Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sailor Vulcan on July 27, 2018, 02:50:20 PM
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I talked with sharkbait and he explained to me that this game is in dire need of some improvements that Arcane Wonders is unlikely to make, so we as a community need to do it ourselves. I've been kinda thinking that near the back of my mind for quite a while, so I've decided to take it upon myself to get this ball rolling.
In particular we need the following in order of priority:
1. Rules Cleanup (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=18754.0)
There are a number of messy or broken rules interactions that need fixing, and all of the rules need to be better organized in one place.
2. Card Errata (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=18755.0)
there are some overpowered or useless cards that need fixing, in that order.
EDIT: there are no overpowered cards in the game currently, but there could be in the future. Some errata may still be necessary however. This is explained in more detail in an edit to the original post.
This thread is for experienced mage wars players only, preferably those with ~2+ years of play. Obviously I can't prove who's been playing 2+ years and who hasn't, so we're using an honor system here.
3. Separate unofficial set-release schedules for Academy and Arena
We need to make separate unofficial release schedules for sets in both Academy and Arena, so that the balance of one game's metagame doesn't interfere with the balance of the other.
EDIT: This might become necessary in the future, not sure it's actually necessary right now. The game isn't THAT old yet, so perhaps it isn't time to worry about large imbalances of card support just yet. If it becomes necessary later I will open a thread for this.
This thread is for experienced mage wars players only, preferably those with ~2+ years of play. Obviously I can't prove who's been playing 2+ years and who hasn't, so we're using an honor system here.
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I agree as well Henry I have been posting things similar to this on forums lately as well as talking with others, I shall watch for your links and for one can't wait to get things covered as group to keep game alive and well sir ty
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Unless AW formally withdraw support for the game, and give it to teh community then I'm afraid that I'm very against these ideas. All you will do is fragment the playerbase even further - those playing canon rules, and those play community rules.
If they do draw a line under it, then sure you can continue. As of yet they haven't though.
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Unless AW formally withdraw support for the game, and give it to teh community then I'm afraid that I'm very against these ideas. All you will do is fragment the playerbase even further - those playing canon rules, and those play community rules.
If they do draw a line under it, then sure you can continue. As of yet they haven't though.
They already HAVE withdrawn most of their support for this game. I won't name names, but I've also spoken to experienced mage wars playtesters and there are some serious issues going on which Arcane Wonders is failing to address and is unlikely to fix any time soon if ever. This game itself isn't dying. But if I'm understanding what the playtesters told me correctly, it is struggling, and the long term health of the competitive play scene is in jeopardy, even though not everyone knows enough about the situation to realize it. If we continue waiting for Arcane Wonders to give more attention to this game when they probably aren't going to, if we only use official arcane wonders sanctioned rulings, then the metagame will likely suffer badly for a very long time.
At this point the consequences of splitting the community between admw house rules and official arcane wonders rules pales in comparison to the consequences of not doing that. And by the way, that split already exists. Most octgn mage wars players use the admw rules rather than the official rules. What I'm proposing is that we as a community stick to admw house rules and setting those as the standard for unofficial competitive play, a category which as far as I know includes basically all competitive mage wars tournaments except gen con. This means that if we ever encounter an imbalance, inconsistency or other problem in the rules, we would just need to update the admw rules rather than waiting forever for a ruling from Arcane Wonders which may never come.
Furthermore if I may be blunt, the more experienced mage wars players understand this game significantly better than arcane wonders does at this point.
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I guess I should clarify on here too:
My OPINION (this opinion does not represent Arcane Wonders, Arcane Duels, or any other group to whom I've ever spoken :P ) is that there are some rules interactions that need cleaned up in a re-written ruleset. The rule supplement being ~50 pages tells me that some things just aren't clear in the base ruleset and can be re-examined to be improved.
I would tend toward minor, incremental changes. Fix things that academy's required wording leaves loopholes in, fix some of the trample interactions, etc. Then, once that's been done and things shake out, identify the next problem and brainstorm ideas to fix them.
You can't jump directly into changing meta defining things until the foundation is made a bit more secure, so unclear or unintended rules interpretations need to be addressed as much as possible before anything can be built upon it.
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1) some rules/cards create problems during the game, these must be clarified (should be clarified by AW!!!)
for example, the initiative problems...
2) some rules/cards are too complicated for too little game gain, these could be changed... but do we agree on which these rules are?
for example, I think that there are too many conditions for the same "agravated wound" effect.
3) some rules/cards are bad making the game less fun, these could be changed... but I'm sure we don't agree on these ;D
for example, I think spellbind makes the building too lazy and the games too repetitive (in my group we eliminated spellbind).
I don't think there's a rule's organisation problem (evolutive game are allways a little messy!)
and I agree with Kelanen that the impuls should come from AW.
and I don't understand the "set-release schedules" part.
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The problem with the set release schedules is that AW is trying to synchronize them between academy and arena, at the expense of game balance in arena. Cards which would be good for academy's meta at a particular point in time may not be helpful to the arena metagame at that time. For instance, academy priestess was released at a time when the holy school already had an advantage in card support in arena.
1) some rules/cards create problems during the game, these must be clarified (should be clarified by AW!!!)
for example, the initiative problems...
2) some rules/cards are too complicated for too little game gain, these could be changed... but do we agree on which these rules are?
for example, I think that there are too many conditions for the same "agravated wound" effect.
3) some rules/cards are bad making the game less fun, these could be changed... but I'm sure we don't agree on these ;D
for example, I think spellbind makes the building too lazy and the games too repetitive (in my group we eliminated spellbind).
I don't think there's a rule's organisation problem (evolutive game are allways a little messy!)
and I agree with Kelanen that the impuls should come from AW.
and I don't understand the "set-release schedules" part.
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They already HAVE withdrawn most of their support for this game. I won't name names, but I've also spoken to experienced mage wars playtesters and there are some serious issues going on which Arcane Wonders is failing to address and is unlikely to fix any time soon if ever. This game itself isn't dying. But if I'm understanding what the playtesters told me correctly, it is struggling, and the long term health of the competitive play scene is in jeopardy, even though not everyone knows enough about the situation to realize it. If we continue waiting for Arcane Wonders to give more attention to this game when they probably aren't going to, if we only use official arcane wonders sanctioned rulings, then the metagame will likely suffer badly for a very long time.
I am an experienced MW player and a playtester myself, and I agree that is the situation. That doesn't change my view however. I'd rather stick with the official canon game.
At this point the consequences of splitting the community between admw house rules and official arcane wonders rules pales in comparison to the consequences of not doing that.
I disagree.
And by the way, that split already exists. Most octgn mage wars players use the admw rules rather than the official rules.
It does, and it's a bad thing. It's AW's fault, but that doesn't make it a good thing.
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They already HAVE withdrawn most of their support for this game. I won't name names, but I've also spoken to experienced mage wars playtesters and there are some serious issues going on which Arcane Wonders is failing to address and is unlikely to fix any time soon if ever. This game itself isn't dying. But if I'm understanding what the playtesters told me correctly, it is struggling, and the long term health of the competitive play scene is in jeopardy, even though not everyone knows enough about the situation to realize it. If we continue waiting for Arcane Wonders to give more attention to this game when they probably aren't going to, if we only use official arcane wonders sanctioned rulings, then the metagame will likely suffer badly for a very long time.
I am an experienced MW player and a playtester myself, and I agree that is the situation. That doesn't change my view however. I'd rather stick with the official canon game.
At this point the consequences of splitting the community between admw house rules and official arcane wonders rules pales in comparison to the consequences of not doing that.
I disagree.
And by the way, that split already exists. Most octgn mage wars players use the admw rules rather than the official rules.
It does, and it's a bad thing. It's AW's fault, but that doesn't make it a good thing.
So you'd rather just let the competitive metagame suffer indefinitely? I'm not sure I understand why you'd want that.
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So you'd rather just let the competitive metagame suffer indefinitely? I'm not sure I understand why you'd want that.
Because I hold keeping a single canon game as a higher priority than fan fixes and house rules to a game. Not just this game, but every CCG, and boardgame I've played. I'm very much an official rules only guy.
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Unless AW formally withdraw support for the game, and give it to the community then I'm afraid that I'm very against these ideas. All you will do is fragment the playerbase even further - those playing canon rules, and those play community rules.
If they do draw a line under it, then sure you can continue. As of yet they haven't though.
All we've been doing, for the last few months, is argue and argue about if Mage Wars is "dead"- nothing has ever come of that, other then a "Arcane Wonders are still releasing content, stop complaining!" every time a thread pops up. No one ever proposes a new idea to get the game rolling, some of us just expect things to get better as time passes, out of blind confidence and faith in a game that is frankly past its prime.
Finally, a member of this community has stepped up and proposed something to make the game better and more interesting, and the fact is that Arcane Wonders has shown that they're not going to do anything about it, so it's up to the community to make things right. You can wait all you want for Arcane Wonders to 'relinquish' the game to the community, but most of us are tired of sitting here while the company does nothing, and frankly I find it a bit ridiculous that you are clinging to Arcane Wonders when they have been almost non-existent with the community and haven't done anything to make things better.
If there are some people that want to use different rules, let them; it's not going to matter if a family at home uses a different set of rules then you do, because in the grand scheme of things there aren't enough people who play this game frequently enough who actually care about if there is another set of rules. The rules at tournaments will be different? Okay then, just go to the tournament expecting a different set of rules to play with. You cannot expect a 'great schism' in the community with the separation of different rules, when the community is so little and non-existant anyways.
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There may not be a need to separate these self-management project ideas from Arcane Wonders. It is possible to create a proposed new 'streamlined' version of the rules with an integrated supplement and codex as a community project.
The community can then offer this 'proposal' to Arcane Wonders for potential publication on the official website.
In essence we would become temporary workers volunteering our time to improve the game. By creating a reasonable solution to some of the perceived problems with the current ruleset, we make it easier for Arcane Wonders to deliver an official solution. i.e. they don't need to invest their limited manpower to do this work since the community created an initial solution. Then AW would only need to invest a smaller portion of their time to review, edit and 'officially approve' the proposal.
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There may not be a need to separate these self-management project ideas from Arcane Wonders. It is possible to create a proposed new 'streamlined' version of the rules with an integrated supplement and codex as a community project.
The community can then offer this 'proposal' to Arcane Wonders for potential publication on the official website.
In essence we would become temporary workers volunteering our time to improve the game. By creating a reasonable solution to some of the perceived problems with the current ruleset, we make it easier for Arcane Wonders to deliver an official solution. i.e. they don't need to invest their limited manpower to do this work since the community created an initial solution. Then AW would only need to invest a smaller portion of their time to review, edit and 'officially approve' the proposal.
I really like this idea.
That being said, I don't think any card errata need to be made except for the ones that are already included in ADMW tournament house rules.
Aside from that, Academy card interactions in Arena need to be clarified.
I'm not sure if there's anything else off the top of my head. I thought there was more balance issues at one point, but then it turned out I was wrong.
Also if there's any way to make incorporeal creatures viable again? They were discussing a rule change to ethereal attack trait. Is that still worth considering?
Anything I missed?
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I think there is an opportunity to analyze the Rules Supplement and look for ways to change or clarify the base rules so the supplement is reduced in size. For example, a player aid called Spell Interaction Chart might be an easier way to manage some of the information and remove it from the Supplement.
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In essence we would become temporary workers volunteering our time to improve the game. By creating a reasonable solution to some of the perceived problems with the current ruleset, we make it easier for Arcane Wonders to deliver an official solution. i.e. they don't need to invest their limited manpower to do this work since the community created an initial solution. Then AW would only need to invest a smaller portion of their time to review, edit and 'officially approve' the proposal.
Manpower hasn't been the issue - Ivan has always been the rules guru anyway, not anyone at AW.
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Finally, a member of this community has stepped up and proposed something to make the game better and more interesting, and the fact is that Arcane Wonders has shown that they're not going to do anything about it, so it's up to the community to make things right. You can wait all you want for Arcane Wonders to 'relinquish' the game to the community, but most of us are tired of sitting here while the company does nothing, and frankly I find it a bit ridiculous that you are clinging to Arcane Wonders when they have been almost non-existent with the community and haven't done anything to make things better.
That's great you see it as a positive development - I don't. Stagnation is not the worst situation (but yes it's bad).
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[/img]Finally, a member of this community has stepped up and proposed something to make the game better and more interesting, and the fact is that Arcane Wonders has shown that they're not going to do anything about it, so it's up to the community to make things right. You can wait all you want for Arcane Wonders to 'relinquish' the game to the community, but most of us are tired of sitting here while the company does nothing, and frankly I find it a bit ridiculous that you are clinging to Arcane Wonders when they have been almost non-existent with the community and haven't done anything to make things better.
That's great you see it as a positive development - I don't. Stagnation is not the worst situation (but yes it's bad).
Let people do what they want to do- you think community game management is bad, then move on- there are a lot of great games released nowadays that are a lot better. Let people who enjoy the game continue on enjoying it.
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Let people do what they want to do- you think community game management is bad, then move on- there are a lot of great games released nowadays that are a lot better. Let people who enjoy the game continue on enjoying it.
You misunderstand me - I DO enjoy the game as it is now, and play regularly. However voicing my opinion is important, because fracturing teh community even further will reduce my playerbase (and thus enjoyment in future.
You are absolutely entitled to voice your support for this, as am I to do the reverse...
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Let people do what they want to do- you think community game management is bad, then move on- there are a lot of great games released nowadays that are a lot better. Let people who enjoy the game continue on enjoying it.
However voicing my opinion is important, because fracturing teh community even further will reduce my playerbase (and thus enjoyment in future.
So there is a strong playerbase that doesn’t follow this forum, nor do they follow Arcane Wonders on social media- these people honestly couldn’t care less about a rule change and community management, because in the end they play other games to occupy their time, and have a more varied set of games on their shelves.
That leaves a small minority of individuals who follow this community management initiative, and who wish to speak about it. I’m not sure how many people attend a single tournament on average these days, but let’s suppose that there is an average of 40 people: this means that out of the 40 people, 10 of them would be upset about a rule change and have problems the way the tournament is run. You’re saying that this would fracture the playerbase, even though the interested number of players is so small that a change of rules would only make a few people upset - this is not a problem in the grand scheme of things.
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this is not a problem in the grand scheme of things.
For you. I'm entitled to feel differently.
But this conversation is going nowhere. We have different opinions, and that's fine.
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this is not a problem in the grand scheme of things.
For you. I'm entitled to feel differently.
But this conversation is going nowhere. We have different opinions, and that's fine.
If you think that 5 people on this forum being unhappy is going to ruin the community then fine- that is your opinion, but in the end you are making a big deal out of nothing: most of the playerbase simply won’t care about community management.
And heck, look at the bright side: if people refuse to continue playing Mage Wars, they can start playing other board games and they can expand their board game shelves to include more then just 1 game.
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Barely play the game anymore. Just popped in because I was browsing something to fill a min shipping order but from a very casual player feedback who's trying to get it on the table when a friend comes over: the main issue is that when I make a spellbook for someone, the rules explanation itself take 30 minutes (at least) and then they have to read 20-30 different cards (all of which are very different from each other) before they can make their first move ...
I've been trying to make simpler and simpler decks such as nothing but basic stats line creatures and stats buffs/debuffs/movements but even then it's a slog to get in a game.
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Barely play the game anymore. Just popped in because I was browsing something to fill a min shipping order but from a very casual player feedback who's trying to get it on the table when a friend comes over: the main issue is that when I make a spellbook for someone, the rules explanation itself take 30 minutes (at least) and then they have to read 20-30 different cards (all of which are very different from each other) before they can make their first move ...
I've been trying to make simpler and simpler decks such as nothing but basic stats line creatures and stats buffs/debuffs/movements but even then it's a slog to get in a game.
Some tips for teaching new players.
I use the Core Set apprentice mode to teach the game to newcomers. The arena is smaller and spellbooks are smaller (around 60 spellpoints). The books don't use the Conjuration spell type and don't involve several of the more complex creature traits. You can find a scaled down version of the Codex here https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/120066/mage-wars-apprentice-codex-2015 to simplify looking up keywords using this mode of play. New players can also find these apprentice books online at the Arcane Wonders resources page so they can read them before a game session if they want.
When teaching the game, I start with the victory condition, an explanation of the mage status chart, and then start playing the game with the initiative phase. I provide a brief statement for each phase of the ready stage until we get to Planning. Here I explain the anatomy of a spell card using one of each of the 5 spell types as an example. Describing the casting line from left to right works best as a starting point. The casting line has common elements among 4 spell types in Apprentice mode with some additional details needed for the Enchantment spells. I always recommend a creature and piece of equipment for the first turn and remind players that spells you decide not to cast will go back in your book. i.e. you don't lose a spell if you plan and then don't cast it.
At the start of the Action Stage I explain each of the 4 core actions in the game and then address more specific rules as they arise rather than try to explain them all up front before beginning the game. Players are usually fine with this approach as long as you explain what you are doing. I often follow up my moves in a teaching game with my reason for the move so the new player can learn while we play.
I can share additional tips if you want. Just send me a private message here or on the BGG site.
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I would love to be apart of this. Better then talking about how nothing is being done. For all we know something may come from this, if not then at least we have some house rules to play with.