment heavy Beastmaster book (running the Pixie) with several Wardstones. May or may not work, but it seems like it may find a hole in the current meta and find a home (perhaps only temporarily though).
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So I've been gazing at this list for ages, ever since it appeared, trying to work out the reason for each card, the internal synergies. As the list has shown its evolution, I think I'm finally understanding all the jigsaw pieces.
I love the build's ambition but it feels so ... fragile. And crazy challenging to play too. The latter is a good point, the former less so.
The above stylish satisfying ending referred to by The Dude reminds me of an old Mana Denial build I mentioned some time ago.
A complex strategy would be mana denial; winning by Force Hold on a mage who spent all Dispels (on Essence Drains and Pacifies on his creatures) while Wand of Drain Power hits him each Early QC at range 2 (Mana Siphon in play), watching him slowly die to Pestilence while you wear Regrowth Belt, achieving the satisfying semi-hard lock playing almost creatureless mana denial, that is a cerebral complex strategy.
In that game, I was satisfied with the holy grail of a semi-hard lock (anyone remember Kismet Stasis decks?), watching his life tick away. Killing him slowly. I can see the (accelerated) "spider/tangle trap" providing that same sense of evil fun. I call it "playing with my food"...
One thing puzzles me: how does it handle aggro with no defence beyond restrain? I would feel naked going out into the arena like that, just like sIKE said. You have a bunch of great tricks here (all with restrain synergy). But if someone simply closes you down quickly (like Fire Warlock), how do you withstand it without armour to augment your Shield?
Is it fair to say that it is a stylish build that is great fun to play because it is so challenging, with very satisfying win conditions, and that it could always win any match. But it can also draw a blank, especially to an efficient aggressive build? Or a defensive build, e.g. Guardian Angel? Do play-testers play weird and wonderful "interesting" books because they play so much and want to push the boundaries, test out their theories. So how does this deck do against (boring) tried and tested builds? I see it is as a great fun, unpredictable (it has many paths to victory), dangerous but inconsistent build. Or am I being grossly unfair here?
I am currently conceptualising a "fun" Jokhtari control book with Spitting Raptors, Galador, Tanglevines, Hunting Bow, Dire Wolves, Idol of Pestilence for Bloodthirsty and Deathlock for Bleed. I mention it because there are some similarities in concept (sadly Spiders aren't Lair friendly). But because I don't see why you don't play Deathlock as it doesn't hurt you and shuts down many healing builds. I appreciate it's another zone exclusive but surely with Priestess a bad match-up currently, it merits consideration?
Thanks, anyway, for the "puzzle" that was this build. Sorry in advance if my temerity causes any offence. It was not my intention at all.
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I guess, from my stand point, I play 1-2 games daily of Mage Wars. Seeing the same old is not a bad thing, it's good to test against builds that consistently win. It gives you a good control to test against, perhaps. The Hypothesis is that this build is effective at doing X against any given mage (after all, consistently spread across various degrees of difficulty is key). As well, testing against different people with very likely similar builds gives you data. Usually when playtesters in particular talk about "consistent" results, they are speaking about the games it has won and lost, with the win ratio being a much higher majority. This, however, is a rare build. It's what I refer to as an ego build, or, more gently perhaps, a build that is best suited for it's user. You see that a lot with playtesters, as they, as we like to call, "go extremely deep" and end up with weird, strange, and fantastical combinations, often mixes and mash-ups of decks seen from other players in the past. For instance, you can the influence my THC Stone Wiz had on his build, from the Sniper to the tangle vines. It's what is added that makes it important.
Now, from your perspective, it truly is a puzzle without a sort of "primer" to go along with the build. You are kind of thrown in the fire with nothing but a small vial of flame retardant. How could one possibly escape? You see, unlike most books that hope to plan something during gameplay, which is to say during the action stage, this build hopes to build to an effective strategy way before gameplay even takes place. It's the kind of playing in which you have to hit certain checkpoints to know you are proceeding correctly. Do I have 2 crystals out round 3? IS my sniper in the correct position round 4? Is my spider in restraining distance round 4? As well, it takes some amount of logic to pull off correctly. Certain times, I'm going to want to put out spider before sniper to stop them from getting to sniper as easily. Other times I can cast sniper without fear. And yet other times, I want to use Golem to guard for me while I set up the kill, which is transfusion/null/crush/rot. 4 actions that are strategically handled throughout the game so as to give the opponent no outs.
As to your thoughts on how it fares to aggro, I agree. IT gets kind of fuzzy there, which is why he should include Supper Cloak.
This post probably doesn't help anyone at all, ever, but it sure was fun to string thoughts out like that. It's kind of like laying in a lazy river.
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In playing this book I have found it's very hard to really pull of the win early to mid game. DoTs or no DoTs, usually the opponent can answer with enough tricks to get past the early to mid game. The late game is really where this book shines it little light, which is why I give clause to PB over MB. As well, Magebane becomes a non threat with Spawnpoints. The key to playing with creatures against Mana Wizard is deciding which to keep with Upkeep costs, and which to destroy. to bank off of that, I would think about including a one of Supper Cloak, because Obe and Orb alone will not often be enough to stop (speedbump- yes, but outright say no to?) the opponent often times, and it does make life just a little bit easier.
Your winning image is Seeing them stuck with Ghoul Rot, Cloud, and Crush. Getting to that moment where they have no gas will take a while, and Cloak gives you the gas that they lack.
One of the things I tried was sup cloak and and alter of Peace. I wanted this to have no promos but I forgot to add in the cloak again. It should also have Modok's Ob
The book looks more like this after the changes.
1 Suppression Cloak
1 Archer's Watchtower
2 Enchanter's Wardstone
2 Mana Crystal
1 Mana Siphon
1 Mordok's Obelisk
1 Poison Gas Cloud
2 Quicksand
1 Suppression Orb
3 Tanglevine
1 Wall of Steel
1 Wall of Thorns
1 Wizards Tower
1 Battle Fury
1 Charge
2 Dispel
2 Dissolve
2 Force Push
1 Rouse the Beast
4 Teleport
1 Enchantment Transfusion
1 Essence Drain
2 Force Crush
1 Ghoul Rot
1 Hawkeye
1 Jinx
2 Nullify
1 Poison Blood
1 Giant Wolf Spider
1 Grimson Deadeye, Sniper
1 Iron Golem
4 Hurl Boulder
1 Jet Stream
2 Surging Wave
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As the dude said this is a pet project book that I have been working on for a while now. A few things I have looked at are dropping the spider and adding a Grizzly. If this is done you remove the Quick Sand. Each change made to this must be well thought out because it has no direct line of play. This was why i wanted to see if anybody picked up on the subtle tricks this book has. The book works best when it is not known you will be playing it. If played correctly you can win a match in 35-50 minutes with no problems.
The reason this has changed so much from the Gencon build is it was setup to play against the necro and druid. With the gencon build I was reaching more into the Poison DoT build but as everybody has seen the necro is poison immune and the druid uses vines to summon behind your main line.
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I'm not sure if Grizzly is best here. Yes, it's phantasic and all that jazz and what not, but I think spider does more here. And yes, battle furied spider is loose as shit, but when it works, it's too good. Reason I would think about grizzly though is with the advent of Necro, Purifies will see a resurgence like no other.
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How can Obelisk and Orb be in the same book? They are both epic right?
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Epic
Only 1 copy of this spell can be in a Mage’s spellbook.
What is the problem with both being in the same spellbook?
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Right. I misunderstood Epic.
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Right. I misunderstood Epic.
Keeping Epic/Legendary/Unique strait is a bit of a challenge after almost a year!