Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: DeckBuilder on August 13, 2013, 08:01:53 AM
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I keep seeing card names I don't have, despite buying all expansions (available in the UK).
Ballista
Meditation Amulet
Gravikor
I then realised these were promo cards and I read that they will be released eventually.
Sectarus (which is so out of place in that expansion) is evidence this is being carried out.
Now I realise "Kickstarter" donations are deserving of special unique rewards.
I certainly don't begrudge anyone who donates to the gaming hobby like that.
But these promo cards seem to be everywhere.
I don't know what people have done to deserve them.
But they have access to abilities that none of us mere mortals have access to.
I am a huge fan of AW and wish them every success with this game.
Just like FFG revised expectations of component quality (from AH!), AW have raised the bar further.
Unfortunately CoK costing me than FvW seemed odd (by all means move to paper boxing).
But overall, I am constantly singing the praises of "this independent games company called AW".
I hope AW shame FFG to similar Return On Investment (I doubt it as FFG is like Apple, once the upstart etc).
However, their decision to give access to cards with competitive abilities only to limited sources (outside of their Kickstarter base who deserve it) may possibly create a two-tier community...
I do appreciate that Tom Vassel's weighty recommendation is worthy of a "thank you" gesture at Dice Tower so AW are simply being nice, rewarding their advocates/evangelists and what they perceive to be the most active base (US games convention goers). As a marketing professional, I appreciate this is simply sensible promotion marketing.
However, this does create a bit of annoyance from the others. Is it really fair some players can cast spells that others simply can't? This is in a LCG where every expansion is bought by fans.
I would have no problem if these rewards (exc. Kickstarters who deserve all they get) were special artwork foil cards signed by the artist or Bryan Pope himself. The marketing promotion rewards should be "collector" cards and certainly not competitive cards that I've got and you haven't because I paid a donation to Dice Tower.
I really want Mage Wars to become as big as Magic (more accessible and fun, Magic is more cerebral). That is why I'd urge the Arcane Wars Marketing Department to think twice before releasing competitive spells to a very limited base. Why not just stick to foils, hallmarks, different artwork, signed etc? Or if it has to be a brand new spell (which then takes up space in a later expansion out-of-place), at least make it for some niche casual play strategy and not competitive.
Just to reiterate: I am a huge fan and will continue purchasing the product (barring further significant value erosion beyond CoK compared to FvW) no matter what AW do on this subject. But as a marketing consultant by profession, I can see the hole they are potentially digging by not promoting a "level playing field" when it comes to access to spells.
Keep up the good work in all other areas (well, apart from the GenCon tiebreaker and ToL pre-emptive errata to allow for more temples). The product is very good, very accessible and just ticks the Ameritrash "fun" box. So well done guys for providing so much fun to all of us.
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While it may be true that people that go to the conventions and get those promo cards, as well as those that did the dice tower kickstarter to get them may have access to those cards sooner, all that does for them is give them a little extra time to playtest them in their builds. The promo cards are not legal for tournament play until they are released to everyone.
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There are two reasons why I don't mind the fact that there are promo cards.
1. As DeckBuilder pointed out. "These were promo cards and I read that they will be released eventually."
2. As Doma0997 pointed out. "The promo cards are not legal for tournament play until they are released to everyone."
WOOOOOOO MAGE WARS!
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I do wish I had a Gravikor though... grrr...
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I do wish I had a Gravikor though... grrr...
Understand your frustration. Gravikor is sweet! Hopefully it will be in Druid vs. Necromancer....
You could always make a proxy - since it's not legal in competitive events now anyway, perhaps your opponents wouldn't mind.
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Exactly. People do play Gravikor. While others wish they had one.
How many tournaments are there? Now compare it to the competitive games played (is there any other type?).
In 99.999% of games played, promos cause imbalance. Some players have an advantage that all others don't.
This is worse if a card is just sprung on you. What? All my angels lose flying? Where is the skill if you can't even anticipate what your opponent could play?
I have not faced a promo-only card yet. I know what every spell distributed does, its cost, quick/full action and range. I can gaze at my opponent's mana and anticipate. But I know nothing about promo cards really beyond what I surmise from references. When I finally face a promo card (rare in the UK), I think I will feel hard done by.
Maybe I'm too competitive for my own good. Blessed with more disposal income than my peers, I try to curb my wallet advantage. But I guess I can always trawl E-Bay to get these cards that others could play against me?
This game is not the same as say promo cards in (great fun) Spartacus. There exist powerful promo gladiators but they may never appear at auction and if they do, they can be gained by any player. Here we are talking about allowing an uneven playing field in the overwhelming majority of games played. How can that be fair? A better paradigm is Magic because it has 2 opposing competitive builds. Magic promo cards are usually very good cards (some unplayably too big in tournament but loved by casuals) with new artwork and foil or embossed. But they were never cards that did not already exist.
As a marketing consultant, I would advise a client thus: because these unique promo cards are so competitive, this is not a good idea in the long run...
I say this because I love the game and want it to thrive.
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A lot of promos are also from the Organized Play Kits too.
So, if you can work out league play with a store in your area (or if there already is one) you can get an influx of promo cards into your play groups. Each kit has 4 different promos in multiples to give to the Winners, Coordinators, and accomplishing other game objectives during the sessions.
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I'm just a little confused i guess. I mean, they are not legal in tournament play, and they have the foil mage wars symbol. If you're worried about seeing them in casual play, just be like hey, no using unreleased promo cards until they are put into a set we can all buy. I wouldn't use a promo card against a friend without telling them i want to test it first. It's not like the people who get promo cards are the only ones ever getting them, they are getting them early and they can only be used in friendly games..
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Yeah, saying "let's not use promo cards" when making an appointment for a game should be an easy thing to do :P
I also find that the promos do give players the possibility to focus more on certain strategies than would otherwise be less competitive, but I haven't found any overpowered ones yet...
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In 99.999% of games played, promos cause imbalance. Some players have an advantage that all others don't.?
Yes, promos can give an unbalanced unfair advantage to a player that has them compared to someone who does not. HOWEVER I think that if you went anywhere in the world to play a friendly game of Mage Wars or even went to a competitive scene that if you said "We should play without promos so that our game is fair since not everyone has access to them and they are OFFICIALLY NOT ALLOWED IN OFFICIAL Mage Wars tournament play" everyone would be fine with that.
Think about Magic the Gathering for example. You could make yourself a deck from aaaallll the cards ever printed, however when you go to play, competitively or not, the majority of players will require you to adhere to the rules of a format. Lets take the "Standard" format for example.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrstandard
Even though Magic has many many cards the format restricts which you are allowed to play. They even have ban lists for cards that become overpowered.
Think of Mage Wars the same way. Sure there are these promo cards but when it comes down to it, they are officially not allowed in tournament play. So when you play Mage Wars, just follow Mage Wars tournament play rules.
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Same goes to the OFFICIAL Arcane Wonders errata cards Battle Fury, Hand of Bim-Shalla and Temple of Light. The 'official' text on these cards was changed but the text on my physical cards at home most definitely didn't. (sad face) So what prevents me or anyone else from following the old text on the cards when playing? Well the fact that the old text is 'officially wrong' and not legal in official tournament play.
Official haha
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Well you can play with the old wording, but i feel you would eventually come across that odd game where someone tells you that you're playing it wrong. If you're playing for your own personal enjoyment, do what you wish, but i know I'm trying to get a competitive scene going where i am, so i have to keep up to date on everything.
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I run decks with both Promo's and without. If you play on Octgn, its deck builder includes most Promo's. So you can get the chance to play with them if you would like. If you are a fan of Vassel go out to the Dice Tower web site and click on the Donate link. You might find something there that will bring a smile to your face. Even the guys across the Pond can take advantage for another buck......
With all that said, I really do enjoy playing the Promo's. Ballista rocks along with the Temple High Guard. I look forward to the time these are officially released!
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Thank you for being so honest about you loving playing your promos, sIKE. I would love playing them too.
Look guys. I know I'm having a bit of a moan because I can't buy these promo cards normally from a retailer. But I can't be the only one who feels this way, surely? Doesn't anyone see the 2-tier play that this will create?
I only have a vague idea what these cards do from references (Ballista is like Akiro's Hammer for every mage, I assume?) but when I am strategising (book-building), I just feel frustratingly restricted because I do not have, say, any Ballista to build zonal control better.
As for them not being overpowered, maybe so but they are pivotal. Out of the available-to-buy cards, Sectarus sticks out as a once-promo card. There may be others but there isn't an official list let alone description of them out there (so we mortals can anticipate them in play). Now I contend a Curse-focused Warlock strategy 100% needs Sectarus. Ballista for zonal control. Seems to me these promo cards are pretty important "pieces" when assembling certain strategies.
That's what's galling. You feel handicapped when strategising. The solution you say is to insist no Promo cards. But then you are crippling the opponent's build who relied on those cards when building their book.
So what happens then is you get formats, like the multiple formats in Magic. You get "Promo cards allowed" format and "No promo cards" format. This is mentioned by sIKE who has books in both formats.
There is also the assumption of play balance. With each release, there will be new threats where current spells are insufficient counters but also new counters to those new threats. We assume that these timed releases are playtested so that cards remain balanced. But with the preview cards, we get these cards early without their counter. Cards are released in bursts because they shake up the meta in combination. But a promo card breaks that paradigm. It's out-of-place, early without its counter cards.
Here's a hypothetical example. If Bridge Troll was a promo card and available before Circle of Fire (staple in Warlock, Fire Wizard and many other builds), it would obviously be stronger during that period of time. Because it was not released in its proper timing. A card's strength is influenced by the meta so early releases imbalance.
I appreciate the AW forum is where there will be the totally die-hard fans who would never criticise aspects of the game (even if it is meant as constructive criticism). Also the active base who benefit most from promotion marketing. But I ran the gauntlet here as this is the one place where maybe your voice may be heard by AW and your thoughts considered.
I suspect there may be a silent consumer base out there who feel second class. I suspect that if you compare units sold (core sets) vs. maximum promo cards of 1 type out there x2 (assumes everyone with 1 copy of most common promo card has 2 core sets on average), you will find the second class players are the majority. As the game rockets up in popularity (it will as it is a very good product), assuming the same penetration of promo cards out there, this majority will only widen.
What is happening here is that the very sensible promotion marketing strategy to excite and reward activists and advocates will backfire by creating more resentment than evangelism. You see it everyday when you see offers "unavailable to existing customers". All I am advising here (with the best intentions as none of my local meta have promos either) is AW reconsider the current "competitive unavailable preview cards" strategy that works really well when small but, as the game grows bigger, they have to transition out because there are diminishing returns in the trade-off of exciting activists vs. outsider resentment. Just make these promo cards less pivotal to the competitive strategies (e.g. the same level as Sunfire Amulet, a cool card albeit prolonging games moving against tournament format, certainly not a "sideboard" card like Eagleclaw Boots which can be key in certain match-ups). Apparently promos are already foil so this must continue. But I certainly think foil/embossed versions of existing cards will still be valued ("bling") without creating an uneven playing field.
This isn't an attack on the game, just sound advice from someone who is paid to consult on company marketing strategies. Because, let's make it clear. I really love this fun (yet deep) game. The value-for-money components of the core set and forcemaster expansion made me a big fan of Arcane Wonders. I wish them every success for shaking up the gaming industry's cost-component expectations (they could have pitched at FFG level which was the gold standard after Eagle Games ended). That's why I'm spending time explaining why their current "small company" promotion marketing strategy needs to be phased out to just cools cards, not strategy-pivotal cards.
Finally, thank you AW for hours of entertainment. I hope the game goes ballistic.
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I completely agree with OP.
For me the current promos take the game 1 step in the direction of a CCG
Lately i have been annoyed by the promos and CoK and it has actually made me step away from the game for more than 2 months.
Here is why.
The Promos will take up signifigant space in the strategy threads - threads i cannot participate in or learn from because i dont have access to discussed promos.
Also - as OP has explained - the promos are not balanced because they counter cards have not been released, which is why i would never play with promos unless BOTH me and my opponent had access to ALL promos, and still i would prefer to play without.
The CoK was more than 1 month later released where i live, and i bought it as soon as i realized it was available -which is what I believe is 2 or 3 days after it actually WAS available due to me getting tired of checking stores homepages every day.
Anyway... As it takes quite some time for me to build a spellbook i didnt really feel like doing this 1 month before release in the US... add this that it was available almost 1.5 month later and the result for me was no spellbook making in 2.5 months.
I realize that there probaly aint much you can do about the CoK release not being released at the same time in different regions of the world but that, and for me seeing more and more promos released that i dont have access to just took away my inspiration.
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The Promos will take up signifigant space in the strategy threads - threads i cannot participate in or learn from because i dont have access to discussed promos.
Okay. This point I 100% agree with. I theorycraft and theorycraft and find a flaw or a opening in a build on the forums and mention it and the response is a lot of times. "Well just use gravikor or another promo" ahahah.
So yes, the above point I agree with. However I still think it's not a big deal AT ALL to just play without promos. The decks I build are all built without even considering promos. Unless they are officially available to everyone I don't give them much thought.
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The Promos will take up signifigant space in the strategy threads - threads i cannot participate in or learn from because i dont have access to discussed promos.
Okay. This point I 100% agree with. I theorycraft and theorycraft and find a flaw or a opening in a build on the forums and mention it and the response is a lot of times. "Well just use gravikor or another promo" ahahah.
So yes, the above point I agree with. However I still think it's not a big deal AT ALL to just play without promos. The decks I build are all built without even considering promos. Unless they are officially available to everyone I don't give them much thought.
Well i probaly forgot that it kinda annoys me to have the feeling of not having access to it all.
And its probaly because cant avoid thinking about that sexy ballista (atleast on paper it looks sexy), and i cant use it... having to wait an unknown potientially infinite amount of time before its released is just annoying for me.
I understand other people dont care and you probaly have the right approach... but i honostly feel like im missing out in something. Also i want to add that wanna of the key describtions of MW that made me buy core, tome 1, tome 2 and FvsWL all at once just after discovering it on BGG and then seeing all the vids hyping myself to the moon and back more than once was the NON collectiable part... TBH i would probaly still play MtG if it wasnt such a money sink.
I realize that my feelings on this subject might seem silly to some, but never the less thats how it is.
i HATE promos
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Another point..
I am not (or rather no longer) an OCD completist. But there are alot out there in the gaming hobby hence all the expansions for perfectly fine games. CCGs & LCGs rely on this "collector" element among us gamers. It is their bread and butter because these are guaranteed repeat purchasers of your product, the best customers you could possibly hope for.
However I totally sympathised with a poster in a different thread who admitted he was an OCD completist and bemoaned the fact he could not sleep at night because he did not have promo cards to complete his collection (ok, humourous hyperbole but you get the point).
So what AW are promoting is a black market (E-Bay) to exploit an important segment of their consumer base. AW are not even profiting from it (barring a cosy Dice Tower relationship)! I could understand if AW were making money out of this but they are not, others are. They alienate their best repeat-purchasers (completists) to make others richer.
As well as alienating anpther customer segment, strategists (like jacksmack and myself), who can't join in with current promo-inclusive meta discussions in forums and feel disenchanted when we build as we have access to less cards than everyone else.
This marketing strategy of limited distribution strategy-pivotal cards is commercial madness in the long run.
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I have to agree with Deckbuilder and Jacksmacks. I find the amount of strategy posting and commentary on promo cards to be extremely irritating, especially when it comes from people like Shadow who are actually employed by AW.
Also I would like to point out that while in an ideal world you could just request to play without promos and everything would be fine. In the real world the people with the promos will use your lack of promos as an excuse to exclude you, or in some cases will refuse to play without promos without some serious pressure, potentially making the non-promo players feel like they are being unreasonable.
There is an elite aspect to this practice that cannot be denied and it's easier to disregard it if you are one of the elites.
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For what it's worth, I don't play with the promos I own, and much prefer to play tournament legal games. The power level on some of the promos is kinda high and without the buffering effect of a whole playtested set, the standout cards like gravikor, ballista, and imp familiar can really distort the game.
That new Warlord promo conjuration that lets you bring creatures into play with a guard token, for example. That card combos very efficiently with Panzergarde, and careful playtesting will be required to create a balanced tournament game once it's legal.
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For what it's worth, I don't play with the promos I own, and much prefer to play tournament legal games. The power level on some of the promos is kinda high and without the buffering effect of a whole playtested set, the standout cards like gravikor, ballista, and imp familiar can really distort the game.
That new Warlord promo conjuration that lets you bring creatures into play with a guard token, for example. That card combos very efficiently with Panzergarde, and careful playtesting will be required to create a balanced tournament game once it's legal.
I was quite sad when I saw that Warlord conjuration as a promo, because it means we wont get it for a long time in normal play (6-12 months from now if it isn't included in the Necro expansion). Likewise I had the same feeling about the dice tower promos, many great cards which wont see the light of day for who knows how long.
I realise that they want to attract people to the various conventions to build interest, which in turns brings more people into the game. Tough to find a balance.
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Promo's should only bother those who want them, otherwise released cards should be all that matters. I like playing with both, the promo's give you a future peak and are fun to play, but my truly serious spell books are Promo free.
To give you an idea of balance, when playing against Charmyna I need all the help I can get, he plays a clean Promo free deck with errata's. (He has even allowed me) with my promo heavy decks (I.E. Ballista and all of the sexy cards) I still have not been able to beat him.
I understand the some of the feelings about Promo's, but only so far. I have bought the Core, FvM, CoK and both Tomes. I have gone to my FLGS and picked up some Promo's. I travel for a living so I get the chance to go into many game stores (25 so far this year) so I do have a leg up there. I didn't do the Kickstarter but I have made donation to Dice Tower recently.
I do agree with the E-Bay piece though. It does not appear to me that it is someone (like me or another average player) with a limited supply of Promo's but someone that has access to an endless supply of the cards and they are making large bank. Quite nasty IMHO. I do wish that they would cycle the Promo's in much quicker than what it appears is going to happen. At this point only the deer has become legit....
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I have to agree with Deckbuilder and Jacksmacks. I find the amount of strategy posting and commentary on promo cards to be extremely irritating, especially when it comes from people like Shadow who are actually employed by AW.
Also I would like to point out that while in an ideal world you could just request to play without promos and everything would be fine. In the real world the people with the promos will use your lack of promos as an excuse to exclude you, or in some cases will refuse to play without promos without some serious pressure, potentially making the non-promo players feel like they are being unreasonable.
There is an elite aspect to this practice that cannot be denied and it's easier to disregard it if you are one of the elites.
Wiz I I am now and I am not an AW employee. Yes I am on several teams but I do this all for the community. One of the things with promos is most of these cards are good to print but a few need to be looked at further. The reason for not allowing them in tourney play is two fold
1 It keeps it more fair because not everybody has access to them
2 It gives the community a peek behind the curtains to see some of the ideas we are thinking abut.
If you look back several month ago I talked about it being ok to proxy cards you do not have for non competitive play. I do this all the time. I am on of the biggest completest ever. I have bought and sleeved all of Arkham Horror in a day because I could.
The reason I talk about promos is to get feedback from the community about the preview cads in-case something needed to be corrected. I want to know what players and what is being used.
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For what it's worth, I don't play with the promos I own, and much prefer to play tournament legal games. The power level on some of the promos is kinda high and without the buffering effect of a whole playtested set, the standout cards like gravikor, ballista, and imp familiar can really distort the game.
That new Warlord promo conjuration that lets you bring creatures into play with a guard token, for example. That card combos very efficiently with Panzergarde, and careful playtesting will be required to create a balanced tournament game once it's legal.
This is exactly the type info that I am looking for.
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Promo's should only bother those who want them, otherwise released cards should be all that matters. I like playing with both, the promo's give you a future peak and are fun to play, but my truly serious spell books are Promo free.
To give you an idea of balance, when playing against Charmyna I need all the help I can get, he plays a clean Promo free deck with errata's. (He has even allowed me) with my promo heavy decks (I.E. Ballista and all of the sexy cards) I still have not been able to beat him.
I understand the some of the feelings about Promo's, but only so far. I have bought the Core, FvM, CoK and both Tomes. I have gone to my FLGS and picked up some Promo's. I travel for a living so I get the chance to go into many game stores (25 so far this year) so I do have a leg up there. I didn't do the Kickstarter but I have made donation to Dice Tower recently.
I do agree with the E-Bay piece though. It does not appear to me that it is someone (like me or another average player) with a limited supply of Promo's but someone that has access to an endless supply of the cards and they are making large bank. Quite nasty IMHO. I do wish that they would cycle the Promo's in much quicker than what it appears is going to happen. At this point only the deer has become legit....
I am fine with promos unless someone plays more than one ballistae at a time - the ready marker mechanic is too devastatic otherwise. Therefore, I hope they become unique before they are released.
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Wiz I I am now and I am not an AW employee. Yes I am on several teams but I do this all for the community. One of the things with promos is most of these cards are good to print but a few need to be looked at further. The reason for not allowing them in tourney play is two fold
1 It keeps it more fair because not everybody has access to them
2 It gives the community a peek behind the curtains to see some of the ideas we are thinking abut.
If you look back several month ago I talked about it being ok to proxy cards you do not have for non competitive play. I do this all the time. I am on of the biggest completest ever. I have bought and sleeved all of Arkham Horror in a day because I could.
The reason I talk about promos is to get feedback from the community about the preview cads in-case something needed to be corrected. I want to know what players and what is being used.
I'm sorry I didn't realize you weren't an employee, although you do seem to act as an official communication channel for AW. Am I wrong on that account as well? I can understand wanting to get feedback from players of the game as sort of a beta testing function. Being able to proxy cards makes a huge difference.
I've been swayed, I think as long as communication on the purpose and etiquette of playing or not playing promos is presented to people when they receive them along with the maybe even some encouragement such as "please feel free to proxy these cards and tell other players that they can too, if more people test these cards we can get a better sense of their balance and interaction with other cards in the game.", that there is no harm in this practice and in fact it can generate more interest in the game and reduce the need for future errata.
If it is however, and AW really does encourage the proxying of promos, I think they should provide printable files on the website for people to do so; similar to the ones that were released for the recently errata'd cards. If they feel the need to they could easily put a large ghosted "PROXY" over the art on the card.
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@Wiz-Pig
Great Idea! Big ole Promo water marked on the card would work very well....
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Actually that distinction for purpose does make me feel MUCH better about promos.
I was kind of anti promo because I don't want the game turning into a trading card game like Magic where you have to find those "rares", which give people that have access to the rares or the cash an advantage over most other players.
That was one of the draws (at least for me) about Mage Wars. EVERYONE has access to the SAME card pool so no one has an advantage over another. Plus you always know what you are up against.
As long as the cards are used to beta test cards they want to put in future expansions (that EVERYONE will have access to) and isn't used to give "some" people a competitive advantage over other people that don't have access to promos then the promos are a great tool to help the game. Having thoroughly play tested cards before going to print is awesome. One of the worst things they could do is print a card and then change it or nerf it after it goes live to the public, so promo/testing would help prevent that occurance.
So I've switch my anti promo thoughts to it will help the game, since not used for comp advantage. Cool.
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Since I'm now on record comparing Imp Familiar with two very heavy hitter promos (Gravikor and Ballista), I should mention that I think its major power comes against control: it acts as an action battery casting curses face down on the Warlock's own creature, then when the opponent comes into range, those curses get Enchantment Transfusioned to the opposing mage and then revealed as appropriate. If the Warlock also includes a Nullify or a Jinx in the payload, it can be very difficult to shake all the curses, and they penetrate through an opponent's nullify because of timing rules.
The Imp isn't intrinsically more dangerous than Fellella in this regard, but may be more survivable, and is more flexible because he can also cast attack spells, allows double dipping with curse ring, and the Warlock more able to put curses in his book than the Beastmaster.
For tournament play, there is also a potential issue: the imp can cast curses, but not other enchantments. A cheater might fudge this restriction.
I'm not saying the imp is OP (Wizard's Tower is stronger(!)), and Imp is vulnerable to both teleport-murder and single turn kill from focused fire. But as we get new enchantments and new ways to use them (transfusion), they seem like they're building momentum for combo book potential, and the Imp seems like a strong combo enabler that might be difficult to put back in the tube once it's printed for real.
Also, while I'm on my soap box, conjurations with ready markers should cost 4-5 more points, or come into play with their markers used :P
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Since I'm now on record comparing Imp Familiar with two very heavy hitter promos (Gravikor and Ballista), I should mention that I think its major power comes against control: it acts as an action battery casting curses face down on the Warlock's own creature, then when the opponent comes into range, those curses get Enchantment Transfusioned to the opposing mage and then revealed as appropriate. If the Warlock also includes a Nullify or a Jinx in the payload, it can be very difficult to shake all the curses, and they penetrate through an opponent's nullify because of timing rules.
The Imp isn't intrinsically more dangerous than Fellella in this regard, but may be more survivable, and is more flexible because he can also cast attack spells, allows double dipping with curse ring, and the Warlock more able to put curses in his book than the Beastmaster.
For tournament play, there is also a potential issue: the imp can cast curses, but not other enchantments. A cheater might fudge this restriction.
I'm not saying the imp is OP (Wizard's Tower is stronger(!)), and Imp is vulnerable to both teleport-murder and single turn kill from focused fire. But as we get new enchantments and new ways to use them (transfusion), they seem like they're building momentum for combo book potential, and the Imp seems like a strong combo enabler that might be difficult to put back in the tube once it's printed for real.
Also, while I'm on my soap box, conjurations with ready markers should cost 4-5 more points, or come into play with their markers used :P
I agree that the Imp is very strong and might need some adjustment before release - especially because he is much tougher than Fellala/Huginn (i think life/armor is worth alot more than infinite defence since you can play around defences with unavoidable attacks but armor/life is always helpful).
Also a familiar that is able to cast curses in combination with transfusion is very dangerous, as you described it. And since the warlock has much better access to curses, such a warlock-familiar will be much more dangerous than Fellala! It might help if the Imp can only target non friendly units (will avoid the transfusion combo).
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On ready marker abuse:
One elegant solution is "only 1 ready marker action before and/or after each action".
This would remove HoB's errata (no reprint), the need to make Ballista unique etc.
It is burst action sequence you need to restrict and that's done by a new rule FAQ.
Shad0w gives us a good reason for promos: beta testing.
In that case please can AW print out the details of these promo cards?
It is hard to participate in beta testing if they are shrouded in mystery.
There are so many references to promo cards on forums.
It is frustrating not being able to understand discussions.
I wish I knew what the Imp Familiar being discussed does.
I still think this limited distribution is short-sighted as it feels like a CCG not LCG.
Although whoever has so much access to all promo cards on e-bay will disagree.
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Deckbuilder, the way you say it will be like a ccg to me just doesn't fit, as the promo cards are only promo exclusive for so long until they are printed in a set for everyone. I've never had trouble finding pictures or information, as board game geek has a lot of them posted on their site, and a quick search of mage wars promos on ebay pulls up pictures enough for me to make a hand written proxy if i want to play with it. The only edge people get is to test it early, and as shadow said, it is like a testing phase for those cards, so even if you get a promo, it might not be that strong when it comes out.
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Wiz I I am now and I am not an AW employee. Yes I am on several teams but I do this all for the community. One of the things with promos is most of these cards are good to print but a few need to be looked at further. The reason for not allowing them in tourney play is two fold
1 It keeps it more fair because not everybody has access to them
2 It gives the community a peek behind the curtains to see some of the ideas we are thinking abut.
If you look back several month ago I talked about it being ok to proxy cards you do not have for non competitive play. I do this all the time. I am on of the biggest completest ever. I have bought and sleeved all of Arkham Horror in a day because I could.
The reason I talk about promos is to get feedback from the community about the preview cads in-case something needed to be corrected. I want to know what players and what is being used.
I'm sorry I didn't realize you weren't an employee, although you do seem to act as an official communication channel for AW. Am I wrong on that account as well? I can understand wanting to get feedback from players of the game as sort of a beta testing function. Being able to proxy cards makes a huge difference.
I've been swayed, I think as long as communication on the purpose and etiquette of playing or not playing promos is presented to people when they receive them along with the maybe even some encouragement such as "please feel free to proxy these cards and tell other players that they can too, if more people test these cards we can get a better sense of their balance and interaction with other cards in the game.", that there is no harm in this practice and in fact it can generate more interest in the game and reduce the need for future errata.
If it is however, and AW really does encourage the proxying of promos, I think they should provide printable files on the website for people to do so; similar to the ones that were released for the recently errata'd cards. If they feel the need to they could easily put a large ghosted "PROXY" over the art on the card.
In most cases I am one of the people to talk to but I am not an AW employee. I do have many hats I wear (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAYuXphzf1g), (I am on the Rules team, Design team, Play test team) but none are that of an AW employee. It "print files for promo proxies" is on the list of things I have asked about.
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On ready marker abuse:
One elegant solution is "only 1 ready marker action before and/or after each action".
This would remove HoB's errata (no reprint), the need to make Ballista unique etc.
It is burst action sequence you need to restrict and that's done by a new rule FAQ.
Shad0w gives us a good reason for promos: beta testing.
In that case please can AW print out the details of these promo cards?
It is hard to participate in beta testing if they are shrouded in mystery.
There are so many references to promo cards on forums.
It is frustrating not being able to understand discussions.
I wish I knew what the Imp Familiar being discussed does.
I still think this limited distribution is short-sighted as it feels like a CCG not LCG.
Although whoever has so much access to all promo cards on e-bay will disagree.
I can ask Mat the art director if he can put up the files for cards through Gen promos. With the water marks of course.
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I can ask Mat the art director if he can put up the files for cards through Gen promos. With the water marks of course.
Thanks Shad0w! I really think that would go a long way towards making the practice of proxying promos seem legitimate, and the intention of promos as you described it clear.
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Shad0w gives us a good reason for promos: beta testing.
While I appreciate the effort here, Shad0w is incorrect. The PROMO cards are NOT for beta testing. The PROMO cards are finished cards meant to promote events and organized play. EACH and EVERY promo card will be released in a future set, possibly with alternative artwork. We strive to make Mage Wars as customizable as possible without making it collectible and we truly care about ALL of our customers, domestic and foreign. With this in mind, as soon as we add a previous PROMO card to a future set, I will let you know ASAP.
If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, please contact me directly at patrickconnor@arcanewonders.com.
We thank you for you continued support of Mage Wars!
Sincerely,
Patrick Connor
Communications Director, Arcane Wonders
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Shad0w gives us a good reason for promos: beta testing.
While I appreciate the effort here, Shad0w is incorrect. The PROMO cards are NOT for beta testing. The PROMO cards are finished cards meant to promote events and organized play. EACH and EVERY promo card will be released in a future set, possibly with alternative artwork. We strive to make Mage Wars as customizable as possible without making it collectible and we truly care about ALL of our customers, domestic and foreign. With this in mind, as soon as we add a previous PROMO card to a future set, I will let you know ASAP.
If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, please contact me directly at patrickconnor@arcanewonders.com.
We thank you for you continued support of Mage Wars!
Sincerely,
Patrick Connor
Communications Director, Arcane Wonders
I never said they were betas just that some are still being reviewed and I like to know what people think. I like to hear if the community has concerns about some cards.
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Shad0w gives us a good reason for promos: beta testing.
While I appreciate the effort here, Shad0w is incorrect. The PROMO cards are NOT for beta testing. The PROMO cards are finished cards meant to promote events and organized play. EACH and EVERY promo card will be released in a future set, possibly with alternative artwork. We strive to make Mage Wars as customizable as possible without making it collectible and we truly care about ALL of our customers, domestic and foreign. With this in mind, as soon as we add a previous PROMO card to a future set, I will let you know ASAP.
If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, please contact me directly at patrickconnor@arcanewonders.com.
We thank you for you continued support of Mage Wars!
Sincerely,
Patrick Connor
Communications Director, Arcane Wonders
Oh my.. this is a little frustrating. Are you saying that the Mage Wars team is not open to constructive feedback about these cards? Or that you intend to release all of them exactly as currently printed? I think we all realize that the purpose of the promo cards is to as you put it: "to promote events and organized play."
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Shad0w gives us a good reason for promos: beta testing.
While I appreciate the effort here, Shad0w is incorrect. The PROMO cards are NOT for beta testing. The PROMO cards are finished cards meant to promote events and organized play. EACH and EVERY promo card will be released in a future set, possibly with alternative artwork. We strive to make Mage Wars as customizable as possible without making it collectible and we truly care about ALL of our customers, domestic and foreign. With this in mind, as soon as we add a previous PROMO card to a future set, I will let you know ASAP.
If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, please contact me directly at patrickconnor@arcanewonders.com.
We thank you for you continued support of Mage Wars!
Sincerely,
Patrick Connor
Communications Director, Arcane Wonders
AI AI AI!
I am a bit worried now. I can see a 4x ballistae spam becoming prevalent if the card is released as is.
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Keep up the commentary. Obviously AW is listening. I imagine if HoBS or Battle Fury had been promo cards prior to release, they'd've been errata'ed before being sent to final print once their shortcomings became known.
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Keep up the commentary. Obviously AW is listening. I imagine if HoBS or Battle Fury had been promo cards prior to release, they'd've been errata'ed before being sent to final print once their shortcomings became known.
Quite. My previous comment is a cross post from me from another thread. I am worried that the free action cards may cause problems in the game.
I wonder if the play testers can shed light on how the 4 ballistae build hasn't become prevalent?
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We just recently had a tournament over here (with a kit) and we reached a conclusion similar to the OP's - the way promos are done for this game is the one remaining issue we have with it. Our reasoning was somewhat different than the OP's, however - in fact, it was the opposite :P The thing is, you CAN'T use promos in Organized Play and, the consensus among players at our tourney was, if you use them outside, you are playing on an uneven battlefield. The end result? Nobody uses their promos - we just sort of HAVE our prizes and we look at them in our binders because we like to be respectful of everybody playing this wonderful game and give them the courtesy of playing on a level playing field. I would much much rather have the initial promos (minor heal, disenchant, etc) with alternate artwork - that way all your promos are legal and you can show off your achievements as opposed to collect them in a binder until they are released (which, if CoK is any indication, will actually never happen - 1 out of what? 16 promos gets released with this set. At this rate of official sets and promo releases, the promos far outstrip the capacity of the sets to incorporate them). My $0.02 but yeah, I am peeved about the promo system as well :p