Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: ringkichard on August 20, 2013, 11:12:35 AM
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I first ran into this effect when I started playing a Warlord book with 4x Iron Golem. What I found is that most players quickly decide that there's no profitable way to kill an Iron Golem (arm 5, 13 health, 13 mana) so they don't bother, and instead try to play around it with Teleport or Force Hold or whatever.
Then I noticed it again when I ran Necropian Vamp and Bridge Troll with Wizard. They were much easier for opponents to work around than to actually kill. Like the card says: easier to build another bridge.
Weirdly, my Beastmaster's Grizzlies never really brought out this behavior in opponents, except that they'd draw a lot of Gorgon Archer fire. This was good for me, because Grizzlies are hard to kill and I generally want my opponents to try to kill my stuff... if I can make them fail.
I have lost creatures that I would have expected to be avoided instead: Valshalla and my own Gorgon Archers, for example. I have also killed opposing Necropian Vamps successfully, and both successfully and unsuccessfully gone after opposing Gorgon Archers. My experience has been a mixed bag, is what I'm saying.
I got to thinking about this when the idea of playing Troll instead of Grizzly came up. The question was, "Is Troll too easy to kill to be a good replacement?" So I have to ask, is anyone out there trying to kill it?
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Yes IMO Troll is too easy to kill to be a replacement in the scenario you mention. Just my opinion of course.
Armor is a big factor in that decision (at least for me). Because of that I think the Bridge Troll is worth killing since it doesn't have armor. Ya 3 regen sucks but every damage hits, so with a couple creatures or a well places spell the Bridge Troll falls over WAY easier than an Iron Golem. If said Troll gets beefed up with Rhino Hide I might think twice. It is about return on action investment factors.
EVERYtime I've seen an Iron Golem come out I just ignore them. Why do I ignore them? Because just like you said it isn't worth your time to kill them. If I expended enough of my creatures/spells/attack resources to take out a creature with 5 armor and 13 life...how much damage could I have done to the opposing mage instead?!
Take that damage and resources and apply it where it will do good. Because let's say I even did expend enough resources to kill it, after it is dead they can summon another, all the while they gain a ton of action advantage. You could literally spend the entire game killing opposing mages creatures but it is much faster and more efficient to just kill the opposing mage instead.
Harder to ignore if they use them as guards, although you can use ranged attacks or go elusive to get past that, then they just wasted an action phase not doing damage.
I do use the Gorgon Archer like you said for bait. She draws a lot of aggro (and that is great), with her armor and regen and ranged attacks she can hold her own for a good while. I love it when they go for her instead of for me, let's me build up and do other things while their focus is diverted.
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I never attack creatures unless taunted or they are guarding the Mage. I find the most profit in controlling the Mage or creatures such that I get clean attacks on the Mage.
The aim of the game is to kill the Mage, so i find that damage done to anything else is very secondary, and usually a waste of time. Other than the odd zone attack.
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I never attack creatures unless taunted or they are guarding the Mage. I find the most profit in controlling the Mage or creatures such that I get clean attacks on the Mage.
The aim of the game is to kill the Mage, so i find that damage done to anything else is very secondary, and usually a waste of time. Other than the odd zone attack.
So the Griz is in your face chomping on you, the opposing mage is across the arena, what do you do?
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I never attack creatures unless taunted or they are guarding the Mage. I find the most profit in controlling the Mage or creatures such that I get clean attacks on the Mage.
The aim of the game is to kill the Mage, so i find that damage done to anything else is very secondary, and usually a waste of time. Other than the odd zone attack.
I generally agree with the above - except for Warlord, Beastmistress and Priest as they have mechanics that promote a creature control strategy. And familiars. Also Priestess playing zonal control (4 Archers + 4 Guardians) will focus attacks to eliminate threats sequentially.
I think however this thread is about a psychological threshold when you think "that creature is better bypassed than killed". In that respect, I totally agree with ringK that Iron Golem reads "work around me, don't bother attacking me" (which is great as they can't be healed). In fact I rely on this in my Earth Wizard build with 4 Golems + 1 Gorgon Archer + toolbox Wizard's Tower attacks as threats.
Armour vs. regen is dependent on your opponent's strategy. Armour is better vs. swarm & multi-strike, regen better against single source threats. As the meta currently doesn't favour swarm, I equate Armour 2 = Regen 2. Armour can be Pierced and Regen can be made Finite. I know it seems to overplay healing but we only have to compare Guardian Angel to Panzerguard to appreciate the power of healing. With regen, assuming you win the creature vs. creature, you then heal damage in the respite, overtaking armour benefits. Obviously if swarms and multi-strike become popular, I will revise this evaluation.
Note also that Armour has increasing benefits (that's why Armour 1 < Regen 1 but Armour 3 > Regen 3 for current meta). This is because you are more likely to encounter Piercing 1 than Piercing 2 etc. Stacking armour to obscene levels - well ask an Iron Golem! Also a mage has more life resource and is pushed through Wall of Thorns. Hence I don a Breastplate before the Belt. Fortunately, there's no algorithm.
So in an aggressive build where you apply overwhelming force to win creature vs. creature, Bridge Trolls can be very good. But if they are alone facing a swarm, oh dear. Alas, Flame +2 makes them too inconsistent to base a strategy around with the Warlock so popular. Also why Flowers are weaker than Crystals (suspect the Druid will correct this).
In my mind, Golem and Hydra are the only 2 creatures I don't bother with (assuming playing a rare zonal control book), Hydra because of Counterstrike and Regen 2. Only those 2 creatures have that "don't bother" aura for my own psychology. Other Slow creatures are ranged threats so should be dealt with else opponent will gain control (I don't count Earth Elemental as I rejoice if my opponent summons one).
Creature control is a form of mana denial. It may look like "playing with your food" (especially as Beastmistress) but it says "don't bother summoning threats as they have 1 attack before I kill them". As creatures cost a full action and 1 attack is less than an equivalent attack spell, this creates a creature-denial soft lock. Once you achieve that position, you can hunt down the enemy mage, slowly accumulating your creature overlap.
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I never attack creatures unless taunted or they are guarding the Mage. I find the most profit in controlling the Mage or creatures such that I get clean attacks on the Mage.
The aim of the game is to kill the Mage, so i find that damage done to anything else is very secondary, and usually a waste of time. Other than the odd zone attack.
So the Griz is in your face chomping on you, the opposing mage is across the arena, what do you do?
Just don't let that position develop. Failing that, various positioning spells such as teleport.
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Both board dominance and assassination plays can work, you just need to make sure that you're doing things to efficiently support whichever play style you're implementing, and be flexible enough to switch if necessary. There comes a point in any board dominance play where you need to focus down the enemy mage.
If I'm in a good spot to go after the opposing mage, I'll often do that. Tanglevine is generally the best/cheapest way of bypassing powerful guards with multiple creatures, while Elusive is the best way of bypassing guards for a single creature.
If I don't think I'll be able to kill my opponent without dealing with some of their creatures, I will try to find a way to build an advantageous board position. I've had games where I kind of ran out of steam because I didn't worry enough about board dominance, and let my opponent build up a huge creature advantage. You can still win from this position if you've done enough damage already, but it's a precarious position for most mages to be in.
I've killed Iron Golems before, but it is fairly resource intensive, and it's generally better to work around them. Iron Golems are hands down the most efficient creatures in the game from the standpoint of a pure slug fest, which is why they make such phenomenal guards. They are just so tough for their cost.
Earth Elemental is significantly more expensive, and isn't an effective guard, so it's more difficult to promote a slug fest with them. I almost killed an Earth Elemental once, but my opponent conceded before I could finish it off. Mostly I was trying to keep it Stun locked with Temple of Light before the nerf.
Bridge Troll is very weak against multiple threat sources without Rhino Hide, but the advantage of Rhino Hide is that it only costs 1 mana to enchant Bridge Troll if you're using Enchanter's Ring, and you don't need to reveal it until armor will benefit you. The other issue with him is that fire attacks will kill him incredibly quickly. This can be an issue against Lord of Fire, the Warlock, and anyone with a copy of Fireblast. I still like Bridge Troll, but I don't think he fits into my current builds very well. Without armor, Bridge Troll is too easy to focus down. With armor, he's more of an investment.
I've actually been working on de-emphasizing fire damage in my Warlock book, since Dragonscale Hauberk and Elemental Cloak are so efficient at defending against it. I still use Fireball and Fireblast, but I've stopped using Lash of Hellfire and Lord of Fire. I'm thinking about adding a Hurl Boulder, but those are all currently tied up in other spellbooks. I can probably pry one loose from my Earth Wizard build though.
Valshalla and Samandriel are both relatively vulnerable to large attacks for their cost (same with the wind angel, but she just seems much worse overall). You really need to give them an extra armor or 2 if you don't want them to be focused down. This doesn't matter if your opponent never attacks your creatures unless they're guarding, but it can be an important factor if your opponent goes for board dominance.
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I've never killed an Iron Golem, but I did once swarm and kill an Earth Elemental. The only other creature that comes close to that durability is Whirling Spirit without ethereal attacks. Haven't done that yet, either.
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Before the nerf I two shotted one(Iron Golem) with a FM + Gav + Bear + his full action attack + Battle Fury. I am guessing that is why BF was nerfed :). My opponent was quite shocked and very soon was dead too.
In the same line of thinking the Vorpal Blade promo is quite efficient and powerful vs. armor. It is cheap and in my Warlord book I carry both Blade and Star. One gives Piercing the other Unavoidable. Pull out the one you need.
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I've killed Whirling Spirit, but that was with Ethereal attacks. I did that once with Mage Staff and once with Galador. I wouldn't bother to try without Ethereal attacks.
I've killed Iron Golems a few times.
I also killed a Steelclaw so quickly that it only got a single attack off. That was before the nerf to Battle Fury, and my FM had a bunch of melee buffs. Getting an extra 7-8 dice attack with Piercing +2 goes a long way...
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The funny thing is that for the first 20 games or so I played the Priestess and many of her attacks are Ethereal so things like the Whirling Spirit never phased me, I just chopped it down like any other beastie. Now that I have expanded out and haven't played the Priestess in a while, I have to remind myself that Incorporeal is tougher than I remember.
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My thought is that in the near future with more access to pierce (Vorpal blade, Crit Strike) then Golem becomes more vulnerable. I predict if the meta shifts to stacking piercing then the Troll will see more play.
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Playing my Warlock I would ignore it and simply focus swinging on your mage. Between my warlock and either my vampire or Adramelech I am pretty sure I can deal more damage to you and your lower amount of health than you can to me and my higher amount of health. Killing creatures does not win you the game, killing the opposing mage does.
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When Critical Strike comes into play, I think killing an Iron Golem will be much more reasonable. At the moment it just isn't worth it (Acid Ball isn't worth casting on it unless you have +3 pierce already).
A level 2 Water attack spell that's Acid type might also work, if/when they ever release one.
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It depends on the situation, but there are definitely creatures you cannot waste time attacking in certain scenarios. If you can deal more damage to the opponent than he can deal to you, I say work around his creatures and go for the throat. If you can't deal more damage to the opponent than he can deal to you, you are going to have to find a way to get rid of some creatures.
The nice thing is that there are many ways to deal with a creature, especially if a creature has a weakness you can exploit. Teleport Traps and Teleport push the problem away. Banish is an option as a Wizard. The Forcemaster can push creatures away, which works well against slow creatures, or Sleep/Mind Control creatures without psychic immunity. Dark mages have a vast array of curses to use. I especially like Agony and Ghoul Rot.
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I talked about this a while ago. You have to look at the threat level compare to your average damage per attack then factor in that creature / conjurations remaining health. Once this is done you know on average the number of turns to kill that creature. Then ask yourself if this line of play is worth the time spent.
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I talked about this a while ago. You have to look at the threat level compare to your average damage per attack then factor in that creature / conjurations remaining health. Once this is done you know on average the number of turns to kill that creature. Then ask yourself if this line of play is worth the time spent.
I remember a time where I did something like that. Enemy brought out Iron Golem. I don't care which mage you are... when somebody brings out Iron Golem it is scary! I calculated that with 3 different creatures and my mage attacking every round it would take an average of 4 rounds to kill him. Yikes! 4 rounds to kill one creature is too long if you ask me. I think I would rather try to kill Earth Elemental to be honest. At least HE doesn't have 5 armor!
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Ah, I remember the good ole days! Pre-nerf, I one-shotted an IG with my buffed HoB + BF FM.
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Pre-nerf, I one-shotted an IG with my buffed HoB + BF FM.
I love being a game geek. Where else can you revel in this lingo?
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Sike more like Flip BS+ HoB HoB HoB HoB + BF That is 10 4 10.
:o
Kill you? ;D
:(
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Sike more like Flip BS+ HoB HoB HoB HoB + BF That is 10 4 10.
+ 3 dice from Dancing Scimitar
+ 5 dice Blast from Temple of Light
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Sike more like Flip BS+ HoB HoB HoB HoB + BF That is 10 4 10.
+ 3 dice from Dancing Scimitar
+ 5 dice Blast from Temple of Light
That is only if you waited till T 5/6. :P
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Unless your an earth Wizard. Forcemasters seem to lack the intelligence to get out of Tanglevines ;P
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Unless your an earth Wizard. Forcemasters seem to lack the intelligence to get out of Tanglevines ;P
That's because a large portion of the forcemaster's mental faculties are spent on FORCE, so there's not enough left over for common sense.
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That's because a large portion of the forcemaster's mental faculties are spent on FORCE, so there's not enough left over for common sense.
This is true. The Sensemaster was unavailable for duty. She fled the arena entirely and devoted her power to the culinary arts.