Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: The Dude on June 18, 2013, 01:50:00 AM
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I recently read a post from Nitrodavid asking what is the best delay tactics in the game, so I thought I would give some pointers to starting mages with a few ideas.
You have often heard in other games that the best defense is a good offense, and this holds especially true of Mage Wars. If your opponent is dead they cannot beat you, and as this is the objective in the game, nothing you do should do anything to hinder that goal. So, if you notice your opponent starting to build a swarm up, do not turtle! You are letting the opponent do what he wants to do while you are doing effectively nothing to win you the game. Go on the offensive! Drop a vine on them and start hurling boulders at their face. Make them react to what you are doing. If you have to teleport, use it in a way that will hinder the opponent's strategy while helping your own. You should never get yourself into a position that you could lose the game, unless you use that position to win the game. Casting six defenses on yourself is only giving you the chance to lose based on luck, and good tactical play should be the only defense you ever have to use. You should be using your forcefields to bait the opponent, not to run from him. Block should cast when you can use it gain tempo, not as a last ditch effort. So many games i've played where the opponent will be 5 away from dying and cast a block on themselves as a passive heal. This only delays the opponent, it doesn't stop them. As well, the good player will know that it is a block, hold the QC, and just Seeking dispel and then hammer or boulder your face. Making your opponent react to what you are doing will allow you to act better. You should never be reacting to a situation that will benefit your opponent, as it WILL lose you tempo. Let me give you an example:
Let's say I am an earth wizard, and I am at 20 damage and in the right Near Center of the board. My opponent is a forcemaster and is one zone away from me, threatening a 16 die attack w/ galvitar. Obviously you are going to have to move in that situation, but what is the most effective way to do this in order to gain tempo? Move one zone back and cast tanglevine. Now your opponent has to waste a turn attacking the tangle vine while you smash face and move further away. This defensive counterattack has probably cost the opponent the game, and it's all because instead of just moving , you went on the offensive and won the game because of it.
In closing to this short rant, casting spells to stop your opponent is most effective if you are also killing the opponent, and wasting time to get rid of things like Ghoul Rot and Regrowth will only lose you tempo, and the game. Realizing what is an actual threat and should be dealt with, and what is not, will often times be the difference between winning and losing.
Nitro, I hope this helps, and cheers!
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I think Block is a perfectly fine play if you have initiative and you know you can't trade attack spells with your opponent. Sure it's totally obvious (you're not going to get in range of an Earth Wizard or Warlord otherwise), but so is your opponent's intention if they get rid of it. Then, you get the chance to move before they do anyway. Though, I imagine that's the kind of "tempo gain" you're talking about though when you talk about "baiting." At least that's my take anyway.
Totally agree on knowing when to take the offensive and how that can be a deterrent to attacks, and that's where I think the value of attack spells truly lies. If you're on the winning side of a attack-spell war, you can force your opponent to do things he or she might not normally do, or risk taking boulders and fireballs to the face.
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I used to play Block, but recently I don't even include Block in my spellbooks. First of all, I feel like playing it gives the opponent a tempo advantage. Second of all, I feel like the alternatives to block - putting on armor, healing, casting health regeneration spells - are better options because they will help you in the long run; block is 1-and-done. Third of all, I personally tend to hate a lot of the non-permanent enchantments (Nullify, Retaliate, etc.), by which I mean the enchantments that are removed by things other than Dispel, Seeking Dispel, or Purge Magic.
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somehow i was lured to this thread, i wonder why.
So like every game the controller of the tempo is always in the more favorable position (chess, ball sports etc). so this means that every build that is able to control tempo better will inevitably be the better build. the tempo advantage can be made in the two following ways
- build your tempo faster then your opponents
- reduce your opponents tempo
the first is usually done by aggression builds, while the second is usually done by beat-down/control builds.
now as evident from a few posts in my forum, i am a player that wants to be able to run a slower build and eventually overpower the other mage. but i will not win that way, i will have to play one of those 2 personally unenjoyable game styles. why would any player risk running any spells that take 4-8 to pay off (includes all channel items, spawn-points and most conjurations), when any build that would run aggressive would be able to slow down your tempo within 3 turns.
i am still trying to find a way to run a slow build with a tempo that will ramp up as the game progresses (i admit it, that i love spawnpoints) but every time i run the game over in my head i cant fathom how to eventually gain tempo when the player who chooses the early game faster tempo will be bullying you from the start.
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i am still trying to find a way to run a slow build with a tempo that will ramp up as the game progresses (i admit it, that i love spawnpoints) but every time i run the game over in my head i cant fathom how to eventually gain tempo when the player who chooses the early game faster tempo will be bullying you from the start.
Please tell me when you find one!
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What cost me the match was grabbing FP over tele.
I know this and Padawan knows this. When against a player that does not understand how to control tempo they will die with only 1 or 2 miss plays in a match. The most interesting thing about our game was to have 2 people play at that level the entire match between Pad and I was about 14 rounds in 30 minutes. The players watching were shocked when we did not even need mana or damage counts for 80% of the match. Something as simple as a wall of stone between the center zones and buy you time in terms of LoS and Damage. Each round that the other player attacks a wall or vine is more time you have towards your plan. If the aggressive player stops to kills a vine they have in effect stunned themselves.
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By no means are control builds not viable. You just have to knw when to go controlling and when to go aggressive.
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I would say total control can can work but you must understand MW at a very in-depth level. When playing any build would need to understand the difference between a perceived threat and an actual threat. Being able to analyze the state of the game and narrow down whats plays should be made by each player and then respond accordingly is a skill that take a long time to learn. The step beyond that is to make predictive choices rather than reactive ones.
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i am still trying to find a way to run a slow build with a tempo that will ramp up as the game progresses (i admit it, that i love spawnpoints) but every time i run the game over in my head i cant fathom how to eventually gain tempo when the player who chooses the early game faster tempo will be bullying you from the start.
Please tell me when you find one!
I think playing things like mana crystals/mana flowers and spawnpoints are a huge waste of time and mana, but hey that it just me.
I could be mistaken, but I think the upcoming Druid mage is one of those mages that becomes more powerful over time. It might be that "slow" build you are looking for.
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I can tell you it is currently impossible to do with the current cards. mainly because you will never have enough mana to make an investment, protect that investment and not die. you have to do 3 things while the other mage only has to focus on one thing.
currently the only build that a slow build can beat is another slow build.
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I don't think Spawnpoints are totally worthless; I just think that it depends on the match-up, but that naturally makes them situational. Overall, I don't think and it hasn't been my experience that MW is a game you can go into expecting to play a certain mage the same way repeatedly against every other kind of mage. And that's a good thing; it rewards adaptable players who play a lot and try figure out the deep strengths and weaknesses of the mages.
Players should focus more on figuring out which mage has the advantage in the long run and which mage should try to end the game quickly.
Here's an example:
My favorite mage is the Warlock. Against the standard Priestess build, I know she's going to have the advantage in the long run simply because of her ability to gain life, heal really easily, and channel more mana. Also Holy school attack spells have the best chance to daze, but low damage, so I know that if I play aggressively with my Fire school attack spells, I can put more dice on her than she can put on me. I also know that all of her creatures are living, so I should press the advantage I have against living creatures with my Bloodreaper. When I get some damage on her, I should try to predict the heal with a Poisoned Blood to make sure she doesn't heal off all the damage I caused, or at least force her to delay her healing. Hopefully, if I do some of these things right, I'll kill her before she has a chance to overwhelm me with lots of healing and resiliency. If not, I'll have to play her game and try to kill her creatures and hope I can destroy them before they destroy me.
Against the Warlord, though, things are different. I need to be wary of engaging him early on, because his Earth school attack spells are pretty excellent and unlike my Fire school spells, can't be effectively countered with elemental resistances. I know that if that if a spell-slinging war were to ensue, I probably wouldn't come out on top. I also don't have the easy time with my Bloodreaper as I do with the Priestess; Iron Golems are powerful guards, and my reaper doesn't get any bonuses against them, so I need to be more careful and wear his forces down with curses and focus-fire Thorg so that Adramelech can get his dice on his mage instead of on his guards.
Increasing my channeling is also a safer bet because the Warlord can't effectively compete by putting in Mana Crystals, and Mana Flowers are already weak to the Fire school, as are his other conjurations. This could force the Warlord to go on the offensive so that he doesn't get overwhelmed later on, which isn't his strongest stance outside of Sir Corazin and some of his commands (the new Minotaurs that are coming out in a while will help him in this respect).
So basically, matchups get complicated and adaptivity is key. I'd recommend just playing the game, keeping an open mind, trying stuff out (even if you don't think it'll work, you'll never know till you get stomped :P ), and having fun while doing it. I know that's what I'm doing, and it's been going pretty well. Keep one eye open towards fun and the other towards competition and you won't be disappointed.
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that's really similar to the post I had before, vs the priest you are reducing her tempo while vs the warlord you are gaining tempo faster then him. so in neither of those cases would you want to play a card they takes time to develop. because priest can develop better then you and warlord will destroy your tempo. have you ever had a game where playing a card that takes time to develop (not including battle forge) is the best option for you?
to put it in other words every time you play a development card you sacrifice your current tempo to increase the rate your tempo increases. I have found out three reasons why development strategy doesn't work in mage wars the same way as other style of games.
1 unlike other card games (mtg, Pokemon etc) you know the opponent has access to a card to stop you at any time, ie does not need luck to find it in his hand. so any development you play he can start to counter from the very next planning phase.
2 unlike RTS games (StarCraft etc) the opponent doesn't know your running a slow strategy until they dedicate resources to find out (fog of war). and if they want to be aggressive they need to know what rock paper scissors build to use.
3 by definition by developing you are investing in a strategy so you are not able to adapt. the larger the investment the less you are able to change plans. once you pay 15 mana for a lair you need to stay with that plan for at least 7 turns for it to break even if you change plans before that you get a double penalty of loosing your mana on lair and being on plan B
there is some light over the horizon, this latest expansion has introduced some of the best value defence creatures the game has seen. my theory is have enough of them mage the other mage reconsider running balls deep and help you prevent your tempo from being slowed
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I love all of these discussions. I find the talk about "sacrifice tempo" to play a development card with a bit of dismay. Most of the conversations either go no development what so ever or if you do develop you drop a bunch in to cards that take a while to return on investment. What I almost never hear about is something in the middle (which I think is how I play). So I drop a Mana Crystal Rd 1 or 2. Yes that is a Action that I could use to beat up with or buff up with or creature up. However I find that unless I make a dumb mistake, my games most of the time go at least into the low to mid-teens turn wise. That is 10 / 15 mana channeled over all. But that is not the big advantage, which is, I now can cast slightly more powerful spells each and every turn. Many times with 1 or 2 left over, which over the course of the game lets me throw out hidden enchantments without the fear of not being able to pay for them later in the game or melee a round and easily have enough for a big. Now if you drop a Battle Forge, a Spawn Point, and a couple of crystals out in the first two rounds, you have put so much into the future for return it is really hard to get that back.
I hope I haven't meandered to far a field to get my point across, which is that a slower build can work but you just can't drop your entire mana for the future as you do have to live in the here and now also. Most of my builds are to counter rushes and argo. I think that I have gotten better at countering these as time as gone on. The other thing that really helped me along was Shad0ws FM Hand-Solo book, as I really got the understanding of the rush mechanics and it has allowed me to develop (what I hope are) strong counter rush/early agro type builds.
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Well, I think mana conjurations and equipment, such as rings and crystals, are perfectly viable. They're very inexpensive and I can't imagine you losing because you cast one of them. You'll probably lose more because you didn't think ahead enough, or attacked when you should have guarded, threw a spell at the opposing mage when you should have been destroying his creatures, etc.
The problem with Spawnpoints isn't what they do, it's how much they cost. It's fine to try and control the early game if you sense that you can't just out-aggro your opponent, but does that mean you need to spend upwards of 10+ mana just win the late game? Not really.
Perhaps it's a mundane example, but think about it this way; you wouldn't use a sledgehammer to swat a fly, right? You'd use a flyswatter (derp). Casting an expensive spawnpoint is a similar kind of over-reaction. There's simply no reason to spend tons of mana to solve a problem when you can solve it by spending less. I suck at math, but that's simple economics.
I think Spawnpoints probably have a place in certain mage match-ups, or perhaps certain builds of certain match-ups, but to expect them to be a centerpiece of a mage's standard, "go-to" build isn't really reasonable. I'm still trying to perfect the standard, tight builds that define a mage's go-to book, and from my experience, those builds have a lot to do with the powerful, nifty creatures in the game.
It makes sense too; powerful, large creatures are the most difficult kind of card to solve in this game, and usually if a card is difficult to solve, it's probably competitive.
And that's fine by me. I love creature combat, watching angels and demons fight, knights defend against bloodthirsty werewolves, orcs and golems take on flying brain-things, etc. I don't think MW would be nearly as cool, or as tactical, if the game allowed mages to stare at each other while they crap out tons of small creatures.
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I love all of these discussions. I find the talk about "sacrifice tempo" to play a development card with a bit of dismay. Most of the conversations either go no development what so ever or if you do develop you drop a bunch in to cards that take a while to return on investment. What I almost never hear about is something in the middle (which I think is how I play). So I drop a Mana Crystal Rd 1 or 2. Yes that is a Action that I could use to beat up with or buff up with or creature up. However I find that unless I make a dumb mistake, my games most of the time go at least into the low to mid-teens turn wise. That is 10 / 15 mana channeled over all. But that is not the big advantage, which is, I now can cast slightly more powerful spells each and every turn. Many times with 1 or 2 left over, which over the course of the game lets me throw out hidden enchantments without the fear of not being able to pay for them later in the game or melee a round and easily have enough for a big. Now if you drop a Battle Forge, a Spawn Point, and a couple of crystals out in the first two rounds, you have put so much into the future for return it is really hard to get that back.
I hope I haven't meandered to far a field to get my point across, which is that a slower build can work but you just can't drop your entire mana for the future as you do have to live in the here and now also. Most of my builds are to counter rushes and argo. I think that I have gotten better at countering these as time as gone on. The other thing that really helped me along was Shad0ws FM Hand-Solo book, as I really got the understanding of the rush mechanics and it has allowed me to develop (what I hope are) strong counter rush/early agro type builds.
lol wow, way to steal my thunder! Great minds and all that, I suppose.
Seriously though, I'm glad we seem to be on the same page.
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Battle forge is the only spawnpoint I will use ATM.
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here is some ideal analysis.
battle forge is the equivalent to a mana crystal + a free quick action.
battle forge cost 8
crystal cost 5
so you spend 3 mana to get a free quick action per turn.
lair is equivalent to two mana flowers plus a full action.
lair cost 15 mana
2 flowers cost 10 mana
so you spend 5 mana to get a free FULL action per turn.
so in an ideal case battle forge and lair are similar in there efficiency. but I think I figured out the problem. at the start of the game you will never have enough mana to use 2 full action moves(lair), you will have enough for 2 quick actions (battle forge). perhaps if I changed my mindset to save spawn points for mid-late game where I want there turn advantage more then there mana advantage I could get spawn points to work...... I must go back to excel
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Seriously though, I'm glad we seem to be on the same page.
Swarms are a whole other deal though, you can not let them get out of hand....
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Seriously though, I'm glad we seem to be on the same page.
Swarms are a whole other deal though, you can not let them get out of hand....
Define swarm?
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I think it all comes down to experience. Once you have an in depth knowledge of the game and good experience under your belt you can determine whether or not control or aggression is the best move on a game by game basis. If I can get away with Arcane ring and two mana crystals with my wizard I'm happy to do so. Like wise if i need to ramp up aggression I will do that too.
The player who wins is the one who can be flexible and plays better than he's opponent. I realise that some builds are more prominent at the moment, but each have a place- after all the winner of the origins tournament used a spawn point..
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really he used a temple that happened to be a spawn point, but I see the point.
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here is some ideal analysis.
battle forge is the equivalent to a mana crystal + a free quick action.
battle forge cost 8
crystal cost 5
so you spend 3 mana to get a free quick action per turn.
lair is equivalent to two mana flowers plus a full action.
lair cost 15 mana
2 flowers cost 10 mana
so you spend 5 mana to get a free FULL action per turn.
so in an ideal case battle forge and lair are similar in there efficiency. but I think I figured out the problem. at the start of the game you will never have enough mana to use 2 full action moves(lair), you will have enough for 2 quick actions (battle forge). perhaps if I changed my mindset to save spawn points for mid-late game where I want there turn advantage more then there mana advantage I could get spawn points to work...... I must go back to excel
Yeah, I did a similar calculation. Also, the mana is committed to creatures. When you have the mana, you don't have the actions and vice versa.
I have been thinking of clerics to the Asyrian temple. The clerics speed op the return and can be swithched to guards, when the enemy comes. So I need to summon more guarding creatures and several because the enemy has a big tempo-advantage. By the time the temple would start to pay off I would be out of creatures to summon.
What we need is an expendable spawnpoint. 5 mana (according to your calculations) for a single-use spawn point and 8 for one with channeling.
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"if you summon creatures" that's what I ment by ideal case.
temple 10 mana 1 channel. now each cleric is 5 mana and can add channel by 1. so they are effectively a mana crystal.
the clerics psy them selves of in 5 turns and a temple and 2 clerics take 8 turns total to pay off (clerics pay themselves off before boosting temple).
the most efficient (reliable) spawn point booster is archers tower and garrison post. at 4 mana for 1 channel they pay off in 4 turns while still granting other buffs (quite possibly his trade for no arcane Chanel abilities).
of course in the most ideal scenario gate of voltari and pentagram are the best but you can't control the mana you get.
man I should print a thesis on the amount of excel info I got
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"if you summon creatures" that's what I ment by ideal case.
temple 10 mana 1 channel. now each cleric is 5 mana and can add channel by 1. so they are effectively a mana crystal.
the clerics psy them selves of in 5 turns and a temple and 2 clerics take 8 turns total to pay off (clerics pay themselves off before boosting temple).
the most efficient (reliable) spawn point booster is archers tower and garrison post. at 4 mana for 1 channel they pay off in 4 turns while still granting other buffs (quite possibly his trade for no arcane Chanel abilities).
of course in the most ideal scenario gate of voltari and pentagram are the best but you can't control the mana you get.
man I should print a thesis on the amount of excel info I got
I consider Clerics to have repaid themselves in 6 turns simply because they put mana in the action phase rather than the upkeep. While the temple summons in the ready stage.
Turn 1:
QC Temple and FC cleric.
Turn 2:
only 1 mana on temple during ready stage - temple cannot summon anything as min 2 is required.
cleric puts mana on temple that can be used in ready stage round 3.
When you summon a mana crystal, use harmonize you get the mana increase so its ready to USE the turn after.
Big difference imo.
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When you summon a mana crystal, use harmonize you get the mana increase so its ready to USE the turn after.
Big difference imo.
Did you mean spawnpoint? You can't use Harmonize on mana crystals right?
Well, this is my best attempt at a Priestess spawnpoint opening. I think it is doable, but I also suspect it can be shut down effectively, especially with early zone attacks.
T1: 20 mana, Temple of Asyra+Harmonize, 6m
T2: 16m+2 (on Temple), clericsx2, 8m
T3: 18m+2, Staff of Asyra+ some armor, 3m+4 (the clerics pray)
T4: 13m+6, Temple of Light+Gauntlets or Leather Boots or face-down enchantment, 1-2m (+8)
T5: 11/12m+10, Valshalla+attack, 0-1m
The clerics have prayed two times at the temple, making their effective cost 3. They should now be considered Blocks that happen to power Valshalla when they die. Opponent will still be ahead, but two daze-chances and Valshallas stun-chance will hopefully buy some time.
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You can't use Harmonize on mana crystals right?
Correct, neither Mana Crystal nor Mana Flower have the Channeling attribute.
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Harmonize cannot be used on Crystals.
Not that was not my intention with the sentence - its missing something
When you summon a mana crystal, use harmonize "or cast a spawnpoint" you get the mana increase so its ready to USE the turn after.
Big difference imo.
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i am still trying to find a way to run a slow build with a tempo that will ramp up as the game progresses (i admit it, that i love spawnpoints) but every time i run the game over in my head i cant fathom how to eventually gain tempo when the player who chooses the early game faster tempo will be bullying you from the start.
Please tell me when you find one!
I think playing things like mana crystals/mana flowers and spawnpoints are a huge waste of time and mana, but hey that it just me.
I could be mistaken, but I think the upcoming Druid mage is one of those mages that becomes more powerful over time. It might be that "slow" build you are looking for.
That's not true, wizards and beastmasters will benefit very well from both of them, especially if you are not going against a super aggresive Mage or build that wants to play slow.