Quicksand VS Spiked Pit

[Paleblue]

I'm curious what you guys think about these two cards. Both are great thematically and both are very similar in terms of effect, but it seems to me that Quicksand is better.

Reason I think this is that Quicksand is more likely to lock down a creature for longer + it is easier to use (Spike Pit needs someone to walk into it). In addition the Trap could be hit with seeking dispel / have an unintended creature walk into it. The only thing I'am not sure is if you can teleport out of the "stuck" condition the same way you can teleport out of Quicksand.

Cost wise Spike Trap would be better on higher level creatures whereas Quicksand is more effective vs mid to low level (although killing a high level creature would make it very effective).

What are your guys thoughts on these two cards?

[ringkichard]

Yeah, you can teleport out of stuck.

Stuck
Creature is Restrained and Unmovable. At the end of each of its Action Phases, a Stuck creature
may attempt an escape roll: on a roll of 7 or higher, remove Stuck. If creature is teleported, destroy
all Stuck conditions on it. Has a removal cost of 4. Does not affect conjurations.

I still really like Spiked Pit because it's instantaneous. I can teleport or forcepush my opponent into the pit during my quickcast, and I don't have to spend an action to keep him where I want him, I can just reveal the pit. It's the banked action that really makes the card for me. I also really like Spiked Pit because it works on the opponent's mage, who isn't a legal target for Quicksand.

Quicksand's a fine card, don't get me wrong, and Spiked Pit does require some tactical setup and babysitting. But I'm running 2 Spiked pit in the Warlord book I'm working on, and so far I haven't wanted to change them for Quicksands.

[baronzaltor]

If I remember right, you can teleport out of the Stuck condition as if it were a conjuration.

I think the most notable difference between Quicksand and other "stuck" sources is that Quicksand is more likely to force a Teleport.   Theres less risk involved with letting a creature wait out Stuck, because it doesnt kill them if they ignore it.  Quicksand is better at instilling a sense of panic in the player and possibly making them feel like they HAVE to break it to not lose the creature.

Usually when I use Quicksand, the opponent puts a pretty high priority on getting rid of it.  With Stuck, opponents tend to be much more willing to wait it out (unless there is some pressing matter that demands the creature be free of course)

[Paleblue]

Quicksand is definitely more likely to get a response from your opponent, which is good because it eats up there precious teleports. I'm curious why you think Spike Trap is more instantaneous than Quicksand Ring? I presume you mean that the damage is front loaded rather than a chance for an instant kill later. I think using force push is an expensive way to get people into the trap, whereas taunting them into it with Thorg is great move which I like.

Overall I don't think one is clearly better than the other, just have slightly different uses. And I agree that having the ability to use Spike Trap on the enemy Mage is very useful (if they are solo Quicksand is a complete waste).

Oh and thanks for clearing Stuck up for me, didn't have the rules in front of me so wasn't sure.

[ringkichard]

I'm curious why you think Spike Trap is more instantaneous than Quicksand Ring?

For example, in a recent new-book playtest game I could have used Spike Pit. My opponent was playing swarm Joctari Beastmaster with elusive from Animal Kinship. I had a couple of Iron Golems and Thorg, he had a bunch of Bobcats and two (psychic immune, ranged attack) flying Spiders. I was having a hard time forcing a confrontation, so I'd taken shelter from the Hunting Bow behind a Wall of Stone.

He misplayed and came into teleport range with the Beastmaster. He had a face down enchantment (obviously Nullify) on the mage, so I quickcast a Perfect Strike on him to bait the Nullify and then immediately used my action to Teleport him into the zone with all my heavy hitters.

Spiked pit would have been great here, because I could have used it to hold the Beastmaster in place even though I'd spent both my mage's actions already. I wouldn't have had a chance to use Quicksand (even if it worked on mages) or Tanglevine or Force Hold until the next quickcast which, depending on initiative, would have maybe given him a chance to Force Push away instead of Teleport (if he had initiative) or would compete with my next spell--Jinx, Teleport again, etc (if I had initiative). The Spiked Pit would have given me an action advantage during a time crunch by letting me bank the spell and use it immediately when required instead of waiting until I next could cast something with an action.

As it turned out, I had my spiked pit in the wrong Zone, so this example shows the weaknesses of both Quicksand (can't target Mages, a little slower) and Spiked Pit (trickier to play). With practice, I can improve my Spiked Pit play, but I can't change Quicksand, so I hope that in the long run, Spiked Pit will be better for me.

[sIKE]

Another thing to think about and add in to the mix, is that for 2 Mana, it(Spiked Pit) makes great Seeking dispel Bait. Both are very situational to me, I would also bring in Tanglevine in to the same conversation as it also has some matching functionality with Spiked Pit.

[piousflea]

Quicksand is (in most circumstances) vastly more efficient against creatures, but it cannot be played on Mages. Spike Pit is amazing against Mages, especially if you get the opportunity to Push an enemy Mage into your spike pit.

Also, Spike Pit's positional nature is sometimes really nice.

[Kharhaz]

... and two (psychic immune, ranged attack) flying Spiders

This game really has the very best imagery