Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: Arlemus on June 11, 2014, 07:29:53 PM
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Most of you have talked about this issue before, so I won't beat a dead horse and try to keep this short. My suggested errata to teleport is simple, restrict it to only friendly creatures.
I've seen people house rule this in real life and on OCTGN. It seems to work very well and contributes to the overall health of the game in a positive way. It promotes more interaction between creatures and looses the grip arcane has on the core of every book.
Some others have suggested it be "epic", but I don't think the problem is that teleport can be used more than once, it's that it can be used on an unwilling mage.
Anyway, I know most have a relevant opinion so I'd like to here them and see if we can come to some kind of formal conclusion on the issue ;)
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So that Grizzly Bear that is teleported into my mages zone by the opposing mage, I can no longer teleport him out?
How about no offensive use of Teleport? That's what gets everyone's goat, right?
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I just play where it can't target enemy Mages. Simple change and it makes quite a difference. Changing it to where you can't target any enemy creatures is too much IMO.
I don't think we'll get an actual errata of the card. Just cards that help balance it out, ie an equipment (amulet?) that prevents you from being teleported or an enchantment that lets you teleport to its zone instead of the target zone the enemy chose.
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I just play where it can't target enemy Mages. Simple change and it makes quite a difference. Changing it to where you can't target any enemy creatures is too much IMO.
I don't think we'll get an actual errata of the card. Just cards that help balance it out, ie an equipment (amulet?) that prevents you from being teleported or an enchantment that lets you teleport to its zone instead of the target zone the enemy chose.
The real important question is whether that will be enough to balance it for 2v2.
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Hello iron golem
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I just play where it can't target enemy Mages. Simple change and it makes quite a difference. Changing it to where you can't target any enemy creatures is too much IMO.
I don't think we'll get an actual errata of the card. Just cards that help balance it out, ie an equipment (amulet?) that prevents you from being teleported or an enchantment that lets you teleport to its zone instead of the target zone the enemy chose.
Yeah, I guess not being able to target enemy mages is all that's really needed; I'd settle for that. I'm not ready to settle on no errata yet though :P.
An equipment could definitely make a lot of sense too. It would be a lot like playing a eagleclaw boots against a jetstream wizard tower I imagine. It could be a war belt. The thing is, I don't want to spend spellbook points to directly counter what I think is possibly an imbalanced part of a card...
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You know...I think attack spells are too powerful. They should have errata to make the mages have a tea party instead.
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You know...I think attack spells are too powerful. They should have errata to make the mages have a tea party instead.
And the best part is you can go make your own thread about it.
This is a real issue guys, back on topic.
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Guess you missed the satire in that post. Believe it or not there is a group a players out there that totally disagree with the premise that [mwcard=MW1I28]Teleport[/mwcard] needs to be changed about much as Attacks spells.
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Guess you missed the satire in that post. Believe it or not there is a group a players out there that totally disagree with the premise that [mwcard=MW1I28]Teleport[/mwcard] needs to be changed about much as Attacks spells.
There's a difference between missing and not appreciating. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course, I just don't care for baseless sarcasm in my threads. I mean, at least follow it up with some on topic thoughts.
I don't even think teleport is overpowered (though it could be close), I just think it has a negative function on the game as a whole. It promotes degenerate play, IMO, and the game would be more fun with a "non enemy mage" restriction. With FiF, there's more ways to handle being teleported, but I don't think it should have the vice grip on spell books it has. Maybe it won't once FiF hits, but as others have agreed, people just don't like the offensive use of it.
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Nothing wrong with that. I am more in the Gravikor of Teleport camp or a Teleport Beacon Enchantment camp. My thoughts are that by decreasing the reliability of the Teleport spell you can bend its efficacy without an errata. If your whole game plan evolves around Teleport and I can bend it my way, that sounds like fun.
My favorite right now is to drop Gravikor in NC and then Push the Lord of Fire into a corner and throw up a pair of wall of earths around him. I can imagine the same scenario with Teleport.
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You're worried about promoting degenerate play in a game where the goal is to kill the opposing mage? I'm sorry. I just don't get that. I understand putting errata on a card if there's a major issue with the balance it cause. Teleport is so far from causing issues with balance though, I can't believe this is a thought. If you're so worried about teleports being a factor on your mage, add more nullifys or add your own teleports. I just think people want changes based on their own experiences whether or not they make sense to the game as a whole.
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You're worried about promoting degenerate play in a game where the goal is to kill the opposing mage? I'm sorry. I just don't get that. I understand putting errata on a card if there's a major issue with the balance it cause. Teleport is so far from causing issues with balance though, I can't believe this is a thought. If you're so worried about teleports being a factor on your mage, add more nullifys or add your own teleports. I just think people want changes based on their own experiences whether or not they make sense to the game as a whole.
By that logic they should never do any errata. I don't mean degenerate in the sense of being a jerk to the other mage. Go ahead, kill them in the best way possible; but I think teleport opens up situations where the best play is itself degenerate, especially against new/mid level players, and has an overall negative impact on the game that doesn't need to be there.
The whole reason changes are made is because "people want changes based on their own experiences" and many people have those same experiences and opinions.
I'm not personally worried, I usually only ever run 1 nullify. I'm worried, as are others, that a certain aspect of teleport (ie teleporting enemy mages) has a negative impact on the actual play of the game and it doesn't need to be that way.
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Can you come up with some situations where its bad for the game play?
I think its important to have 1 teleport in most books, but that's about it.
If you let your creatures stay in your corner then you are bound to be separated from them.
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Every time, when you build up a Zone of death, teleport is bad for the gameplay.
Let it be a necromancer with alot of zombies, let it be a Druid with vinesnappers and thornlashers, let it be a priestress with a bunch of knights. If your mage is teleported into this hellhole, there is often no escape possible (jinx, another teleport, tanglevine etc.). Your mage just dies there. And btw you cannot save your mage with a nullify, if your opponent uses his qc and action at the same time (seeking dispel, teleport).
I personally agree that there should be something that prevents this situation or makes it happen not that often. Especially in 2on2 games, teleport as it is now is the spell, that takes some fun out of the game.
"You shall not teleport enemy mages" could be the answer. Something else could be "if you teleport the enemy mage, pay double mana cost"
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Im with Lord on this topic. An errata isn't necessary for this card. Whenever we play, we just play with the house rule that you can't teleport the enemy mage. Sure, it basically removes any sort of Zone of Death strategy, but there are other strategy's beside that. We both still have fun and teleport is still very useful. Even though teleport can't target the enemy mage, force push spells are still something that you need to be wary of.
I think, however, there should at least be a spell (equipment, conjuration, enchantment) that could counter it in some way i.e. the amulet Lord mentioned.
I also like Schwenkgotts idea about double mana possibly.
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Every time, when you build up a Zone of death, teleport is bad for the gameplay.
Let it be a necromancer with alot of zombies, let it be a Druid with vinesnappers and thornlashers, let it be a priestress with a bunch of knights. If your mage is teleported into this hellhole, there is often no escape possible (jinx, another teleport, tanglevine etc.). Your mage just dies there. And btw you cannot save your mage with a nullify, if your opponent uses his qc and action at the same time (seeking dispel, teleport).
I personally agree that there should be something that prevents this situation or makes it happen not that often. Especially in 2on2 games, teleport as it is now is the spell, that takes some fun out of the game.
"You shall not teleport enemy mages" could be the answer. Something else could be "if you teleport the enemy mage, pay double mana cost"
If someone builds up a zone of death, and you leave yourself in position to be teleported into it then you have no one to blame but yourself. The opposing mage still has to be within two zones of you to make it work, and if you didn't have the foresight to see it coming then that is poor planning on your part whether they do a seeking dispel/teleport combo as you mentioned or not.
In my opinion the card is fine as it is, and doesn't require house rules or errata.
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I have seen the Telepit example brought up in every discussion about whether Teleport is bad for the game or not...are there any other examples? I am not saying that it is/isn't a valid complaint, it would just be interesting if it was the only situation in which Teleport was perceived as broken.
Where's DeckBuilder when you need him...
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Where's DeckBuilder when you need him...
He's gone and I don't think he's coming back... He left with a final post written full of things I won't repeat. Needless to say it was taken down quite quickly. I happened to be on when it was posted but he basically said he was leaving and not coming back, among many more negative things that obviously aren't allowed. & he hasn't been on since. It's too bad he left on such a bad note.
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I think that Telepit is just the extreme example of the general issue.
It is very difficult atm to effectively take a defensive stance in the game.
Basically, there are 2 major defensive themes:
1. Armor : which is very efficiently countered by Acid Ball
2. Guards and staying in a zone : There are other ways to play around guards but the problem with teleport is that it catapults you deeply into enemy territory. Other aggressions like incapacitating guards or Force Pushing, etc allow the mage to either walk back into the "safe" zone with his next action or reactivate the guard(ed) status somehow. Teleport doesn't allow that.
The effect/impact of a teleport is simply far more manipulative than other effects/mechanics in Mage Wars.
Telepit is just the extreme example of 1xTeleport into GameOver but you can have 4 Teleports in a book and usually 2 successful ones are enough to decide a game - even in a non-pit book.
I have seen the Telepit example brought up in every discussion about whether Teleport is bad for the game or not...are there any other examples? I am not saying that it is/isn't a valid complaint, it would just be interesting if it was the only situation in which Teleport was perceived as broken.
Where's DeckBuilder when you need him...
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He's gone and I don't think he's coming back...
Ah that sucks, I missed that post. I always enjoyed reading his stuff.
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Me too. Why did he leave?
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Me too. Why did he leave?
Something about balance issues. It was either Teleport being overpowered or the Wizard being overpowered. Don't remember which.
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Am I the only one who wishes teleport didn't exist? I hate teleport. Whenever I use teleport or another player uses teleport it always feels cheap. I especially hate the whole "you-can-teleport-out-of-conjuration-traps" BS. In my opinion teleport should be nerfed or at least made more expensive (both mana-wise and spellpoint-wise). I was about to suggest that teleport should be restricted to arcane mages only but I think a lot of people would be afraid that this would make the wizard even more dominant than he already his.
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We are aware of peoples concerns and have been watching the meta closely.