Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: MrSaucy on July 14, 2014, 06:23:39 PM
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I don't want to rush to judgements or anything but the new Warlock hasn't impressed me... yet. Hopefully there are some people out there who have figured her out because I have only managed to win 1 game with her so far. Here are some questions for anyone who has had success with her.
1) How do you typically open? Do you harmonize Pentagram?
2) Are Bloodfire Helmet and Adr. Torment equipment pieces you bring out in the beginning or pieces you wait to bring out until they are useful? I have been using Adr. Torment. Is this too much of a drag on your mana supply?
3) Do you use Sersiryx? If so, do you bring him out in the opening or wait to deploy him from Pentagram? I personally don't like him but I might be playing him wrong. If you use him, is he there to mostly cast curses or to cast fire attacks?
4) Do you swarm with Wildfire and Firebrand Imps (this is what I have been trying) or do you go for the "few big ones" strategy? Is it a waste of points to include Dark Pact Slayer or Blood Demon if you plan on swarming?
5) Do your enchantments focus on fire, curses, or both?
6) Is Combustion as lame as I think it is? For all the benefits you get from Burn conditions I don't see why you would want to remove them.
7) How heavily do you use Fire attack spells?
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Definitely not an expert on her but I tried her the other day so I'll talk about my impressions. I ended up losing against a Priestess but it was only b/c she healed herself. Didn't have any Poisoned Blood in my spellbook at the time so I had practically no way to stop her from healing herself.
1) I did indeed Harmonize the Pentagram. Wanted to be able to deploy Wildfire Imps every turn.
2) I didn't use the helmet the first game but I should have. I would have waited to use the Helmet for a turn when I was going to attack with the Imps. I would probably skip the first QC phase and then QC the helmet right before I attacked with an Imp.
3) I ended up Deploying him like halfway through the match. Maybe I should have gotten him out sooner but like I said I was getting out Imps every turn.
4) As stated, I've tried swarming. Haven't tried a few big with her yet.
5) I've got lots of different enchantments but the best one I've found to use with her is Marked for Death. It obviously gives you an extra attack die when attacking their Mage (assuming that's who you put it on), but then her ability gives the other Mage Flame +1 when they have a curse on them. So that 6 dice Fireball just turned into 8 dice. Add in a Fireshaper Ring and that becomes 9.
6) Haven't even bothered trying to use it.
7) Pretty heavily. They work really well with her.
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1-i'd say the 2 bests opening would be battleforge + self harmonize/crystal, or pantagram harmonized. burning stuff is expensive.
2-the torment seems super nice, it has just way too much synergy. i find it so strong that i would maim wing myself just so i could burn myself to give it to the other mage. Helmet is purely a swarm thing so it depends on the opponent. Torment helps for both swarm and solo. Just think of the action advantage!
3- Sesyrix is a frail utility. so you need some backup for him to be worth it. alone he's susceptible to die. The spell cast would depent on opponent and state of the game, and maybe he'll just melee too depending on the situation (marked for death gives him +2 dice! 3 if with helm and a burn)
4-Honestly, having blood demon seems weird in a swarm yet its a demon tough to kill, so he's worth it by himself, same for dark pact slayer. If you build swarm and have nothing more, you might end up being defeated by simple strategy. having tough creatures to deal with guards make your imps stay alive longer. They complement each other in their own way. More different tools is always good if its not too expensive.
5-I personally think that you need everything with her. fire is better with curses, curses alone would mean just playing necro is better, kind off... if you play warlock you need fire, so if you have fire you need curses. Thing is the points for each depend on your own strategy and ideas.
6-Combustion is a situational finisher. with a curse, marked for death, and 3 burns, you roll 8 dices for 5. yet you could do the same for 5 mana with flamestrike. so it needs more to finish something. but just imagine the big hit with 4-5 burns on a mage, its insanely big!..... so its super situational. no more then one of it should be in any fire book.
7-The new warlock has just wayy too much synergy with fire, and fire is good vs everything except flame immune stuff. Yet, flame immune can still have a burn on them for melee buffs to demon, burnproof can still have their faces melted by fire, fire destroy plants AND zombies (and ooze). Sure, there are some tools against it, but nothing that can't be dealt with, except maybe iron golem and monolith. These two are the only things hard to deal with by fire, but they are hard to deal with on their own anyway. Golen with a rust can still recieve tons of fire dices from a flamestrike. Monolith cant have any curse on it, but can still burn so its not hopeless. These 2 are the worst yet they can still be dealth with. except if the opponent has 4 golem. then you are screwed, just kill the mage then. have a ton of healing and defensive stuff (vampirism, death link, regen) and the worst vs fire is not that bad! BURN EVERYTHING!!!! BUUUUUUUURRRNNNN!!!!!
Please keep in mind that its all theories for me, gonna buy the game tomorrow (was sold out last week... snif :'( )
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Thanks for the feedback guys.
So far I have been opening:
1) Pentagram + Harmonize (no reveal)
2) Fireshaper Ring + Lash of Hellfire
3) reveal Harmonize, Dragonscale Hauberk, cast either Nullify OR Circle of Fire on mage
I think I'm going to give up on Sersiryx. I can think of many other ways I'd rather spend 12 mana, and he is just too fragile.
Blood Demons don't mesh well with Adramelech Warlock, but I used them with the old Warlock and they make amazing blood reapers!
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Flame immune cannot recieve burn condition. Its imunne to all conditions and dmg from flame type attacks.
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they can receive it from what i understand (not directly from fire attacks, but indirectly like with torment or ignite), but not receive any damage from the burn
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they can receive it from what i understand (not directly from fire attacks, but indirectly like with torment or ignite), but not receive any damage from the burn
Go read Immunity in codex. Theycan't be targeted by spell or effect of the type. So Ignite and Torment are fire spells, they can't target fire immune targets.
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To save everybody the trouble, from the Codex for Immunity:
"This object is immune to all attacks, damage, conditions, and effects of the specified damage type, including critical damage and direct damage. It cannot be targeted or affected by spells or attacks of the specified type."
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darn it, i thought i found something clever to still buff swarms.
Burnproof
(Object Trait)
Cannot have the Burn condition. May be vulnerable to flame damage, but cannot “burn”. All Incorporeal objects are Burnproof.
i thought that flame immune made it so that you can't target with fire stuff, but i thought the transfer from fireweaving or the creation of the burn from torment could still work, even if it doesn't affect the creature in any way. Still unsure since it doesn't specify that you can't HAVE the condition on (same as burnproof), it just say that you are not affected. (also, torment is a dark spell, not fire: http://www.arcanewonders.com/arcane-wonders/forged-in-fire-preview-adramelechs-torment ). You can still, for exemple, attack a flame immune creature with a melee fire attack, but the wording say that it does a big zero damage. Having a condition on wont matter either, but the warlock and the burn synergy changes that for the first time.
That explains my dilemma on the matter, that is still not quite answered yet because of the wording.
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Well, wording is pretty exact at this. Its not Fire attack but Flame attack. Flame attacks can cause a burn condition, same way as wind attacks can cause a push effect, acid attack corrode effect etc.
Flame Immunity >> Burn Proof. You can still hurt creature with fire attack but it will not get Burn token no matter what.
This is my point of view :) so i could be also wrong at some point :)
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Conditions often have subtypes:
Burns are a Flame condition, just like Weak is a Poison condition and Sleep is a Psychic condition.
So just like Poison Immunity protects a creature from Rots, Flame Immunity protects you from Burn conditions. Basically Flame Immunity has Burnproof built in.
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being protected means ever if you have it on you it doesn't hurt you, but it doesn't prevent the condition from being put the way burnproof specifically say. Maybe i should try asking in the rules section for an answer from the arcane wonder team.
I got to agree with boocheck that technicly flame immunity is supposed to be stronger then burnproof, but in another way, something can burn yet be unnaffected by the flame, and some other can't burn but be afftected by fire. Iron doesn't burn but it can melt. Something fueled by fire wont be affected by it, but if it is fueled by fire, then it is kinda burning, like a fire elemental.
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Immune is Immune.
'Drain Soul' is an incantation from the Dark school with subtype Vampiric.
Are you telling me you can put Tainted markers on the necromancer with this card?
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Well...no, but because from the wording of immunity, you can't target the necro with the spell, so you gain 6 life for 16 mana, yet tainted doesn't work, but you could have an emerald tegu put a rot marker on the necro yet not have the rot marker do anything. I'm asking the question about conditions and immunities in the rule section:
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14386.0
Spells require a target so ignite can't put burn on a flame immune because its a fire spell and has to target the mage, but fireweaving and adramelech's torment are not fire subtype. The torment is dark. Now all i have to figure out is the extent of the "can't be affected" clause of immunity. Can it still have the condition yet the condition doesn't do anything on the immune target.
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If you are immune to something you cannot have that condition on you. So If you are flame immune, you cannot have burn tokens on you. It doesn't matter how they were moved their.
Burnproof has an odd wording, that is different than this.
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Creatures immune to the conditions subtype do not receive the condition at all.. The Emerald Tegu rolls his effect die, but it his Rot token cannot be placed on the Necromancer.
Immunity prevents them from being a legal recipient.
Immunity, codes pg 41: This object is immune to all attacks, damages, CONDITIONS and EFFECTS of the specifed damage type.
Burns are a Flame effect and Flame condition (as defined in their codex entry), a creature who is Flame Immune, or Burnproof cannot actually recieve the Burn Marker.
A Marker is never put on a creature then sit idle doing nothing.. it simply doesnt get placed. Much like if that same Emerald Tegu was attacking a poison immune Mana Crystal..it wouldnt stack up Rots on said Mana Crystal.
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Well...no, but because from the wording of immunity, you can't target the necro with the spell, so you gain 6 life for 16 mana, yet tainted doesn't work,
Double false.
I can target the necro.
The effect will be nothing. No tainted markers placed because he is immune to poisen thus no healing done.
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my bad, i've written it wrongly here, wont the warlock in question still get the 6 life anyway?
Also, has anyone tried the adramelech warlock with few bigs creatures and a focus on fire damage to kill the mage? I'm uncertain of the efficiency of the wildfire imps because of their frailty so i'm wondering about the other strategies.
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Actually the Supplement clarifies that Drain Soul only lets you gain life, if you placed the tainted markers.
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Actually the Supplement clarifies that Drain Soul only lets you gain life, if you placed the tainted markers.
That's why it's called DRAIN life, and not Tainted Reward or something like that. Then again, that makes me wonder why the mana drain effect is called mana DRAIN, If the mana is being eliminated rather than drained...
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I am still trying to make a build with her that I like but I do not use the Pentagram for the 18 mana it costs to deploy it and a harmonize I feel that I can put that mana to better use.
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I am still trying to make a build with her that I like but I do not use the Pentagram for the 18 mana it costs to deploy it and a harmonize I feel that I can put that mana to better use.
No question an effective Adramelech Warlock book can be built without Pentagram + Harmonize. But the relevant question is:
Is there a non Pentagram + Harmonize book (i.e. non-swarm) which the Adramelech Warlock will run stronger than the classic Warlock? Since the AW's strongest ability (Smoldering Curses) scales with the number of creatures she has in play, I suspect not.
Similarly, I do not believe it is possible to build an AW Blaster style book which is stronger than a similar book run by a Fire Wizard.
Swarm is pretty much the AW's only substantial advantage, so if you are interested in optimizing go with swarm or pick a different mage.
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I am still trying to make a build with her that I like but I do not use the Pentagram for the 18 mana it costs to deploy it and a harmonize I feel that I can put that mana to better use.
No question an effective Adramelech Warlock book can be built without Pentagram + Harmonize. But the relevant question is:
Is there a non Pentagram + Harmonize book (i.e. non-swarm) which the Adramelech Warlock will run stronger than the classic Warlock? Since the AW's strongest ability (Smoldering Curses) scales with the number of creatures she has in play, I suspect not.
Similarly, I do not believe it is possible to build an AW Blaster style book which is stronger than a similar book run by a Fire Wizard.
Swarm is pretty much the AW's only substantial advantage, so if you are interested in optimizing go with swarm or pick a different mage.
Just because her smoldering flames ability is more useful the more creatures she has doesn't mean that swarm is her only competitive option. I suspect she'd also do well with a few big strategy.