May 09, 2024, 06:11:05 AM

Author Topic: I feel the temple is overpowered  (Read 16118 times)

Shad0w

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Re: I feel the temple is overpowered
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2013, 11:38:01 AM »
For us to see what was the optimal line of play we need the full list Pious played. Looking back in hind site will do nobody any good until we get all the data.

I sincerely doubt we're going to get all the data.  And what data we already have access to indicates 18 wasted mana.  You don't have to be an exceptional MW player to know that wasting 18 mana will easily lose you the game.

 ::) :-X
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DeckBuilder

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Re: I feel the temple is overpowered
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2013, 12:38:24 PM »
@ Reddawan and Jacksmack

I am going to post this in the rules section of this Forum and BGG. Because my interpretation of the p29 sidebar is that Flyers (Elusive, Retrained/Incapacitated/Pest Guards) are the exception to the generic Protect the Zone Guard rule. And the exception to the Flyer exception is when it is attacking a ground creature. I have read the "Protect the Zone" paragraph and the "Ignoring Guards" sidebar and there is no doubt that Flyers attacking ground creatures is the exception to the exception as worded in the rules.

Is there a FAQ on this? I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to clear this up and I will readily accept a FAQ that goes against my interpretation. I don't want to be a literal rules lawyer but MW is incredibly precise in its wording (e.g. decoy states "zone or object", allowing it to be cast on enchants or equipment for when we get future enchants that can attach to these cards). That is why I have assumed that the reference to creature in the sidebar means that attacking conjurations is not an exception to the Flyer exception.

This could just be ambiguous wording that a FAQ will clarify (this FAQ could also add that ToL is Epic :)!). But this thread on ToL is not the right place to debate this rule. Which surely must have been picked up already?
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

reddawn

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Re: I feel the temple is overpowered
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2013, 12:45:23 PM »
For us to see what was the optimal line of play we need the full list Pious played. Looking back in hind site will do nobody any good until we get all the data.

I sincerely doubt we're going to get all the data.  And what data we already have access to indicates 18 wasted mana.  You don't have to be an exceptional MW player to know that wasting 18 mana will easily lose you the game.

 ::) :-X
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You don't fool me Shadow.  I see through your illusory manipulations!  8)
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DeckBuilder

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Re: I feel the temple is overpowered
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2013, 12:53:27 PM »

Here is some specific advice.

Don't wear white underpants.

More people in car crashes wear white undergarments than any other colour. Ergo wearing white undergarments is more likely to cause you to be involved in a car crash.

Oh Mr G, you disappoint me, to resort to that old chestnut, the "correlation is not causality" fallacy, albeit in jest... As a fellow Brit, I am ashamed :). You should be above such cheap sophistry :)
 
I hypothesise the wealthier demographic of car crash involvement (more likely to be car owners) and white underpants wearers (more likely to afford model-style Calvin Kleins with a short lifespan due to white colour) may be a contributing factor in your example.

Still, it's similar to the reason I give to myself when I try to justify why I haven't learnt to swim or drive yet (where the frequency of exposure to the hazardous activity is what drives the low fatalities of non-swimmers and non-drivers).

I shall download OCTGN soon and hunt you down for a game. The gauntlet was thrown by you, good sir, and you shall not find me easy prey, I assure you...
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 12:55:34 PM by DeckBuilder »
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Fentum

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Re: I feel the temple is overpowered
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2013, 03:12:11 PM »

Bring it on Mr DeckBuilder.

My Calvin Kleins are like a shield of steel.

Black, naturally.

DeckBuilder

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Re: I feel the temple is overpowered
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2013, 03:16:26 PM »
@Tacullu64

I have read several of your posts and I respect your obvious experience and skill at the game. Please don't take this post disagreeing with you as disrespectful. It does not change the high regard I have for your knowledge and skill at this game.

You make a valid point that whether a card makes the game appealing to new players should not be a contributing factor. Everyone has their own preference on how accessible or exclusive they would like the game to be.

However, your subsequent dismissal of players who can't cope with the steep learning curve of the game (really? it's one of the most intuitive games I've ever played; anyone who plays D&D 4E, Magic & Chess will pick it up easily) tells me you based lack of appeal due to a perception of complexity. It seems you misunderstand my reasons why I believe ToL is a turn-off for potential new recruits.

ToL is not complex. Playing ToL moderately well is relatively straight-forward. I am not taking anything away from the Origins winner who beat skilled opponents with different aggro builds; that win undoubtedly took great skill (but also the ability to spot a gap in the meta). But any newcomer can take the 1 Core set's 4 temples, 2 knights, 2 archers, 2 mage wings, 2 hawkeye, 1 bow, 2 poison gas, 1 orb, 1 obelisk and make a simple ranged fortress based on a NC ToL that hits any square, mana denial vs. corner swarm (orb, obelisk) etc. Sacred ground and Mokhtari further boost a stationary ranged fortress strategy. I am sure Warlord goodies in the expansion improve this. It is not a complex idea to build your fortress empire. It is in fact common for new players to turtle like that. Like Occam's Razor, the simplicity of ToL is what makes it so good: the simpler the strategy, the less prone to error during execution.

A complex strategy would be mana denial; winning by Force Hold on a mage who spent all 5 Dispels (on Essence Drains and Pacifies on his creatures) while Wand of Drain Power hits him each Early QC at range 2 (Mana Siphon in play), watching him slowly die to Pestilence while you wear Regrowth Belt, achieving the satisfying semi-hard lock playing almost creatureless mana denial, that is a cerebral complex strategy. But ToL? No, it's so obvious: "I've got a laser with X dice + daze/stun and I'm gonna guard it with the best guards whilst hitting you". Oh, what a subtle strategy!

You obviously misunderstood why I think ToL puts off new players hence is bad for the game unless errata'd to Epic. Notice that I did not ask for a banning or nerf its power. I only ask for it to be turned Epic. And the reason is simply this: by allowing multiple copies, you are telling new players: "this is a game like Legacy Magic where you can simply spend more money to get 4 copies of ToL and 6 copies of HoB for an over-powered spell book, where your win rate is influenced by your spend." Sending new players that message, when they have probably been burnt bad by the Magic bug (and probably subscribe to LCGs like Netrunner) is a turn-off for those players. That is one reason why they should turn ToL Epic: a message to potential new players that this is a not a game where max. copies is the key.

The Core set is amazingly generous. As someone with 3 copies of Netrunner Core set and 3 copies of Game of Thrones Core, I was delighted that there were so few cards where I wanted more copies. Probably 2 Core is sufficient to create 4 very nice balanced spell books.

So it's a shame they have 2 obvious cards (ToL and HoB) where any idiot will say: "oh wish I had max, of these". And the main problem is ToL as the vanguard attack card (along with multiple HoB pumped Priestess with Asrya Staff & Ring). I can live with 6 HoB, they can each be culled in 1 round. Having to kill 4 copies of knights-guarded ToL would be too much. It is a bad sign when I feel forced to include Samandriel in my non-warlock spell books.

So the first reason ToL should be Epic is because currently it is turning the game into a wallet-spending exercise, a turn-off for many potential new players. This may be deliberate by Arcane Wonders (I very much doubt it, they seem to be a very nice independent) but if so, it would be short-sighted: more players is better than fewer players spending more on average. Simple marketing principles: higher penetration of a market is better than higher average purchase when total spend is equal in both cases. Because initial conversion is all that matters: repeat purchase is easy once they are hooked.

My second reason why I believe ToL should be made Epic is simple: keeping it at multiple copies promotes a very dull attrition strategy.

Initially, I was taken aback by a lack of "counter spell" denial control. Yes, you can force the opponent to Decoy you to trigger your Nullify before he Dispels/Dissolves. While Unavoidable attacks waste Block or Reverse Attack. Soon, you will have to Decoy the Nullify then Dispel an "Armour Protection" enchantment before you can Dissolve his equipment. But these "onion peel" layers of protection only provides delay to the inevitable. There is no hard counter in Mage Wars, just delay like Jinx. I concluded they did this because denial control is dull. They want to empower players, not dis-empower them. They want Regrowth to be the counter to Ghoul Rot, saving precious Dispels for when you have no other counter. It's similar to Arabian Nights where duelling mages transform into beasts superior to the opponent's beast form, creating a circle when mouse beats elephant. In Arabian Nights mage duels, there is no counter spells, just adaption to have the advantage over the opponent who will then counter-adapt etc. It's a very dynamic changing rock-paper-scissors duel because any direct counter spell would be so... dull.

That is what 4 ToL and 6 HoB attrition strategy is: it's a dull, dull, dull strategy where opponent must overspend heavity to remove each guarded ToL. It is not the cerebral puzzle that is mana denial, which is an "acquired taste" experience I would not foist on new players (or dare to use against the best players). It is just "spamming temples and knights". Wow, what subtlety.  The designers (wisely) removed hard counter denial control from the game on grounds that it is dull to be constantly frustrated, I am surprised the same enlightened designers have promoted the dullest of dull strategies: temples attrition win.

The solution is simple: MAKE TEMPLE OF LIGHT EPIC. This does not reduce the power of Temple of Light, just its persistence. Imagine if current Epic conjurations were Unique instead! But thankfully there is only 1 Epic Obelisk or Orb so the Wizard better guard it with a Hydra. A wizard can't solely focus on his conjurations when they are Epic. The same should apply for ToL. It is a strong play (with correct support) but once removed, that should be it. Because otherwise you are promoting dull dull attrition where the >9 mana cost of removing ToL makes it an almost inevitable dull ground out win for the Priestess with powers to support this.

I also don't buy into the "I can't give you specific counter strategies" argument. Half the battle is won by a wise choice of spells in your book. You need cards for contingency occasions (Purify vs. Gorgon). I have given some very obvious counters that I use. Yes, you need to know the board situation. A Swarm is obviously best but a wise Priestess will have counters for this with Orb & Obelisk. If going Few Big, you need Cobra Reflexes, maybe Mongoose to bypass those Knight Guards. These are just generic obvious counters. Whatever spell book you build, you must address the question: what do I do when facing a Priestess (who all have ToL and HoB support as must haves, whether fortress or aggro melee)? You need to plan for ToL with specific counter strategies before you even sit down for a game. So obviously your card choices are specific strategies that can be divulged.

There is no harm done to the game in making ToL Epic, only benefits by removing the stink of "wallet wins" that put off potential fresh blood and long drawn-out attrition games that deplete enjoyment. Give a melee Priestess the aggro HoB-pumped build, backed by an Epic ToL. That is enough power. But please don't encourage her to bore you to attrition death with max copies of those 2 temples. That would be truly evil.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 05:34:35 PM by DeckBuilder »
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Tacullu64

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Re: I feel the temple is overpowered
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2013, 04:22:57 PM »
@ deckbuilder

No offense was given or taken. I wouldn't visit Internet forums if I was that easily offended.

You are correct in that I misinterpreted your concerns about ToL and new players. My apologies.

I was not dismissing players who couldn't cope with the steep learning curve. My intention was to illustrate Mage Wars requires many more tactical decisions than many other card based games and that there isn't a DoJ style of card to save the day. You might be required to make more decisions in a single turn in the middle of a game of MW than you do in an entire game of MtG. If your opponent builds an advantage in the first 4 turns of the game it might be wise to consider a 3 or 4 turn counter strategy instead of a one turn silver bullet.

You are correct that the rules of the game are fairly intuitive, but the gameplay and interaction between players can get pretty complex. It wasn't my intent to indicate playing the ToL strategy was difficult, but that countering it can be for some builds and strategies, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. I was also trying to point out that different mages/builds could (should?) employ different methods against the ToL builds depending on their individual strengths.

I must confess I like attrition builds. They are not boring to me as long as there is enough interaction between the players. I understand that some people don't like that style of play, but some do.

A simpler solution than making temple of light epic to avoid wallet wins would be to put 3 copies in a future expansion.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 07:23:31 PM by Tacullu64 »

werner

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Re: I feel the temple is overpowered
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2013, 07:17:54 AM »
Laser-Turtle is still a turtle.

Just turbo in and drop something big; supported by any of the following: Walls (while you deal with BimShalla); Block Enchant (while you deal with BimShalla); Force Hammer (may 1-shot BimShalla); Wand of Healing (removes conditions). Long story short: Kill the BimShalla(s) ASAP!

If you kill all 6 BimShalla, leaving a piddly little TOL to "tickle stun" you and your big... their deck has now overpaid in buildpoints for any extra TOL they cannot possible cast.

you can urinate on it after you murder their mage. Port-a-potty of Light.

Not Overpowered.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 07:26:24 AM by werner »