Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Miroque on June 10, 2018, 07:13:47 AM
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I got different answers from the German Mage Wars Community, so I wanted to make it clear:
The Academy Card "Focused Strike" says:
"The target's next non-spell attack this round rolls an additional attack die, gains the Piercing +1 trait, and the Unavoidable trait."
Is "attack" in Academy always equal to use with "attack action" in Arena (when you take this cards in your Arena games)? According to this two threads about Shifratar and Badger Frenzy, I think it could:
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=18511.0
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=18513.msg88581#msg88581
And there are other Academy Spells like "Straywood Scout" or even "Pigmy Titanodon", which refers to "making an attack" or something similar.
So because Focused Strike doesn't say "Melee +1", I assume that (in Arena) it rolls one more die of each attack in an attack action, for instance Triplestrike (Hydra), Doublestrike (Badger Frenzy) or Sweeping (Shifratar). Is that true or not? (the same question about the Piercing +1 and the Unavoidable part)
On top you could add Battle Fury, for instance targeting a "Deptonne Berserker" making his quick Doublestrike attack twice (if there is a bleed condition around).
In the Supplement we have clarifications on "Piercing Strike" and "Perfect Strke" ("only affects the next attack, not the entire next attack action"), but for those Academy Cards we don't.
Or maybe there are differences between the cards: So with Focused Strike you can get 4 more dices (plus Piercing and Unavoidable) out of an Battle Fury+Badger Frendy attack, but only affecting the first strike of the Triplestrike from the Hydra...?
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the additional attack only applies to the very next attack that creature makes. in every case (straywood scout, charge, bear strength, hawkeye, focused strike, etc) the extra die gained only applies to the first attack. so a doublestrikeing timberwolf lets say, would roll 5 dice on the 1st and 4 dice on the 2nd attack.
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When the card says “for the next attack” you can get it once or not at all (if you don’t attack).
Doing a sweeping strike is in this context is 2 attacks. Only the first benefits.
If the creature is guarding from last round while you cast this and it does a counter strike then it will use this “buff” during the coubterstrike and will not receive it again when activating during the turn.
If it had bear strength on the other hand... then it will both get +2 melee when doing counter strike and when activating later.
If either of this attack did sweeping/double/triple it would only get he bonus for the very first attack of the counterstrike and the very first attack made from its action later for a total of 2 benefits assuming its attacked while guarding and actually does a counter strike.
Wolffury grants the piercing on every attack including sweeping/double/triple. But the +melee part is similar to bear strength.
You mention badger.
It does not “stack” with battle fury for a total of 4 attack’s.
If an ordinary minor animal creature has badger frenzy and is before it attacks being buffed with battle fury then it will do 1 attack with double strike. When those 2 are resolved (including giving opponent a single chance to counter strike and a single potential damage barrier), then it will start a new attack sequence (assuming its alive) where it can target same or a new target with a single attack that has no double strike. Opponent gets new chance to counterstrike (if able and potential damage barrier can trigger again).
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You mention badger.
It does not “stack” with battle fury for a total of 4 attack’s.
If an ordinary minor animal creature has badger frenzy and is before it attacks being buffed with battle fury then it will do 1 attack with double strike. When those 2 are resolved (including giving opponent a single chance to counter strike and a single potential damage barrier), then it will start a new attack sequence (assuming its alive) where it can target same or a new target with a single attack that has no double strike. Opponent gets new chance to counterstrike (if able and potential damage barrier can trigger again).
I'm not so sure about that. We played it that way at German Nationals (4 attacks with Battle Fury+Badger Frenzy), because of this thread and Zuberi's answer: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=18511.0
("Badger Frenzy is destroyed at step 10 [...]. If you cast Battle Fury as well, then you will indeed get 4 attacks. Doubling up on Doublestrike is absolutely very powerful, and something that we watched during playtesting.")
So you go to the steps 8 damage barrier and 9 counterstrike, and after that, another quick Doublestrike attack happens. Zuberi mentioned only that "neither badger frenzy nor battle fury would activate in conjunction with a sweeping strike / whirling strike", because these two spells tell to "use a full action to make a quick action melee attack" (Battle Fury requires a quick action, and now it is a full action).
I'm just a little confused with zot's reply on page 2 (same thread), in which he mentioned Shifratar+Battle Fury only gets max. 3 attacks. But it seems to be the same day, Zuberi and zot agreed on max. 4 attacks, in this thread: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=18513.msg88581#msg88581 :o
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Badger frenzy is an enchantment, that makes the difference: it will stay on the creature.
that's why both of the battlefury's attacks are, one after the other, "the next attack" and get the double strike.
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with shifratar, i would say that if you pay mana for the first of BF's attacks, you get sweeping on the first, and if you pay for the second you get sweeping for the second (and you have to pay 2x3 mana to have 4 attacks).
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As referenced in one of the linked threads, I remember a discussion I had about using the word "attack" to mean different things between the two games would bite us in the butt. In general, I would recommend reading all text on Academy cards, when used in Arena, to mean the same thing they generally would in Arena. So this would only work on one attack, like the other "Strike" cards. And I'm pretty sure that was the intention.
The problem is, that causes some of the other academy cards to behave a bit wonky in Arena. In Arena, each roll of the dice is one attack, and the entirety of the attack steps is an attack action. Normally if something gained a trait for one attack, it would lose it before doing another attack in the "Additional Strikes" step. But having that happen with traits like doublestrike and sweeping doesn't make sense because it would lose them before they could actually be utilized. They become nonsense on certain Academy cards and the cards would be useless if played as written. Obviously, we're not going to have useless cards. So we had to do some mental gymnastics and make special exceptions for them to get them to work. This resulted in "well, attack should just be attack action in this case." That allows those cards to function and makes sense because Academy has the two terms being synonymous. But these should really be considered special exceptions, and not a precedent to judge other cards by. In general, just play the cards as written.
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As referenced in one of the linked threads, I remember a discussion I had about using the word "attack" to mean different things between the two games would bite us in the butt. In general, I would recommend reading all text on Academy cards, when used in Arena, to mean the same thing they generally would in Arena. So this would only work on one attack, like the other "Strike" cards. And I'm pretty sure that was the intention.
The problem is, that causes some of the other academy cards to behave a bit wonky in Arena. In Arena, each roll of the dice is one attack, and the entirety of the attack steps is an attack action. Normally if something gained a trait for one attack, it would lose it before doing another attack in the "Additional Strikes" step. But having that happen with traits like doublestrike and sweeping doesn't make sense because it would lose them before they could actually be utilized. They become nonsense on certain Academy cards and the cards would be useless if played as written. Obviously, we're not going to have useless cards. So we had to do some mental gymnastics and make special exceptions for them to get them to work. This resulted in "well, attack should just be attack action in this case." That allows those cards to function and makes sense because Academy has the two terms being synonymous. But these should really be considered special exceptions, and not a precedent to judge other cards by. In general, just play the cards as written.
Should we add this to the "rules uncertainty" thread? :)
Perhaps the next version of the Rules Supplement could have a section that explains all the differences between Academy and Arena rules, terminology, etc. This would help players of both product lines and potential customers.
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It's annoying when I have to explain to new Academy players how double strike and sweeping work. Clearer terminology would help in Academy too. This isn't just a problem in Arena.
Personally I think it was a mistake to change so much of the terminology between Arena and Academy. It makes it confusing to transition between them. I also think it should use the terms "action" and "quick cast action", instead of "activation" and "quick cast". The action phase should instead be called the actions phase. That way it's clear: during the actions phase, creatures perform their actions. That way it would be much more intuitive, and I wouldn't have to re-explain it over and over and over again every single time I play Academy with my few irl Academy -playing friends.
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No no, rules are crystal clear and no problem. Haven't you read the thread? Tzzz! :P
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How does” sweeping strike” interact with a quick action melee double strike ? (You must p
(Either badger frenzy minor animal creature or the bloodthirsty shark.)
Do you get 2 attacks on target A and 4 attacks on target B?
Or
2 attacks on target A and 2 attacks on target?
Or
Something else I can’t figure out.
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"once this round" on sweeping strike.
so, the shark gets the sweeping on one strike and normal on the other strike.
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How does” sweeping strike” interact with a quick action melee double strike ? (You must p
(Either badger frenzy minor animal creature or the bloodthirsty shark.)
Do you get 2 attacks on target A and 4 attacks on target B?
Or
2 attacks on target A and 2 attacks on target?
Or
Something else I can’t figure out.
Some traits, such as Triplestrike, allow the attacker to make
additional attacks against the same target. Once the first
strike is finished, you get to make these additional strikes.
Each additional strike is resolved, one at a time, following
these 4 steps: Roll to Miss, Avoid Attack, Roll Dice, Damage
and Effects.
Note: All of these strikes are still part of the same attack
action, and the defender will still only get one damage
barrier attack and one counterstrike!
After the final strike is resolved, proceed to Step 8.
So the attack has both the sweeping and doublestrike traits; you resolve each additional attack one at a time at a legal target for that additional attack.
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Some traits, such as Triplestrike, allow the attacker to make
additional attacks against the same target. Once the first
strike is finished, you get to make these additional strikes.
Each additional strike is resolved, one at a time, following
these 4 steps: Roll to Miss, Avoid Attack, Roll Dice, Damage
and Effects.
Note: All of these strikes are still part of the same attack
action, and the defender will still only get one damage
barrier attack and one counterstrike!
After the final strike is resolved, proceed to Step 8.
So the attack has both the sweeping and doublestrike traits; you resolve each additional attack one at a time at a legal target for that additional attack.
oups... i answered to quickly...
so, the extra attacks allways apply on attack action?
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I’m still confused....
What’s the answer? 2 or 4?
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3 ;D
when you make an attack ACTION, you get one more attack for the doublestrike and one more attack for the sweeping.
but i'm not sure...
and with battle fury?
since the 2 attacks are part of the same attack action, is it right that a doublestrike or sweeping trait wold only add 1 attack (not 1 attack for each BF's attack)?
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So a creature with both the double and sweeping traits on an attack (regardless how it happens for clarity)
You go through the steps as per normal. When you get to additional strikes you can use doublestrike.
at the end of the attack you use your sweeping attack sequence to make an attack at a different creature, since it is still part of the same sequence you do not get another doublestrike.
Adding battle fury on top is easy, but its not worded that way. Battle fury will add to the end of the sequence, with a brand new attack sequence (as per the card text), but it is still considered part of the original attack.
You can reveal reveal badger frenzy after the original attack sequence, during the battle fury or sweeping sequences, and make use of the additional attack at the end of either of those, but its always in the Same original "attack" so you only get the traits effect once.
Make sense?
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Make sense?
euh... i'm lost...
i understand the traits, that have a step to make a loop.
but why double strike before sweeeping? (why coudn't i strike once the first creature and two times the second?)
now, BF makes a new attack in the attack action. is it written somewhere that the traits apply only for the first attack?
last, with badger frenzy, i can't see why it woudn't give double strike to both of BF's attack, since both are "the next" at turn.
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Doublestrike (Attack Trait)
This attack makes a second attack against the same target as part of
the same attack action. The additional attack occurs during the
Additional Strikes Step.
Doublestrike must be used in the additional attack sequence.
Sweeping and Battle fury are seperate attack sequences that happen at the end of the original attack sequence.
Badger Frenzy says, "the next attack" and "that attack gains doublestrike". So you can only ever get one attack from BF, yes they're in the same action but it's a seperate attack that is in addition to the first sequence.
Sweeping and Battlefury let you make another attack, as part of the same attack action.
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according to the link someone posted where Zuberi explains that the time that battle fury occurs and the destruction effect of badger frenzy is simultaneous- so the obvious choice is to resolve battle fury before destruction of the enchantment.
Text on enchantment just says “next attack”. And apparently next attack can happen many times (and benefit).
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we have different interpretations here!
1) badger frenzy is a special case, i read it as Jacksmack does: there can be many "next attacks" until the enchantment is destroyed.
2) if there is multiple attacks (BF or sweeping), each attack has an additional strike step, i think each attack should get the additional strike.
3) if you have multiple multiple attacks (BF and sweeping)... but i think we don't have the cards to make that happen...
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3) if you have multiple multiple attacks (BF and sweeping)... but i think we don't have the cards to make that happen...
What’s wrong with casting sweeping strike and battle fury on deptonne berserker when there is something bleeding in the zone?
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3) if you have multiple multiple attacks (BF and sweeping)... but i think we don't have the cards to make that happen...
What’s wrong with casting sweeping strike and battle fury on deptonne berserker when there is something bleeding in the zone?
right... ok... my vision of the situation:
the shark has double strike
the attack gains sweeping if full action
there's one more quick attack
-> the shark can use a full action to make double strike on a first creature and double strike on a second creature, after that he can make a double strike on any creature -> TOTAL = 6 strikes
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3) if you have multiple multiple attacks (BF and sweeping)... but i think we don't have the cards to make that happen...
What’s wrong with casting sweeping strike and battle fury on deptonne berserker when there is something bleeding in the zone?
right... ok... my vision of the situation:
the shark has double strike
the attack gains sweeping if full action
there's one more quick attack
-> the shark can use a full action to make double strike on a first creature and double strike on a second creature, after that he can make a double strike on any creature -> TOTAL = 6 strikes
I have been trying my hardest to show how this is wrong, since it does not make intuitive sense to me.
However, If we accept that traits cannot be lost, I cannot find a hole in this thinking.
The casting of Sweeping Attack on the Berserker means that the quick action doublestrike attack is converted to a full action sweeping doublestrike attack.
So this means that the Berserker makes two successive doublestrike attacks against two targets, changing between them at Step 7, additional strikes.
Once that is done, we proceed to Step 10, Attack Ends, where the Battle Fury kicks in, allowing the Berserker to make a final quick attack. As the Berserker’s only quick attack can be a doublestrike, this could allow the Berserker to hit one target an additional two times.
Now, I am not sure if this is rules as intended, but since it needs such a deliberate set up by the Berserker’s player in order to trigger, I would be willing to let it go if an opponent launched the sequence.
(To get 6 x 3 dice attacks, it is so much easier to simply cast Overextend on Ludwig Boltstorm...)
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When in doubt you have to go with the golden rule,
"What's printed on the card overrides the rules"
Frenzy applies to your next attack, which is essentially one roll of the dice, and then is destroyed "after that attack". You cannot extend the duration into another attack. Starting another attack happens after the first which is when the card destroys itself.
Battle fury adds one extra attack ACTION, at the end of your attack current attack ACTION, but it still counts as the same action. It's a new action and all traits that last for one action are removed before you get to the new action.
The sweeping trait in academy works as intended, im not sure why Zuberi is insistant that it wouldn't work as written........ from the academy codex:
"Sweeping
This attack has a wide sweeping arc. After completing its first attack, a Sweeping attack may make a second attack against a different target. The second attack begins with a new Declare Attack Step. The second attack cannot be made against the same target as the first attack."
Battle fury with doublestrike (or a sweeping quick melee attack) would apply it's ability to each of the attacks, since as we have seen the doublestrike trait applies only in the additional attack step.
So a Berserker in a zone with a creature that has a bleed conditon and is under the effects of a sweeping strike, can make a total of 4 attacks (2 primary target, 2 secondary)
It can also make a total of 4 attacks with a battle fury and a creature with a bleed condition in it's zone. (2 first attack, 2 second attack)
And a total of 6 with both traits, as long as the Beserkers ability is still active
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To add further confusion to this muddy rules knot:
"Doublestrike
This attack makes a second attack against the same target as part of the same attack action. The additional attack occurs during the Additional Strikes Step."
On a strick RAW, I am not 100% that double strike can even trigger more than once in a single attack action. The wording is clearly a "second" and not "additional" or some other word to indicate it can trigger more than once per attack action, which all of these combo still count as that same attack sequence......
My previous post is assuming that you can use it multiple times, which I don't think you can now.....