Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: SirJasonCrage on March 02, 2018, 04:24:11 AM
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Heyho.
With the thornlasher epidemic ravaging the meta, I'm trying to find ways to weed out the root of the problem.
I've been thinking about using Dragon's Breath to get rid of the tree from a distance.
Now imagine the Tree in A1 and my Warlock in A4. The druid's not stupid and has conjured a wall of thorns to block me from attacking.
Do I have to see both targets for my Dragon's breath at the start of the attack?
If that wall is between A1 and A2, can I attack the wall as an attack onto A2 and, after successfully destroying it, now choose a target in A1, since vision is no longer blocked?
Furthermore, if that wall is between A2 and A3, can I attack the Wall as a target in A2 (where the wall technically is, too) even though I can't see A2, and still use the second attack on the tree in A1?
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Heyho.
With the thornlasher epidemic ravaging the meta, I'm trying to find ways to weed out the root of the problem.
I've been thinking about using Dragon's Breath to get rid of the tree from a distance.
Now imagine the Tree in A1 and my Warlock in A4. The druid's not stupid and has conjured a wall of thorns to block me from attacking.
Do I have to see both targets for my Dragon's breath at the start of the attack?
[mwcard=MWBG1A02]Dragon's Breath[/mwcard]
No. The target line only requires a (single) creature or conjuration. Compare to [mwcard=MW1I28]Teleport[/mwcard] (and others) that require more than 1 target.
If that wall is between A1 and A2, can I attack the wall as an attack onto A2 and, after successfully destroying it, now choose a target in A1, since vision is no longer blocked?
The card text specifies that you may make the second attack after completing the first, so it stands to reason that you could attack beyond the wall after attacking and destroying the wall with the first attack.
Furthermore, if that wall is between A2 and A3, can I attack the Wall as a target in A2 (where the wall technically is, too) even though I can't see A2, and still use the second attack on the tree in A1?
Definitely. This is how some archers and Ballista (e.g. cards with minimum range of 1), are able to make ranged attacks against a wall bordering their zone. You need line of site to the target (the wall), and the wall must be at the correct range (both 0 and 1, in Ballista's case; both range 1 and 2 in your example).
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you check LoS to the second target befor begining the second attack.
It seems logical that if a wall is on a border of A2, a target in A1 or on a border of A1 is "1 zone farther away".
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in this case could both attacks target the same wall between A1 and A2?
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First off, iNano78 is correct in all of their answers to the original questions. But then this:
you check LoS to the second target befor begining the second attack.
It seems logical that if a wall is on a border of A2, a target in A1 or on a border of A1 is "1 zone farther away".
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in this case could both attacks target the same wall between A1 and A2?
is a very interesting question. I want to say the answer is no, and I have a few different reasons for why, but I'll admit to being unsure without further research which I don't have the time for right now. First, when it says second target, that could be interpreted as meaning it has to be a different target from the first. I know of some games that would interpret it that way and some that wouldn't, and I can't really recall which way Mage Wars does off the top of my head right now. But I'm pretty sure it has to be different.
But then another possible issue is when it says the second target must be IN an adjacent zone. Since walls are not actually in a zone, that would preclude them from EVER being the secondary target (though they could be the first target). Looking at the card, I am 95% sure that RAW this is the case, but that has some pretty significant implications for how the spell can be used so I don't want to say 100% that this is the correct interpretation. But just because you use the zones for determining range (because that's the only way to measure range in the game) does not mean the walls are actually in those zones.
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I dislike that walls are also not in the zones they border. they should be subjected to zone attacks etc.
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I dislike that walls are also not in the zones they border. they should be subjected to zone attacks etc.
[mwcard=FWI02]Earthquake[/mwcard]
Underused, imho.
*edit* Then again, I play multiplayer Domination, where it's common for key conjurations to be in adjacent zones, often separated by an enemy wall, with several creatures I'd be happy to Slam (e.g. de-guard the guards!). And it's a format where the Warlord is among the better mages, so Earthquake is even in-school!
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IN
that answers my question, I think.
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in this case could both attacks target the same wall between A1 and A2?
Surely the answer is No.
The card says: "Dragon's Breath may attack a second target (similar to a Sweeping attack)"
Sweeping says: "one attack action which comprises 2 attacks against different targets in the same zone"
Because a Sweeping attack has to have two targets in the same zone and DB does not, DB cannot be given the Sweeping trait, but surely the phrase "similar to a Sweeping attack" means that we are instructed to follow the rules for Sweeping for all other aspects of the DB attack.
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"The second target must be in an adjacent zone, 1 zone farther away than the first target. Both Targets must be within range."
So at the end of the first attack you have to target a second target; so that target must be different than the first target.
Then to determine if that target is legal you have to do the check list:
Is it in an adjacent zone?
is it exactly 1 zone further away?
are both targets (first and second) in range?
Once all those are correct, we are in step 1 on the second attack for those keeping score, then we can proceed to step 2 and so on.
Also it looks like walls can never be the second target, since they do not qualify for either of the first two conditions......
cheers
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Sweeping
;D
this answers my question again!
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Apologies for resurrecting the thread, but the previous discussion may be helpful in considering my follow-up:
Assume that the caster of Dragon's Breath is in the near center (B2), and that there is a valid target in D2, and another in D3 (i.e. both D2 and D3 are in LoS and have a creature or conjuration in each). Also assume that there is a wall between D2 and D3.
May Dragon's Breath make its attack against the target in D2, and then bypass the wall between D2 and D3 to attack the target in D3? (RAW it seems so... the second target is one zone farther away... but you would think that the wall might "get in the way" of the breath.)
Does it matter what the wall's characteristics (blocks LoS, passage attacks, blocks passage) are in this particular case? I would not think so... which again makes me wonder about how the breath would bypass a steel wall to get behind it and attack the second target.... (It feels like another magical Tsunami effect, flowing over the wall, which still makes no sense to me.)
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Apologies for resurrecting the thread, but the previous discussion may be helpful in considering my follow-up:
Assume that the caster of Dragon's Breath is in the near center (B2), and that there is a valid target in D2, and another in D3 (i.e. both D2 and D3 are in LoS and have a creature or conjuration in each). Also assume that there is a wall between D2 and D3.
May Dragon's Breath make its attack against the target in D2, and then bypass the wall between D2 and D3 to attack the target in D3? (RAW it seems so... the second target is one zone farther away... but you would think that the wall might "get in the way" of the breath.)
Does it matter what the wall's characteristics (blocks LoS, passage attacks, blocks passage) are in this particular case? I would not think so... which again makes me wonder about how the breath would bypass a steel wall to get behind it and attack the second target....
When you go through the process:
Is it in an adjacent zone?
is it exactly 1 zone further away?
are both targets (first and second) in range?
You have to check LoS when you check range, when making an attack or casting a spell. If you do not have LoS then that target is not a legal target of the attack / spell
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You have to check LoS when you check range, when making an attack or casting a spell. If you do not have LoS then that target is not a legal target of the attack / spell
I thought it was "You have to check LoS when you TARGET something for an attack or spell casting."
i.e. Calculating range does not require a LoS, but targeting an object does.
That is the nuisance we have been using in our games.
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You have to check LoS when you check range, when making an attack or casting a spell. If you do not have LoS then that target is not a legal target of the attack / spell
I thought it was "You have to check LoS when you TARGET something for an attack or spell casting."
i.e. Calculating range does not require a LoS, but targeting an object does.
That is the nuisance we have been using in our games.
Any and everytime you count range, LoS is also checked.
From page 17 of the Core rules:
LINE OF SIGHT
In order to cast a spell or make a ranged attack
against a target, you must have a clear “line of sight”
(called “LoS” for short). Normally, a creature has LoS
to the entire game board, even into zones that are
out of range. But, some walls block LoS. You cannot
cast a spell or make a ranged attack through a wall
that blocks LoS.
When you count range to your target, you must also
check if you have clear line of sight (LoS). Draw an
imaginary straight line from the center of the attacker’s
or caster’s zone to the center of the target’s zone. LoS
is blocked if the line crosses through a zone border
that has a wall on it with the blocks LoS trait. Walls do
not normally block LoS if the line crosses diagonally
through the corner of a wall border, as long as at least
one side of that corner does not block LoS. When
drawing LoS to a wall, draw it to the center of the
zone border.
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LoS has nothing to do with my question folks....
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So, it is slightly pertinent to DaveW's question, though his question doesn't hinge on it, but I do want to answer the debate regarding LOS really quick. wtcannonjr is correct that you only have to check LOS when targeting something. Not necessarily when checking range. If Kharhaz will reread the quote from page 17, it says "When you count range to your target you must also check to see if you have clear LOS." I'm not thinking of anything off the top of my head that cares about range and doesn't target something though. Every spell has a target, guaranteed. So this might really be a moot point.
Now, regarding DaveW's question, the important thing here is actually regarding the source of the second attack. The source is still the caster. Unlike Chain Lightning, it is not bouncing from the first target to the second. Instead, like the card says, it is more like a sweeping attack, wherein both attacks come from the caster who is just catching multiple targets in this jet of flame. Be it because the flame is so wide/long, or because the caster pivots and redirects, that's up to your thematic imagination.
But mechanically, you basically are making two attacks coming from the caster, one after the other. A wall between those two targets doesn't matter. However, if there was a wall between the caster and one of the targets, that may stop it because LOS from the caster does matter. Because you have to target them.
I hope that makes sense. I'm a little sicky atm.
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DaveW,
With tongue in cheek and a wink to a somewhat infamous discussion about the exact size and dimensions of walls, it might be said that if you are looking basically straight down along a wall (as in your example), then perhaps the wall has close to zero depth (as the zone border it sits on does), and your dragon's breath will just treat the wall as not there at all...
;)
Merry Christmas everyone! May 2019 bring many more Arena adventures to you all.
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My bad DaveW, I was focused on the LoS blocking bit at the end.
Apologies for resurrecting the thread, but the previous discussion may be helpful in considering my follow-up:
Assume that the caster of Dragon's Breath is in the near center (B2), and that there is a valid target in D2, and another in D3 (i.e. both D2 and D3 are in LoS and have a creature or conjuration in each). Also assume that there is a wall between D2 and D3.
May Dragon's Breath make its attack against the target in D2, and then bypass the wall between D2 and D3 to attack the target in D3? (RAW it seems so... the second target is one zone farther away... but you would think that the wall might "get in the way" of the breath.)
Does it matter what the wall's characteristics (blocks LoS, passage attacks, blocks passage) are in this particular case? I would not think so... which again makes me wonder about how the breath would bypass a steel wall to get behind it and attack the second target.... (It feels like another magical Tsunami effect, flowing over the wall, which still makes no sense to me.)
In your example, D2 and D3 are both legal targets from B3, so the LoS block between D2 and D3 doesn't matter.
Chain Lighting is similar, but the wording on CL is that the source changes, so LoS is drawn from the creature just damaged by CL, not the mage. Dragon's Breath states that it functions like a sweeping attack, and the source doesn't change, so it is always the mage.
If it helps the flame blast is a huge fire blast that hits two zones and not a fire spell that bounces from target to target, that's the idea they were going for.
For clarification, Tsunami gets around walls by never having to target a zone after the first one, the effect just happens and resolves.
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Thanks guys... it makes more sense to me now. The idea of "pivoting" really helped me understand the concept.
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Can Dragon's Breath make 90 degree turn? I thought that one zone away would follow same rules as push's 'away'.
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Can Dragon's Breath make 90 degree turn? I thought that one zone away would follow same rules as push's 'away'.
Yes it can.
X | Y | D
A | B | C
If the mage is casting it at a creature in zone X, for example, then all of the conditions are true for the second attack to hit a creature in zone Y.
Is the new target in an adjacent zone?
Is the new target 1 zone farther away?
Are both the targets within range of the spell?