Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sailor Vulcan on April 29, 2018, 11:43:15 AM
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Hi. Are there any strategies that are viable against a good druid player besides tanking or killing her creatures? And do any such strategies exist which only use two creatures?
I have been having a lot of trouble getting more aggressive decks to work against druid.
Perhaps coincidentally I've also noticed that the OCTGN meta usually tends to use longer game strategies, it seems like nearly every competitive deck I encounter on there uses wands, and nearly everything either uses a spawnpoint or has at least 3-4 creatures.
I'm getting really bored of this and I want more variety, but every time I try to make a deck that doesn't use at least 3-4 creatures or doesn't use a spawnpoint, it fails miserably.
Help or advice would be appreciated.
Thanks!
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Well Druid is tuff to kill. Killing her fast might be easier than trying to go for a longer game vs her.
I think Grimbart did a pretty good job with the Ehren, Mhgeeden and Grimson.
An old school FM with some durable creatures like Necropian Vampire and Grizzly might still work.
You could you any mage with a strategy like that i guess.
Equipment Warlord wouldnt be a bad choice, even if thats what your trying to avoid.
BF 3-4 creatures, wands and Balista.
BF is pretty good and easy to use.
With the Druid id expect Vine Tree 4 Thornlashers, 4+ other plant creatures and ~ 4 other creatures including a Grizzly or two. Its hard to kill all that.
Both Warlocks should be ok if they have curses and or attack spells and a few durable creatures.
Druids often go unarmored or really low on armor early because they heal so well.
So a few curses and attack spells or WoT or a few good creatures and then 6 poison blood and Deathlock might just do it.
Still im a Druid player and id likely rather be the Druid than the opponent.
But i like long games and don´t get bored easily :)
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Hi. Are there any strategies that are viable against a good druid player besides tanking or killing her creatures? And do any such strategies exist which only use two creatures?
I have been having a lot of trouble getting more aggressive decks to work against druid.
Perhaps coincidentally I've also noticed that the OCTGN meta usually tends to use longer game strategies, it seems like nearly every competitive deck I encounter on there uses wands, and nearly everything either uses a spawnpoint or has at least 3-4 creatures.
I'm getting really bored of this and I want more variety, but every time I try to make a deck that doesn't use at least 3-4 creatures or doesn't use a spawnpoint, it fails miserably.
Help or advice would be appreciated.
Thanks!
I'd watch players like Sharkbait to learn how they operate without using a creature spawnpoint. Especially since playing such books yourself doesn't seem to worked out how you would have liked.
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SIX poisoned bloods and a deathlock? I don't think I've ever seen any competitive warlocks who used that many.
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SIX poisoned bloods and a deathlock? I don't think I've ever seen any competitive warlocks who used that many.
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It should be enough :)
Steal life?
Your talking about a mage with only 2 creatures and no spawnpoint.
Spending 8 spellbook points on 6PB + Deathlock should be possible.
I would only do it if i "knew" my opponent was going to play Druid or a holy mage.
2PB most likely wont be enough.
But i would still use BF with a curse Warlock.
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There's a lot of affordable FIRE these days... Unstable Fire Imp + Lesser Teleport is ~3SBP(4 if holy) and wrecks Sim-City Druid hard OR forces them into a reposition-game they might not be good at.
If you're playing Wizard, you can pop your Unstable Fire Imp with ease using your ranged poke after the Imp has made a melee attack. Followed up with more FIRE.
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There's a lot of affordable FIRE these days... Unstable Fire Imp + Lesser Teleport is ~3SBP(4 if holy) and wrecks Sim-City Druid hard OR forces them into a reposition-game they might not be good at.
If you're playing Wizard, you can pop your Unstable Fire Imp with ease using your ranged poke after the Imp has made a melee attack. Followed up with more FIRE.
I'm not sure how it wrecks druids. Could you elaborate? Lesser teleport seems an odd choice as a tactic here.
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There sadly isnt enough umph In an unstable fire imp, even if you do port it in. I too am a bit curious as to what you mean by that. Also, fire doesn't work as well as you might think, especially not small fire spells that roll small dice. The regen and high life totals om most plants make that a tough exchange.
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Like everything in Mage Wars, my single tactic of a FastBombImp is but one piece of the puzzle. Meant to quickly and near-automatically put a BURN token on every plant in the zone. I play Druid a lot locally and learned quickly not to put all my plants in one basket, yet on OCTGN I hear of druids with 4 plants in the same zone.
1. Imp gets budget BURNS started.
2. Firestream is more budget BURNS.
3. IMP + Double Firestream is still cheaper than 4 plants/flowers.
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I'm not sure how it wrecks druids. Could you elaborate? Lesser teleport seems an odd choice as a tactic here.
It doesn't wreck all Druids, but it wrecks careless, "Sim City" Druids. That wanna play solitaire with their over-watering.
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Plants and lesser teleport works fine :)
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Sorry I am still having problems. Maybe i should try it out. Are druids killing your imps and you get a 3+ burn chance on a ton of plants. I just dont see why it's worth the 2 sbps out of school or even 1.
It just seems like a ring of fire would be double the points of the imp but you get 7 dice and a decent burn chance on top of it, while the imp is just a burn
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I'm missing what you mean by sim city druids. I'm not trying to be mean honestly I'm just missing the metaphor. Burn tokens at best mitigate most plants built in regen. I'm having a tough time seeing what kind of creatures they are stacking in zone that AREN'T manning that zone extremely dangerous.
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"Sim City" druid/mage == multiple trees/spawnpoints, many seed-pods/mana batteries, building an engine in a vacuum.
Point being, if you use Lesser Teleport (2) to cram explosive imps at a super-turtle and you follow-up with cheap Firestreams, you make it a really bad day for a Druid who just wants 3 seed-pods and Samara Tree in D2.
I'm not saying you're guaranteed a Win, Im just saying cheap Fire and cheap Teleport(lesser) IS the answer to Turtle druid. Deny them a comfort zone. Throw Imps in from Range 3 (sprint plus Lesser Teleport). Force a Druid to start summoning Tegu and you're taking precious mana away from the Vine Tree's projection.
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by "cheap fire" I mean spellbookpoints (Combustoid(Imp) and Firestream). Fire that can go in every deck, including Nature's premium on Fire.
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Id like to see that in an Arcane Duels Video soon :)
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Unfortunately you can't have more than one seedling pod attached to any single zone. If someone in your meta is doing that the easiest way to crack that turtle is to inform him that it's not a legal move ;)
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Unfortunately you can't have more than one seedling pod attached to any single zone. If someone in your meta is doing that the easiest way to crack that turtle is to inform him that it's not a legal move ;)
Thanks for this, our local meta is far from Turtle, so it never came up. Our local meta is one of Sprint/LesserTeleport/Turn2TurtleBusterInFarCenter.
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Id like to see that in an Arcane Duels Video soon :)
Ive seen a lot of Druid matchups on Arcane Duels and I'm shocked at how little FIRE they have to navigate. I run a Necro that is summoning Gorgon Archer in B2 on T2 and then lighting fires while you deal with a Gorgon. If you can force a Druid not to Vinetree-Cast (for lack of mana), you are doing something right.
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I mean this in the most absolute awesome of ways, so please don't be offended, but id really like to play agaist you with a druid sometime. Are you on octgn? I'm super interested in the way you guys play.
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@Romeoxero Was that a reply to me or to Werner?
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Werner. You know full well what druids can do sailor. Lol!
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I mean this in the most absolute awesome of ways, so please don't be offended, but id really like to play agaist you with a druid sometime. Are you on octgn? I'm super interested in the way you guys play.
I find upside in all things said, I have no time to take offense. My brother, Alex, just got OCTGN running (plays that aggressive Sniper/Ballista Warlord) and I've been meaning to come over and watch a few games on OCTGN. Me personally, I don't like playing Tabletop onScreen/online--Not even Catan.
Quit Mage Wars for a long time (salty over some of the decisions AW made; Bim Shala nerf should have been Holy Only, IMO... no limits (Holy needs it, IMO)). Got back in when we picked up a bulk collection for a 500% discount. Updated Bim Shala rant: Tsunami should have been and needs to be Siren Only. I digress.
Best thing about coming back? Lesser Teleport. Turn 1 Sprint and Lesser Teleport for (2) going into Turn 2 in FarCenter with 28 mana? You had better not cast that second spawnpoint/tree.
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Wow I haven't heard somebody talk about the Bim-Shalla nerf for a long time. Personally I always thought it was a good decision to keep it as a customizable card rather then holy only. That being said it was such a huge card for the meta at the time that it felt like a similar reaction was when they did the Wizard Nerf.
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Personally, HoBS being non unique was insanely broken. In 3 rounds a naked mage could swing 9 dice, for free, then cast a temple of light and repeatedly cast FREE 6 dice attacks with light damage and a daze stun chance evry single turn. Busted. Straight up busted. Attacks like that weren't balanced. The nerf, though really hard on the holy meta at the time, isnt that much of an impact anymore since the 2 expansions its recieved.
Maybe yhats just me tho.
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as one of the two people who inspired the nerf ruling at origins 2013, I would like to say I think the ruling was both required, and sufficient. I think it struck a great balance to the card. elegant. good ruling on battle fury for the same reason, as well as the temple of light. very few things (now not as much ) were allowed to have an effect and not cost some mana. so the temple ruling was great imo. holy absolutely does not need help. it is very competitive.
I also think same with the wizard training ruling. elegant. needed badly. makes all schools feel much more unique as a result. very much opened up the design space for new mages without having to always work around how the wizard would always be better at some elemental school than the new mage being designed. the tower ruling however may have been just a little too much. it definitely needed to be changed. but they tried to avoid a complete rewrite of the card I would guess. I think that it may have been better to serve as a stationary wand. no changing of the spell or perhaps require a quick spell action and mana to swap the spell for a new one. still nice, but not broken. in that case would be more like the nature conjurations that can be used when they are cast. now no one really uses them any more. as a stationary familiar its usefulness has been cut too far. but hey all of the other updates were super strong, so one a little too far off can easily be forgiven rather than leave the tower as it was in its uber power.
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I think the one issue with the Temple of Light ruling is that Ballista and Akiro's Hammer don't require mana, just can only be used every other round. Ballista is 5 every other round with piercing 3 and doesn't need any buffs. Temple could be 1 die every round for free or youd have to buff it with multiple zone exclusives to get more dice. I think paying mana in addition to that was a bit much if Ballista/Hammer are free actions.
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Personally, HoBS being non unique was insanely broken. In 3 rounds a naked mage could swing 9 dice, for free...
A 3-Melee Mage cloaked in +6 Melee (HoBS) has paid 30 mana and 6 actions. Nothing in Mage Wars is free. Heck, I'd take 3 Lightning Bolts in 2-turns over 6 HoBS in 3-. It will more greatly effect the other mage's spellbook selection/AP. Not to mention 2 lightning bolts on Turn 2 (sprint / force push opener) greatly reduces the odds of more HoBS.
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I was fine with Temple of Light nerf. And Battle Fury nerf. But I feel Rushdown (SprintForcePush / SprintOGTeleport) already balanced HoBS spam perfectly. If you lost to a Mage who casted 6 HoBS, you did a lot wrong that game; starting with allowing all that cheese to happen.
I feel Holy Only was the proper nerf as HoBS really finds Added Value in 4-melee-Mage books.
IF/WHEN Tsunami is nerfed, please consider Siren Only (it's too much Added Value for Druids).
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I was fine with Temple of Light nerf. And Battle Fury nerf. But I feel Rushdown (SprintForcePush / SprintOGTeleport) already balanced HoBS spam perfectly. If you lost to a Mage who casted 6 HoBS, you did a lot wrong that game; starting with allowing all that cheese to happen.
I feel Holy Only was the proper nerf as HoBS really finds Added Value in 4-melee-Mage books.
IF/WHEN Tsunami is nerfed, please consider Siren Only (it's too much Added Value for Druids).
Is Druid the only mage you are concerned about running Tsunami?
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I was fine with Temple of Light nerf. And Battle Fury nerf. But I feel Rushdown (SprintForcePush / SprintOGTeleport) already balanced HoBS spam perfectly. If you lost to a Mage who casted 6 HoBS, you did a lot wrong that game; starting with allowing all that cheese to happen.
I feel Holy Only was the proper nerf as HoBS really finds Added Value in 4-melee-Mage books.
IF/WHEN Tsunami is nerfed, please consider Siren Only (it's too much Added Value for Druids).
Is Druid the only mage you are concerned about running Tsunami?
No. But in making a case for "Siren Only," I want to highlight the [added value] of Druids running Tsunami. It's more than just Synergy.
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You really hold a lot of respect for the flash port attack spell rush don't ya? Does nobody play brace yourself agaist you? Wot pushes? Reverse attack, block, or dodge? I really wonder whats happening when you sit down to play this game. Are all of your games over by round 4? Who are you playing this Rushmaster style agaist, and why haven't they discovered surging wave? Or literally any of the myriad of answers to that kind of aggression?
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You really hold a lot of respect for the flash port attack spell rush don't ya? Does nobody play brace yourself agaist you? Wot pushes? Reverse attack, block, or dodge? I really wonder whats happening when you sit down to play this game. Are all of your games over by round 4? Who are you playing this Rushmaster style agaist, and why haven't they discovered surging wave? Or literally any of the myriad of answers to that kind of aggression?
I think you have "my style" in reverse. I play rushdown because of the massive respect I have for the Long-game ROI during Engine/Spawnpoint/SimCity style play. If left unchecked, you either get ramped with tremendous dice/action advantage or you force a juicy 3-4 hour game.
And I do switch playstyles in the blink of an eye. But the biggest misconception is that I haven't experienced proper Rush-Counterplay. I've lost a lot of Mage Wars games regardless of my opening; due to incredible counter-play.
The purpose of Rush isn't to win outright, it's to deny the opponent a comfort-zone.
Seeking Dispel their Brace Yourself and we're back to making the opponent very uncomfortable.
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I think the one issue with the Temple of Light ruling is that Ballista and Akiro's Hammer don't require mana, just can only be used every other round. Ballista is 5 every other round with piercing 3 and doesn't need any buffs. Temple could be 1 die every round for free or youd have to buff it with multiple zone exclusives to get more dice. I think paying mana in addition to that was a bit much if Ballista/Hammer are free actions.
Side note: I have thought for a long time that the Ballista and the Hammer should not get an automatic load token, but instead require a Soldier to spend an action to place a load token on it. Up to two soldiers per round. In the same way that the Temple of A can employ Clerics prayers. It wouldbe nicely thematic, too: kill the crew, nullify the artillery.
/side note
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I think the one issue with the Temple of Light ruling is that Ballista and Akiro's Hammer don't require mana, just can only be used every other round. Ballista is 5 every other round with piercing 3 and doesn't need any buffs. Temple could be 1 die every round for free or youd have to buff it with multiple zone exclusives to get more dice. I think paying mana in addition to that was a bit much if Ballista/Hammer are free actions.
Side note: I have thought for a long time that the Ballista and the Hammer should not get an automatic load token, but instead require a Soldier to spend an action to place a load token on it. Up to two soldiers per round. In the same way that the Temple of A can employ Clerics prayers. It wouldbe nicely thematic, too: kill the crew, nullify the artillery.
/side note
I don't think ballista needs a nerf since if it only gets one shot off and is killed with mana equal to or less to it's cost, you get a net win as the opponent if you play the situation correctly.
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One of the good things about rushes is that it teaches you how to get the most out of your defensive cards. I have experienced that when a lot of players figure out how to deal with the turn two rock/boulder/hawkeye/akiros favor combo johktari they can generally deal with most other aggression as well. I think that's why a lot of veteran players go for a mid game timing push as their earliest point of aggression rather then anything before turn 4.
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One of the good things about rushes is that it teaches you how to get the most out of your defensive cards. I have experienced that when a lot of players figure out how to deal with the turn two rock/boulder/hawkeye/akiros favor combo johktari they can generally deal with most other aggression as well. I think that's why a lot of veteran players go for a mid game timing push as their earliest point of aggression rather then anything before turn 4.
Good point(s). I will often fake the Rush, but you gotta establish the dangers of one first.