Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spellbook Design and Construction => Topic started by: MrSaucy on November 30, 2013, 03:57:17 AM
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Necromancer – Zombie Swarm 8)
Conjurations:
2 Wall of Bones
2 Poison Gas Cloud
1 Ziggurat of Undeath
Putting Poison Gas Cloud in your mage’s zone is really sweet; the Necromancer is immune to poison, as are his nonliving zombies. I kinda think of Poison Gas Cloud as the Necromancer’s “damage barrier” in a sense because it makes living creatures think twice before entering the Necromancer’s zone to attack him. Ziggurat of Undeath works well against creature heavy mages as well as mages that bring out a couple powerful creatures. I don’t always use Ziggurat, but when I do I usually cast it before a round in which my zombies are going to kill an enemy, living creature.
Equipment:
1 Death Ring
1 Libro Mortuos
1 Deathshround Staff
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Cloak of Shadows
1 Demonhide Armor
I always bring out Death Ring and Libro Mortuos on Turn 1. Death Ring is nice because it diminishes mana costs not just for your Necromancer but for your Libro Mortuos. I bring out Deathshroud Staff on Turn 2. Based on what the opponent does I will put on Demonhide Armor if I feel like I need it. The same can be said for Elemental Cloak/Cloak of Shadows.
Enchantments:
1 Harmonize
1 Death Link
3 Ghoul Rot
2 Poisoned Blood
2 Agony
2 Maim Wings
2 Marked for Death
Harmonize is for Libro Mortuos. I always cast Harmonize on Libro Mortuos on Turn 2. The combination of Death Ring, Libro Mortuous, and Harmonize is very powerful. If your opponent starts out too slow you can quickly overrun them. The rest of the enchantments are fairly straightforward. Marked for Death works great since you should be attacking the enemy mage with a horde of zombies.
Incantations:
2 Seeking Dispel
4 Dispel
4 Dissolve
2 Teleport
1 Heal
4 Zombie Frenzy
1 Battle Fury
Seeking Dispel, Dispel, Dissolve, Teleport, and Heal are incantations I include in every spellbook. To me they seem that necessary. In addition I have 1 Battle Fury and 4 Zombie Frenzy. Zombie Frenzy… my god… such an amazingly powerful card!
Creatures:
6 Zombie Crawler
4 Zombie Minion
4 Unstable Zombie
2 Zombie Brute
1 Shaggoth-Zora
These are, in my opinion, the best zombie creatures to use. The only advice I can give is only use Shaggoth-Zora to obliterate Zombie Crawlers/Zombie Minions AND only obliterate a creature that is close to dying.
Final note: I do not have the Conquest of Kumanjaro. Not yet anyways. Asking for it for Christmas :)
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I definitely like the poison gas cloud "barrier". PGC is one of my favorite cards.
Question: do you cast the Zig in the corner or move your mage to a middle square to minimize their slowness?
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Question: do you cast the Zig in the corner or move your mage to a middle square to minimize their slowness?
It really depends on the placement of my Necromancer and which mage I am playing. I guess I usually move my Necromancer to the middle zone on my side of the board. I may stay two zones away from the other mage to take advantage of Cloak of Shadows. The downside about staying 2 zones away is that the Deathshroud Staff only has a range of 1 zone, so you have to plan accordingly. However, you could always do what I do, which is only move within 1 zone after you have spent all of your Zombie Frenzy OR if you feel like you are starting to overwhelm the opponent and they will be too busy dealing with your zombies to threaten your mage.
I think that where you place Zig isn't as important as when you place Zig. On my first game I put out Zig very early. I realized this was a mistake; my opponent took note and didn't summon any weak/medium creatures. On my second game as Necromancer I cast Zig the turn I thought my zombies were going to kill a creature (that wasn't epic or legendary). This didn't give my opponent much warning.
I played a game as the Druid against somebody using this Necromancer spellbook. The game went on forever (4 hours!) I must say that Poison Gas Cloud (PGC) was really a "thorn" in my side (pun intended!) I couldn't place any zines in zones that had PGC unless I could somehow use the vines during the same turn I deployed them. I almost came back late in the game, but the deal was sealed when my opponent cast Poisoned Blood on me and I had ran out of all 4 of my Dispel.
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Note to self: Include Rise Again in the spellbook!
Note to self: Include Plague Zombie for Plague Zombie+Shaggoth-Zora combo!
(Shaggoth obliterates a Plague Zombie, triggering a rot explosion!)
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I played a game as the Druid against somebody using this Necromancer spellbook. The game went on forever (4 hours!) I must say that Poison Gas Cloud (PGC) was really a "thorn" in my side (pun intended!) I couldn't place any zines in zones that had PGC unless I could somehow use the vines during the same turn I deployed them.
One important thing to note is that Poison Gas Cloud only affects living creatures, whereas vines are conjurations. Likewise, Idol of Pestilence and Altar of Skulls have no effect on conjurations. This was actually a big deal in the last game I played as Druid against the Necromancer - after the game, my opponent noted that he had few solutions to my conjuration-heavy strategy. And it's true - many of the Necromancer's strongest poison spells are completely ineffective against a conjuration-swarm druid like the one I played (a buildtype that I think is only viable with the druid). Interestingly, Akiro's Hammer should be very effective against this strategy (though I haven't tested this in practice). Some love for the warlord, perhaps?
Anyway, I don't want to derail the topic from the stated focus on the necromancer too much - just note that his poisons are less effective against the druid than one might at first think.
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Note to self: Include Plague Zombie for Plague Zombie+Shaggoth-Zora combo!
(Shaggoth obliterates a Plague Zombie, triggering a rot explosion!)
From the Codex for Obliterate:
When you obliterate an object, it is utterly destroyed, leaving no
trace. The object is destroyed, then it is removed from the game.
It does not become discarded or get returned to a spellbook. Any
ability or effect printed on that object, or attached to it (such as a
marker or enchantment), which triggers on destruction, is canceled.
No Shaggoth and Plague Zombie combo there, sorry. If Shaggoth obliterates the Plague Zombie, his ability won't trigger. :( Also, does any one else get that feeling whenever they spot a rule discrepancy that there's probably five more that they themselves are overlooking? Now I'm going to feel paranoid all night about legal targets for poison conditions...
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I personally love using Sacrificial Altar in my Necromancer book. I use the Sacrificial Altar sacrificing Plague Zombie which triggers the rot condition which could be synergized with other things (Eternal Servant, Ravenous Ghoul, Graveyard). It also beefs up another creature with melee +2 and piercing +2...yeah that hurts when a Brute is out and everything is damaged to make Bloodthirsty work (8 attack die).
Just another advantageous way of using Plague Zombie. I only use Crawlers, PZ, Brutes, Shaggoths and Ghouls for my creatures. I am trying to find see if Zombie Minion can fit. Still tinkering the book.
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I have definitely made changes to Necromancer spellbook, as expected. Spellbooks are always evolving. I am starting to think having Rise Again and Animate Dead is more effective than Ziggurat. In fact I am thinking of taking Ziggurat out. There are a couple reasons why.
First of all, Ziggurat mandates that you kill a creature with your zombies. My zombies do most of the killing, but there are ttimes where it is best to use the Melee attack with Deathshroud staff to finish off a creature.
Second of all, Rise Again can be more unexpected. When Ziggurat is out, your opponent knows exactly what you want to do. He will be more careful with his creatures. But you can surprise your opponent with Rise Again, especially if you manage to cast it on a creature JUST before killing it.
Third of all, you can cast Animate Dead at any time after the target, living creature dies. Perhaps you want to wait until more mana is available before raising an enemy's dead creature. Maybe you want to bring back a creature later for tactical reasons.
No Shaggoth and Plague Zombie combo there, sorry. If Shaggoth obliterates the Plague Zombie, his ability won't trigger. :( Also, does any one else get that feeling whenever they spot a rule discrepancy that there's probably five more that they themselves are overlooking? Now I'm going to feel paranoid all night about legal targets for poison conditions...
Thanks for clarifying this. Nobody got around to actually pulling of the combo, so no rules were broken.
And yes, there are definitely times where the rules can be complicated. There is a lot to learn. For example, I just learned that if a creature is on guard and they are the target of multiple melee attacks from different creatures then they get to use counterstrike against each attacker. But if a creature is on guard and you attack something ELSE in their zone with a melee attack, they only get the counterstrike once. Strange stuff like that pops up here and there.
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I noticed the same thing with the Ziggurat in a game with the pre-built spellbooks over the weekend. It might be better if you're running only zombies, but if you're using other creatures, it just doesn't trigger as often as you'd think it would.
I like Animate Dead the best out of the reanimation spells. It doesn't have to be set up beforehand, which is a huge plus for it.
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I like Animate Dead the best out of the reanimation spells. It doesn't have to be set up beforehand, which is a huge plus for it.
The cool thing is when you play Animate Dead to bring back a creature the opponent forgot was killed. When you play against the Necromancer you suddenly have to keep track of all your destroyed creatures. It takes getting used to for sure.
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. For example, I just learned that if a creature is on guard and they are the target of multiple melee attacks from different creatures then they get to use counterstrike against each attacker. But if a creature is on guard and you attack something ELSE in their zone with a melee attack, they only get the counterstrike once.
You have unfortunately mislearned something. If a creature on guard is the target of an attack, they lose the guard marker after that attack is completed. That means they lose the counterstrike ability. Any further attacks against them do not get counterstriked.
If a guard is the target of a melee attack, you must remove the guard marker when the attack is complete, at the end of the Counterstrike Step, even if the attack is unsuccessful. Once the attack is resolved, the creature is no longer guarding and loses both the Counterstrike trait granted by guarding and the ability to protect its zone.
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. For example, I just learned that if a creature is on guard and they are the target of multiple melee attacks from different creatures then they get to use counterstrike against each attacker. But if a creature is on guard and you attack something ELSE in their zone with a melee attack, they only get the counterstrike once.
You have unfortunately mislearned something. If a creature on guard is the target of an attack, they lose the guard marker after that attack is completed. That means they lose the counterstrike ability. Any further attacks against them do not get counterstriked.
If a guard is the target of a melee attack, you must remove the guard marker when the attack is complete, at the end of the Counterstrike Step, even if the attack is unsuccessful. Once the attack is resolved, the creature is no longer guarding and loses both the Counterstrike trait granted by guarding and the ability to protect its zone.
I stand corrected. I read something different in the book that was on a different page. Don't have the book with me unfortunately.
For some reason I feel like Mage Wars does a bad job of giving consistent rule descriptions.
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If you do find a discrepancy in the rulebook some place, please let us know. I am maintaining a thread on these forums regarding issues that are not clear in the rules or FAQ.
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Here is a tentative new Zombie Swarm spellbook. I am going off of memory, but I am sure the spellbook is over by 20 or 30 points. Any input is welcomed.
Conjurations:
2 Mana Crystal
2 Poison Gas Cloud
2 Wall of Bones
1 Ziggurat of Undeath
1 Deathlock
Equipment:
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Leather Boots
1 Leather Gloves
1 Demonhide Armor
1 Regrowth Belt
1 Death Ring
1 Libro Mortuos
1 Deathshroud Staff
Enchantments:
1 Nullify
1 Harmonize
1 Enfeeble
2 Maim Wings
2 Poisoned Blood
2 Agony
2 Ghoul Rot
2 Marked for Death
1 Death Link
??? Rise Again (0-4?)
Creatures:
6 Zombie Walker
4 Zombie Minion
1 Shaggoth-Zora
4 Unstable Zombie
2 Zombie Brute
Incantations:
2 Seeking Dispel
4 Dispel
4 Dissolve
2 Teleport
1 Force Push
??? Animate Dead (1-4?)
??? Zombie Frenzy (1-4?)
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How has Venomous Zombies worked? At first I thought they automatically got a spot but seeing how Plague Zombie's 8+ effect die doesn't happen often I'm wondering if 7+ makes any difference? I do like how the tainted aspect works so that they receive 3+ damage but just curious.
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How has Venomous Zombies worked? At first I thought they automatically got a spot but seeing how Plague Zombie's 8+ effect die doesn't happen often I'm wondering if 7+ makes any difference? I do like how the tainted aspect works so that they receive 3+ damage but just curious.
I tried them once. I had a Venomous Zombie last probably 5-6 turns. He attacked each turn and not ONCE did he give tainted. Haha. I know I got screwed by luck, but I like Zombie Minions a lot more. They are more consistent. Plague Zombie is more useful than Venomous Zombie in my opinion, but I am always tight on points so I include Unstable Zombie instead.
I might be wrong about this, but I think you can use Sacrificial Altar to essentially "detonate" a Plague Zombie in a busy zone, giving a chance of a ton of rot.
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Yes, Sacrificial Alter triggers the Plague Zombie explosion.
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Yes, Sacrificial Alter triggers the Plague Zombie explosion.
Well... looks like I am going to have to fit 1 or 2 Plague Zombies into my spellbook after all.
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Here is a tentative new Zombie Swarm spellbook. I am going off of memory, but I am sure the spellbook is over by 20 or 30 points. Any input is welcomed.
Conjurations:
2 Mana Crystal
2 Poison Gas Cloud
2 Wall of Bones
1 Ziggurat of Undeath
1 Deathlock
Equipment:
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Leather Boots
1 Leather Gloves
1 Demonhide Armor
1 Regrowth Belt
1 Death Ring
1 Libro Mortuos
1 Deathshroud Staff
Enchantments:
1 Nullify
1 Harmonize
1 Enfeeble
2 Maim Wings
2 Poisoned Blood
2 Agony
2 Ghoul Rot
2 Marked for Death
1 Death Link
??? Rise Again (0-4?)
Creatures:
6 Zombie Walker
4 Zombie Minion
1 Shaggoth-Zora
4 Unstable Zombie
2 Zombie Brute
Incantations:
2 Seeking Dispel
4 Dispel
4 Dissolve
2 Teleport
1 Force Push
??? Animate Dead (1-4?)
??? Zombie Frenzy (1-4?)
I used a slightly modified version of this spellbook earlier today against a Druid and it absolutely wrecked her.
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I used a slightly modified version of this spellbook earlier today against a Druid and it absolutely wrecked her.
I don't know if it is just the circle of people I play with, but Druid has yet to beat Necromancer... in 5 different games! It is possible we all just suck at playing Druid. It is also possible that Druid vs. Necromancer isn't a very fair matchup to begin with.
I have made changes to the spellbook:
Conjurations: Taking Poison Gas Cloud out to free up points. I never seem to use Wall of Bones so I am taking that out too. Sacrifical Altar should be included.
Equipment: I want to try playing Necromancer without spawnpoints so I can be aggressive earlier on. That means bye-bye to Libro and Harmonize.
Enchantments: Minimum of 2 Rise Again feels mandatory to me.
Creatures: Plan on squeezing in 1 or 2 Plague Zombies. Good against swarms and combo nicely with Sacrifical Altar.
Incantations: Cut out 1 dispel, 1 dissolve, and 1 teleport to free up points for more Zombie Frenzy and Animate Dead.
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I've got the altar and plague zombies in there.
But I feel like libro and harmonize is a must have for any Necromancer book.
I can't imagine him working without it but if I am wrong, let me know!
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I've got the altar and plague zombies in there.
But I feel like libro and harmonize is a must have for any Necromancer book.
I can't imagine him working without it but if I am wrong, let me know!
All it takes is a mere dissolve to completely obliterate the Libro/Harmonize strategy. The Necromancer can pop out zombies quite easily with Death Ring and his channeling of 10 mana anyways.
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I understand that, but it gives him more actions than that opposing mage which I feel is essential to his strategy.
It really helps aid his swarming. 2 creatures per turn > 1 creature per turn. Even if it does get dissolved, he can simply pay the 3 life to put it back in his spellbook.
Although, you said you were trying to get aggressive earlier on, which is a different story. I understand your reasoning then. When I've played the Necromancer I kinda stay back and send swarms of creatures after the other mage, which I think is the predominating strategy for him currently.
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Even if it does get dissolved, he can simply pay the 3 life to put it back in his spellbook.
Actually, it costs you 3 Life, 14 Mana, and 2 Actions. 3 Life to get the card back in your spellbook, 10 mana for Libro Mortuos, 4 Mana for Harmonize, 1 action to cast Libro Mortuos, and 1 action to cast Harmonize. Not to mention it causes you to miss a Deployment.
Meanwhile your opponent has spent 10 mana and 1 action to Dissolve.
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Even if it does get dissolved, he can simply pay the 3 life to put it back in his spellbook.
Actually, it costs you 3 Life, 14 Mana, and 2 Actions. 3 Life to get the card back in your spellbook, 10 mana for Libro Mortuos, 4 Mana for Harmonize, 1 action to cast Libro Mortuos, and 1 action to cast Harmonize. Not to mention it causes you to miss a Deployment.
Meanwhile your opponent has spent 10 mana and 1 action to Dissolve.
That's why I would never Harmonize Libro Mortuos.
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Even if it does get dissolved, he can simply pay the 3 life to put it back in his spellbook.
Actually, it costs you 3 Life, 14 Mana, and 2 Actions. 3 Life to get the card back in your spellbook, 10 mana for Libro Mortuos, 4 Mana for Harmonize, 1 action to cast Libro Mortuos, and 1 action to cast Harmonize. Not to mention it causes you to miss a Deployment.
Meanwhile your opponent has spent 10 mana and 1 action to Dissolve.
AND you lose its unspent mana.. so if you were saving it up you're out that much more.
You could run Armor Ward to make it 14 mana for a Dissolve.. but like the Warlock you have to pay that triple Holy cost, so its pretty pricy.
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I feel like this is as good as its gonna get:
Conjurations: 5
1 Sacrificial Altar (1)
1 Ziggurat of Undeath (2)
1 Deathlock (2)
Equipment: 11
1 Death Ring (1)
1 Deathshroud Staff (2)
1 Elemental Cloak (2)
1 Cloak of Shadows (2)
1 Demonhide Armor (2)
1 Regrowth Belt (2)
Enchantments: 35
2 Nullify (4)
2 Block (4)
2 Agony (2)
1 Enfeeble (2)
2 Maim Wings (2)
2 Poisoned Blood (2)
2 Ghoul Rot (4)
2 Marked for Death (2)
1 Death Link (2)
2 Rise Again (6)
1 Vampirism (2)
1 Hellfire Trap (1)
1 Decoy (2)
Incantations: 36
2 Seeking Dispel (4)
3 Dispel (6)
3 Dissolve (6)
1 Force Push (2)
1 Teleport (4)
4 Zombie Frenzy ( 8 )
2 Animate Dead (6)
Creatures: 33
6 Zombie Crawlers (6)
4 Zombie Minion ( 8 )
4 Unstable Zombie ( 8 )
1 Plague Zombie (2)
1 Shaggoth-Zora (3)
2 Zombie Brute (6)
[note: I realize Vampirism can only target living creatures… Vampirism is intended to be cast on my mage (if needed be)]
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Once I have cemented a Zombie spellbook I am happy with, I plan on making a Necromancer spellbook that makes the most of his poison immunity. In other words, a spellbook that revolves around rot, weak, cripple, and tainted conditions as well as direct poison damage. I won't have any time this week to start the spellbook, but I may as well get the ball rolling with some ideas for core spells:
Conjurations:
Poison Gas Cloud
Idol of Pestilence (possibly a bad choice with many living creatures, idk)
Creatures:
Stonegaze Basilisk
Gorgon Archer
Darkfenne Bat
Malacoda
Venomous Zombie
Plague Zombie
Emerald Tegu
Iron Golem (simply because he is non-living... and awesome)
Enchantments:
4 Rise Again (you will have living creatures this time)
Incantations:
4 Drain Soul
2-4 Animate Dead
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My Necro build is a Zombie tribal (minus Ravenous Ghoul but he's got the same theme so I'm okay with that) with the Poison build (everyone's infected like The Walking Dead). I use Idol of Pestilence which doesn't hurt ANY of my nonliving zombies and automatically puts bloodthirsty on guys (which can backfire at times). I do use Poison Gas Cloud offensively and defensively. I make use of my Plague Zombies as mini tanks on guard and Sacrificial Altar which provides a nice little boost for my Brutes or Shaggoth. You may even be able to employ that now if you want since it's not too many points (Clouds hurt though for 8).
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My Necro build is a Zombie tribal
An imminently sensible build of how the Zombies seem to have been designed to be played.
Obvious interactions (I suspect not all of them work) include...
Crawlers + Shaggoth + maybe Ziggurat vs. swarm + Ghoul cleaner
Sacrificial Altar + Eternal Plague Servant + Graveyard (too slow?)
Idol + Gas Cloud + Cheetah Malacoda + Animate + Deathlock
Frenzy (full) or Force Wave + lots of Zombies (Brutes to hinder!)
Just one very minor quibble...
I make use of my Plague Zombies as mini tanks on guard
Pest Guards can be ignored.
Also this build is at a disadvantage vs. nonliving (Golems, Oozes, Skeleton reconstruction/pop-up archers).
I also don't fancy it against Elite flyers, mana denial and all the usual Necromancer silver bullets.
For more consistency, you may think about shoring up the weaknesses at the expense of its purist theme.
For example 1 Gas Cloud for 4 is sufficient, ideally on a Lair or Gate, Malacoda/Knight guards Idol/Deathlock.
You use the word "tribal" revealing your Magic background (Lorwyn block and predecessor Onslaught block).
With those Magic blocks, building decks was like "building by numbers" as the synergies were just spelt out.
Mage Wars with its pick mechanic is far more sophisticated; having the right tool for the right occasion is far more valuable.
This is an interesting digression on the Focus vs. Versatility axis in the game which is rarely discussed.
Playing multiple copies of the same synergetic spells gives you Focus but at the expense of Versatility.
Where you pitch your camp is really a matter of personal style.
But if you want a book that's consistently good against all opposition, you need to have some Versatility.
Otherwise you're playing "match-up lottery", beaten by some nemesis builds and walking over others.
In case this sounds negative, I really like the religious adherence to theme and synergies in your build.
I am sure it can overwhelm many builds.
Just be aware such sweeping victories is a sign of "win more" and it's better to have a higher win rate.
Yes, it means compromising the purist idea to fit solutions to lessen bad match-ups; culling always hurts.
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Hmm. I'm thinking now my spellbook is flawed in that it doesn't take advantage of the Necromancer's poison immunity OR the fact that all of my creatures are non-living. Idol of Pestilence is a good addition that would take advantage of both of those things. And I was probably too hasty to remove Poison Gas Cloud.
Unfortunately, I am slammed with final exams all this week, so I won't be able to contribute anything to this forum. But I think I will try out various Necromancer spellbooks this weekend and post which one felt the strongest.
This is an interesting digression on the Focus vs. Versatility axis in the game which is rarely discussed.
Playing multiple copies of the same synergetic spells gives you Focus but at the expense of Versatility.
Where you pitch your camp is really a matter of personal style.
But if you want a book that's consistently good against all opposition, you need to have some Versatility.
Otherwise you're playing "match-up lottery", beaten by some nemesis builds and walking over others.
It may be rarely discussed but it is certainly something you always to have to think about. On one hand, you don't want to be a slave to your theme (a rule MtG players will be familiar with). On the other hand, if you lose focus of your theme you aren't building the best spellbook possible. I think part of the versatility comes with the standard spells that most spellbooks include: nullify, block, bear strength, hawkeye, seeking dispel, dispel, dissolve, teleport, force push, heal, etc.
One of the Necromancer's weaknesses is his defense and life-gain options. I almost included 1 Heal in my spellbook, but it took up too many points. Unfortunately, I hate Drain Life, so I was only left with Regrowth Belt, Deathlink, and 1 Vampirism for my mage. (Drain Soul might help in this area, but I haven't played with it yet so I don't want to jump to conclusions.)
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An imminently sensible build of how the Zombies seem to have been designed to be played.
Obvious interactions (I suspect not all of them work) include...
Crawlers + Shaggoth + maybe Ziggurat vs. swarm + Ghoul cleaner - Did this and liked the way it turned out. Ghoul + Shaggoth was a nasty combo. Add in Brutes and Plagues, it was fun.
Sacrificial Altar + Eternal Plague Servant + Graveyard (too slow?) - It does take some setup to get this. I believe the key is going to be having things take up the actions as you build.
Idol + Gas Cloud + Cheetah Malacoda + Animate + Deathlock - Have yet to do this but definitely thought about how to incorporate it...hard to have everything. I do use a Malacoda-less poison strategy
Frenzy (full) or Force Wave + lots of Zombies (Brutes to hinder!) - That would be nice but haven't gotten to that point yet where I thought "hmm, wave is nice here" but perhaps it's just how my games turned out
See my observations here. Maybe other Necro players would like to chime in?
Just one very minor quibble...
I make use of my Plague Zombies as mini tanks on guard
Pest Guards can be ignored.
Also this build is at a disadvantage vs. nonliving (Golems, Oozes, Skeleton reconstruction/pop-up archers).
I also don't fancy it against Elite flyers, mana denial and all the usual Necromancer silver bullets.
For more consistency, you may think about shoring up the weaknesses at the expense of its purist theme.
For example 1 Gas Cloud for 4 is sufficient, ideally on a Lair or Gate, Malacoda/Knight guards Idol/Deathlock.
You use the word "tribal" revealing your Magic background (Lorwyn block and predecessor Onslaught block).
With those Magic blocks, building decks was like "building by numbers" as the synergies were just spelt out.
Mage Wars with its pick mechanic is far more sophisticated; having the right tool for the right occasion is far more valuable.
This is an interesting digression on the Focus vs. Versatility axis in the game which is rarely discussed.
Playing multiple copies of the same synergetic spells gives you Focus but at the expense of Versatility.
Where you pitch your camp is really a matter of personal style.
But if you want a book that's consistently good against all opposition, you need to have some Versatility.
Otherwise you're playing "match-up lottery", beaten by some nemesis builds and walking over others.
In case this sounds negative, I really like the religious adherence to theme and synergies in your build.
I am sure it can overwhelm many builds.
Just be aware such sweeping victories is a sign of "win more" and it's better to have a higher win rate.
Yes, it means compromising the purist idea to fit solutions to lessen bad match-ups; culling always hurts.
First, I must have tipped my hand as a former MtG player. Heh. As for your point, I completely get you and it's the tough thing about this game which is something I love! The complexity of what we need to look for has to be done on all levels. Versatility wise, you're right. You have to maintain the balance and I've been trying to figure out what that is. Maybe instead of 4 brutes and 4 plague zombies I cut that down leaving more options open for the silver bullets you mentioned. I think because my meta is between casual and semi-competitive (so semi-semi-competitive?), I think I can manage until I get hit in the face. :P
Nice clarification on Pest vs. Guard. Definitely needs to retweak my options here. See, you hit me in the face! ;)
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Here is the spellbook I have pretty much finalized.
>>>Equipment:
1 Death Ring
1 Deathshroud Staff
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Cloak of Shadows
1 Demonhide Armor
1 Regrowth Belt
Notes: Death Ring is a mandatory turn 1 spell. Deathshroud Staff can be brought out turn 1 or later but I always bring it out turn 1. You never know if things won't be going your way and your Necromancer will have to do some attacking of his own. Choose Elemental Cloak if you are playing against any Air or Fire mage AND you don't think you will be able to keep your distance. I actually found Cloak of Shadows more useful against a Wizard because he was trying to keep me away from him the whole game. Regrowth Belt is put in so the Necromancer can have some sort of lifegain via equipment.
I like Necromancer much better without Libro Mortuos, so Libro will be out of all of my Necromancer spellbooks.
>>>Conjurations:
1 Sacrificial Altar
1 Idol of Pestilence
2 Poison Gas Cloud
>>>Enchantments:
1 Death Link
2 Nullify
2 Block
2 Enfeeble
2 Maim Wings
2 Poisoned Blood
2 Agony
2 Ghoul Rot
1 Hellfire Trap
1 Bear Strength
1 Vampirism
Notes: Death Link and Vampirism are there for lifegain options. Bear Strength can be great if you slip it underneath your Necromancer and reveal it immediately before attacking with Deathshroud Staff. The rest of the enchantments are pretty standard.
>>>Incantations:
2 Drain Life
4 Dispel
3 Dissolve
1 Teleport
1 Force Push
4 Zombie Frenzy
4 Animate Dead
Notes: Drain Life is there for lifegain. You may want to swap out Drain Life for Drain Soul. I haven't played with Drain Soul so I don't want to jump to any conclusions. Regardless, I have found that Drain Life can be a sneaky way to end matches when your opponent is ~5 points away from dying. I greatly prefer Animate Dead over Rise Again and Ziggurat of Undeath, hence the 4 copies.
>>>Creatures:
4 Venomous Zombie
4 Unstable Zombie
2 Plague Zombie
1 Zombie Brute
I have taken a recent liking to Venomous Zombie. I have played two games with all Venomous Zombies and no Zombie Minions and the Venomous Zombies were pretty effective. Tainted can be stellar, especially if put on an inactive creature, and 3 direct damage can be pretty helpful against creatures with thick armor. I actually make a Venomous Zombie an eternal servant. The reason I do this is because you only need to leave 7 mana (6 mana if you have Death Ring equipped) to reanimate a dead Venomous Zombie that is your eternal servant.
I originally planned on 2 Zombie Brutes, but I took out 1 Zombie Brute in order to add another Dispel so I think it was worth it.
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No zora?
You must at least play 1.
Zora is great, even without growth markers (standard 4 dice + 1 additional for bloodthirsty and you can guard with it (no pest), ...
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@Saucy
I am playing a moded version of your (latest rev) book tomorrow. My first go around as a Dark Mage and my first play of the DvN expansion.
I will post it up tomorrow after I play it.
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I actually make a Venomous Zombie an eternal servant. The reason I do this is because you only need to leave 7 mana (6 mana if you have Death Ring equipped) to reanimate a dead Venomous Zombie that is your eternal servant.
Death Ring doesn't reduce the cost of using the Eternal Servant ability.
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I actually make a Venomous Zombie an eternal servant. The reason I do this is because you only need to leave 7 mana (6 mana if you have Death Ring equipped) to reanimate a dead Venomous Zombie that is your eternal servant.
Death Ring doesn't reduce the cost of using the Eternal Servant ability.
It actually does. Eternal Servant is Reanimating and Reanimating is Summoning and Summoning is Casting a creature spell and the ring reduce mana cost when you Cast.
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I actually make a Venomous Zombie an eternal servant. The reason I do this is because you only need to leave 7 mana (6 mana if you have Death Ring equipped) to reanimate a dead Venomous Zombie that is your eternal servant.
Death Ring doesn't reduce the cost of using the Eternal Servant ability.
It actually does. Eternal Servant is Reanimating and Reanimating is Summoning and Summoning is Casting a creature spell and the ring reduce mana cost when you Cast.
I will try to clarify the interaction....
My eternal Servant dies and I choose to pay it's casting cost of 9 to trigger the reanimate effect. This is not casting or revealing a spell, just activating an ability. At the end of the round it is summoned into the zone.
The mana cost reduction requires me to cast a creature, which I am not, and yes while the ability does summon a creature, It is not cast when I pay the mana. Which is when the ring checks to see if a reduction can be applied.
That make sense?
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Summoning is Casting a creature spell
This part is incorrect. Summoning is not inherently casting a creature spell, though the concepts are very similar.
from the codex:
Summon
When a creature comes into play and is placed in the arena it is Summoned. Usually this occurs when a creature spell has been cast and successfully resolves.
For the ring to work, you (or a spawn point) have to cast the spell. Summoning is simply the mechanic of bringing something into play, wether it is from casting a spell or some other source (such as Reanimation or Ichthellid Larve).
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Guess I'm a little late to this thread. But in case you haven't found out by now: Tainted counts as three damage that cannot be healed (can still be removed by paying cost). In a way I guess you could consider it lowering the Life of the enemy mage. I've played the necro a few times now and I haven't lossed with it yet. I'm not saying it can't be beat guys, just saying it hasn't happened so far.
IMO venemous zombie is one of the best out there for the necro. If you can put a tainted marker on it then your pretty much doing 2 dice of damage base plus and additional three damage right there. Then once it has the tainted marker on you can utilize your necro's plague master ability to start throwing direct poison damage on the enemy mage every turn.
As far as your first build goes, your absolutely right, I've ran some numbers and the ring straight into mortuoso is the most mana efficient combo. However, I'd scrap wall of bones and put a meatier (pun!) wall in. I actually went for broke and used wall of steel. It takes forever to knock down, so if you know you're about to get rushed by a warlock or forcemaster than throw that wall down turn 2! They kind of just look at you confusedly and it gives you more rounds to summon the bulk of your army.
I went away from shaggoth and used the ravenous ghoul. It's fast and annoying and one time a wizard threw down a mord's obelisk and i watched the necro just sac one crawler a turn to it and made the ghoul stronger. Pretty specific circumstance but it was nice.
I'd hold off on Deathshroud staff for awhile. You want to take advantage of your mana as long as you can before the enemy comes marching toward you like a foolish zealot.
Another interesting thing of note is that the necro can use Sectarus (I think). I know it sounds crazy but those curses could really come in handy when you're not casting zombie frenzy.
Also in a bind you can use force wave to push all your zombies one square forward if you need the reach.
Just some thoughts. I haven't really got to talk about the Necromancer that much so feel free to get back to me.
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Oh how my Necromancer deck will feel more complete with this fine addition...
http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1794795/mage-wars-plagued-promo-card
I change spellbooks all the time so I don't think I'll post my most current Necro spellbook. But I will say the only Conjuration I now use is Idol of Pestilence (not always an auto-play but still helpful) and I realize 4 Animate Dead and 4 Zombie Frenzy is complete overkill. I stick to 1-2 Rise Again, 1-2 Animate Dead, and 1 Zombie Frenzy.
I've added many "generally useful" spells to my Necro spellbook as well: battle fury, piercing strike, evade, divine might (holy I know... but it sucks to have no Ethereal attacks against Incorporeal creatures!!!), mana prism, mind shield, and tanglevine.
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After playing Necromancer pretty much non-stop the last week I have solidified my favorite necromancer spellbook.
2 Invisible Fist
1 Graveyard
2 Wall of Bones
6 Zombie Crawler
4 Zombie Minion
4 Venomous Zombie
1 Shaggoth-Zora
4 Unstable Zombie
4 Plague Zombie
2 Zombie Brute
2 Agony
3 Maim Wings
2 Marked for Death
2 Poisoned Blood
2 Ghoul Rot
1 Death Link
1 Harmonize
1 Nullify
1 Cloak of Shadows
1 Demonhide Armor
1 Leather Gloves
1 Death Ring
1 Libro Mortuos
1 Colossus Belt
1 Regrowth Belt
1 Leather Boots
2 Animate Dead
2 Zombie Frenzy
2 Seeking Dispel
4 Dispel
2 Force Push
2 Dissolve
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Interesting. I've found Venomous Zombies ridiculously good against Living creatures, so I've been focusing on them. I'm also playing with Libro Mortuos instead of Graveyard.
And...Why do you have a Veteran's Belt when you only have one card that give you Armor?
I like to run fire attacks and/or Force Hammer so that I can kill annoying targets like Suppression Orb. How do you deal with conjurations that hurt creature swarms? Just power up Shaggoth?
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Interesting. I've found Venomous Zombies ridiculously good against Living creatures, so I've been focusing on them. I'm also playing with Libro Mortuos instead of Graveyard.
And...Why do you have a Veteran's Belt when you only have one card that give you Armor?
I like to run fire attacks and/or Force Hammer so that I can kill annoying targets like Suppression Orb. How do you deal with conjurations that hurt creature swarms? Just power up Shaggoth?
Yes Venomous Zombies are very helpful, but I chose to have 4 Zombie Minions because they are more useful against non-living creatures.
Libro and Graveyard are both really great in my opinion, but there are a few reasons why I prefer Graveyard: 1) Libro can be dissolved, Graveyard can't; 2) Graveyard is burnproof and immune to lightning; 3) Graveyard generates mana more rapidly, especially since you can trigger it with the destruction of both your creatures and your opponent's creatures. The drawback is that you don't always get to summon zombies right in your mage's zone but for me it is worth the tradeoff. I have found that it is difficult to get back in matches if Libro is dissolved.
I don't have Veteran's Belt, it is Colossus Belt. ;)
To be honest I don't always "swarm" with this build. I do whatever seems best at the time. My fallback is to rely on a few beefy creatures and my eternal servant ability. It isn't perfect but what are you going to do? But if I am swarming and I see Mordok's Obelisk I always try to take it out, possibly by using Zombie Frenzy. I was considering swapping out two invisible fist for one force hammer but I tend to prefer invisible fist for dispatching incorporeal threats (something the dark mages have a hard time dealing with.) I end up using Shaggoth and the Zombie Brutes as guards more than anything else (they aren't pests) but they make excellent threats too.
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Ah, I misread the belt.
So far I've been focusing on Venomous Zombies against Living creatures and Zombie Brutes against Nonliving creatures, but I haven't really played against Nonliving creatures enough to see whether I'm happy with those matchups.
The Graveyard has a stronger potential late game, but I prefer Libro because of it's stronger early game. If my opponent tries to Dissolve it and I already have 4 Venomous Zombies down, oh well. I'm probably fine.
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As far as tactics go I like harmonizing graveyard and using graveyard to summon all level 2 and level 3 zombies. I try to deploy from graveyard every round to keep the pressure on. Then I deploy zombie crawlers from libro every other round. Crawlers are more effective in your mages zone so it is sensible to deploy them from libro. From there you can either keep your crawlers around your mage to act as a buffer OR use a zombie frenzy to surge your crawlers forward.
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I really like this spellbook, and I am definitely going to use it to make my necro spellbook better. :)
Rise Again seems to be a good choice on account of the fact that the creatures rises in the zone it was killed in. Combine this with the fact that all of those kinds of zombies are Slow, and maybe you should take out an animate or 2 for Rise Again.
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I really like this spellbook, and I am definitely going to use it to make my necro spellbook better. :)
Rise Again seems to be a good choice on account of the fact that the creatures rises in the zone it was killed in. Combine this with the fact that all of those kinds of zombies are Slow, and maybe you should take out an animate or 2 for Rise Again.
Be careful with Rise Again, you need to keep mana banked in order to successfully use it. One game I foolishly attacked a creature near death, after my Mage had acted and used most of his mana. The creature died as the result of my attack and my Enchantment (less the "enchantment" more the wasted action) when straight to my discard pile, did not pass go, did not collect $200. It was quite painful, so much so, that I swapped it out of the book for another Animate Dead. It is a very cool card, just with my books I always seem mana starved and as a result it doesn't work well for me.
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I really like this spellbook, and I am definitely going to use it to make my necro spellbook better. :)
Rise Again seems to be a good choice on account of the fact that the creatures rises in the zone it was killed in. Combine this with the fact that all of those kinds of zombies are Slow, and maybe you should take out an animate or 2 for Rise Again.
For me Animate Dead > Rise Again because Necromancer can be very mana-starved, especially if you are using two spawnpoints. Another reason is that I think killing the enemy creatures faster is more important than killing them with the intention of reanimating them. Necromancer can be fragile so I tend to think of reanimation as more of a perk than a necessity. If anything the Necromancer is the last mage who needs reanimation since he practically has an infinite creature supply already.
If you want to fit in more curses and perhaps a block or two to keep your zombies alive then I would trim down to only 2 Unstable Zombie and 2 Plague Zombie. I just like having a lot of Plague Zombies because, like Venomous Zombies, they are very effective against mages that only use living creatures.
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Recent change: 2 Animate Dead out, 3 Block in
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I use both the altar of skulls and libro in my swarm book. I also use a combination of skeletons and zombies.
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I use both the altar of skulls and libro in my swarm book. I also use a combination of skeletons and zombies.
A mix of skeletons and zombies can be very effective. Both Deathfang's speed and Skeleton Archer's range can make up for your slow zombies, and it is helpful to have skeletons to guard your mage while your zombies go on the offensive.
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I'm thinking of changing my Necromancer build to be skeletons + Venomous Zombies.
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I'm thinking of changing my Necromancer build to be skeletons + Venomous Zombies.
I have tried skeletons+zombies necromancer where the only zombies I had were Venomous Zombies and Zombie Brutes. I have also tried a mix of mostly zombies supported by Grey Wraiths and Skeleton Archers. Both builds worked just as well as 100% zombies. With Necromancer you can easily just pick your favorite undead creatures (whether skeleton or zombie) and build a spellbook around them.
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Hey, is it just me, or does zombie frenzy seem to be a bit OP? In both necro games now, it's done tremendous damage. Namely, I can get his mage locked in a corner with the first, and then bind the second to a Mage Wand in the late game and play it every turn. We've found that this guy is unbeatable with anything or any strategy other than mass flyers (which can be countered by adding skeleton archers, maim wings, and drain life), and doing an all-in at the very beginning of the game, which isn't much fun.
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Hey, is it just me, or does zombie frenzy seem to be a bit OP? In both necro games now, it's done tremendous damage. Namely, I can get his mage locked in a corner with the first, and then bind the second to a Mage Wand in the late game and play it every turn. We've found that this guy is unbeatable with anything or any strategy other than mass flyers (which can be countered by adding skeleton archers, maim wings, and drain life), and doing an all-in at the very beginning of the game, which isn't much fun.
He is very powerful late game if you have a bunch of zombies out and use Zombie Frenzy, you end up with mobile kill pit. This strategy does not play well with a agro deck and one that puts at least a little pressure on early though.
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He did put a lot of pressure on me though - he had to retreat when I took his bat and his imp out, leaving his Mage alone and vulnerable. The zombie-swarm style necro seems to be unbeatable at anything short of an all-in. Please tell me I'm wrong.
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A bat and an Imp is not a lot of pressure, it is some pressure though. Luckily for Necromancer, [mwcard=DNC06]Kralathor, The Devourer[/mwcard] is Epic, so you only have to deal with one of them, as this guy loves to munch on zombies.
I think that Orb + Obelisk once the zombie swarm is out, is quite the killer as you will not have the mana needed for the Frenzy and then they are just lumbering around.
I think the new Fire based Warlock will be tough to deal with, with here ability to move Direct Damage around easily via her burns.
The main thing with the zombies is either separate one out from the heard and focus kill it, then rinse and repeat otherwise focus on the Mage as most of the time he is light on armor, Dissolve the Cloak of Shadows and any Mage Wand you see. And by all means don't let Shaggy get buffed up as he is a beast once he has eaten four or five of his kind.
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A bat and an imp is not a lot of pressure, correct. It is, however, a lot of pressure when said bat and imp are accompanied by a Warlock with demonhide armor, a fireshaper ring, a lash of hellfire, and an elemental wand with a fireball bound to it (Battleforges are nasty!!). We are going to play again, and this time, he will build his spellbook to make sure he can hurt me. He will try singling them out, as you said.
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Hey, is it just me, or does zombie frenzy seem to be a bit OP?
When you are playing against Druid your zombies are hindered by the Druid's vine markers, making Zombie Frenzy nearly useless as far as mobility is concerned. Zombie frenzy only seems OP if the opponent lets you get out too many zombies, but at that point the opponent is probably losing anyways. Zombie Frenzy has a steep cost for Necromancer, especially when you add in the fact that he can easily become mana starved if he is running two spawnpoints and/or the opponent puts down Obelisk or Suppression Orb.
So to answer your question I don't think zombie frenzy is OP. A card isn't OP just because it is very strong in certain scenarios. Kralathor is extremely powerful against Necromancer but that doesn't make him OP because he isn't as effective against the other mages.
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A bat and an imp is not a lot of pressure, correct. It is, however, a lot of pressure when said bat and imp are accompanied by a Warlock with demonhide armor, a fireshaper ring, a lash of hellfire, and an elemental wand with a fireball bound to it (Battleforges are nasty!!). We are going to play again, and this time, he will build his spellbook to make sure he can hurt me. He will try singling them out, as you said.
Never let your opponent have a wand for too long. Ever. I have learned this the hard way. People also seem to forget that "cowardly" tactics, such as retreating behind walls and creatures, are sometimes the best option.
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After FiF here is the new spellbook:
Conj: 6
1 Graveyard (4)
2 Wall of Bones (2)
Equip: 14
1 Cloak of Shadows (2)
1 Storm Drake Hide (2)
1 Leather Gloves (1)
1 Death Ring (1)
1 Libro Mortuos (3)
1 Colossus Belt (2)
1 Regrowth Belt (2)
1 Leather Boots (1)
Creatures: 39
6 Zombie Crawler (6)
4 Zombie Minion ( 8 )
4 Venomous Zombie ( 8 )
1 Shaggoth-Zora (3)
2 Unstable Zombie (4)
2 Plague Zombie (4)
2 Zombie Brute (6)
Enchant: 31
3 Maim Wings (3)
3 Marked for Death (3)
3 Poisoned Blood (3)
3 Ghoul Rot (6)
1 Death Link (2)
2 Harmonize (4)
1 Nullify (2)
3 Block (6)
2 Brace Yourself (2)
Incant: 22
2 Zombie Frenzy (4)
1 Seeking Dispel (2)
3 Dispel (6)
2 Force Push (4)
2 Disarm (2)
2 Dissolve (4)
Attack: 8
2 Invisible Fist (4)
1 Force Hammer (4)