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Author Topic: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(  (Read 28177 times)

Alexandros

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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2014, 07:04:31 PM »
Hello! I found the video mostly boring, only her shirt was for an official promo questionable. What I found far more bothering is the ongoing depiction of women in the game. I mean if the priestess had been a priestess of Aphrodite, it would be okay. But as a fighting mage the picture is ridicules. It is not hard to have a sexy woman in armor, but no, nightgown it is! And don't get me started on the druid.. It is quite sad but since they seem not to be willing to change their juvenile pictures, I won't buy any of the expansions.

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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2014, 09:11:57 PM »

Hello! I found the video mostly boring, only her shirt was for an official promo questionable. What I found far more bothering is the ongoing depiction of women in the game. I mean if the priestess had been a priestess of Aphrodite, it would be okay. But as a fighting mage the picture is ridicules. It is not hard to have a sexy woman in armor, but no, nightgown it is! And don't get me started on the druid.. It is quite sad but since they seem not to be willing to change their juvenile pictures, I won't buy any of the expansions.


Even though they're really really fun? If you don't like the mage art cards that come with the game just make your own substitute. You could use a spare penny to represent your mage. As long as you have the actual ability card it doesn't really matter.
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Boocheck

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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2014, 12:37:49 AM »
I must agree, that Druid is not correct. Historically ane thematicaly. She should be completly naked, if she represents the nature. What is she thinking! She is a druid not some popstar from Whychwood!

And also, what disturbs me more, is animal nudity. If you look closly on WolfSpider, he is not wearing any trousers. I can see his whole and unshaven legs!!! Ankels, knees everything!!! I will not play him!

You can change her representative card any day. This is something similar to an event, when whole lake or water reservoiar was drained because someone see a guy pissing in it. Thank god, that animals didnt do that...

seriously... dont be over serious on this. I cannot imagine what kind of arguments will be shot when ppl will se a barbarian mage male version...

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klaymen

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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2014, 01:38:40 AM »
Boocheck, nude animals don't matter. The human nudity is offensive!!1 Someone think of the children!!1!ELEVENTYONEONE!

Boocheck

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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2014, 03:24:24 AM »
Human nudity is not offensive. Using sex for sales could be. Mage Wars are 12+ and i met ppl on the streets that are more naked than mages in the game.

If you check all mages and their art, every one of them had a something covering their crotch. Priestess is just in her summer outfit and in westlock, we all know, summers are pretty intensive.

Every person on this forum has a high intelect (pls, dont point me out as an exception ;) ), different cultural background, there is also possible language barrier and also different approach to live. We will not solve this issue here nor came up with conclusion.

If my sarcasm create more grumpy faces then smiles, i failed and then please allow me to post here an alternative art for druid and priestess for those, who sees current art as offensive. :)

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ringkichard

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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2014, 12:55:35 PM »
I feel like we've had this part of the discussion before, but I'll say it again. There are many ways to conform women's costume to male society. Some men want their women to look like virgins, some men want their women to look like whores. Both are archetypical roles that women are cast as, and independent of who they are as people.

Both the Burqua and the Odalisque are representations of women that cater to a male sensibility. They are not opposites in this discussion.

Oh, and the barechested barbarian who looks like Conan? A male power fantasy, just like the others. Women's fantasy men tend to be Colin Firth (as Mark or Fitzwilliam Darcy), Christian Grey, Justin Bieber, or Edward Cullen.
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sIKE

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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2014, 01:47:01 PM »
Oh, and the barechested barbarian who looks like Conan? A male power fantasy, just like the others. Women's fantasy men tend to be Colin Firth (as Mark or Fitzwilliam Darcy), Christian Grey, Justin Bieber, or Edward Cullen.
Fabio, The Rock, Elvis Pressley (yes to this day), any successful Band member (think Mick Jagger), any members of a boy band, and last but not least.....Rico Suave.
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ringkichard

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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2014, 01:54:36 PM »
The Rock? Maybe it's the eyebrow.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2014, 03:11:53 PM »
The topic of sexism has come up on this forum countless times, and each time there are a lot of people getting really heated and often disrespectful. I suspect that as this game gets more popular, and the young foolish and sexist demographic that seems to dominate geek culture fill into this community, these conversations will just get longer, less pleasant and less reasonable. I think those of us who are here this early in the game's existence should realize that we are representing the beginning of mage wars history, and most if not all of us could very well be veteran mage warriors by the time this game gets really popular.
I understand that people have very strong opinions of sexism in mage wars and what to do about it if anything, opinions that they are rather attached to, but if people are too attached to their opinions on this matter to calmly discuss and consider the merits and/or shortcomings of both their own and others' opinions, then discussing those opinions won't accomplish anything. So let's all try to think through what were saying before we say it, instead of just reacting emotionally. This conversation has mostly gone okay so far, but I just want to give a heads up in case it gets worse.
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I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

Shad0w

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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2014, 08:31:40 PM »
If this does get to that point I will lock this thread and ban it as a topic for discussion.

 >:(
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ringkichard

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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2014, 10:08:27 PM »
I am very confused by these last two posts. Could I have some specificity please? Are there posts that have been deleted?

Every comment I've seen in this thread has been respectfully discussing the issues and not other forum members. There has been nothing accusatory, personally defaming, or otherwise contrary to the rules. To my mind, the most objectionable thing in this thread is that Thor ad, and that's an official AW product.

Lets not exert a chilling effect on the conversation because of what someone might do so long as no one has done it.
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Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2014, 12:18:21 AM »
I am very confused by these last two posts. Could I have some specificity please? Are there posts that have been deleted?

Every comment I've seen in this thread has been respectfully discussing the issues and not other forum members. There has been nothing accusatory, personally defaming, or otherwise contrary to the rules. To my mind, the most objectionable thing in this thread is that Thor ad, and that's an official AW product.

Lets not exert a chilling effect on the conversation because of what someone might do so long as no one has done it.


There have been a LOT of threads on this forum over this topic which very often devolved into mudslinging. Of course they've been deleted; they make our community look completely horrible, and weren't accomplishing much of anything. Some of them started as civil debates, but they would go downhill past heated argument and spiral out of control when it passed the border of the land of love and war.

I won't name names, but as an example there was a particular person who used to go on this forum, and his somewhat chauvinistic idea of chivalry was expressed through some opinions that made a lot of people very angry. They reacted to what he was saying as if he was intentionally trying to be obnoxious just by the mere expression of his prejudicial opinions, and they kept snapping at him and criticizing him and being confrontational with him about it. He stayed calm for a while, until it got to him and he snapped and started verbally attacking people. Looking back, I regret that I did not realize what was really happening at the time and be more supportive of him instead of obliviously helping people gang up on him.

At the time I thought he was just a well intentioned but really judgmental and even obnoxious person who didn't know how to keep his hurtful comments to himself. Now I realize that he was merely expressing inaccurate opinions about other people that he did not realize or believe were hurtful because he didn't consider them to be prejudicial, then people got deeply critical of him for having those opinions, and they kept poking him with a metaphorical stick until he popped. When he popped and started verbally attacking people, I wrongly judged him as "showing his true colors" when in reality he was probably just feeling attacked and distressed, and decided to lash out against his better judgment. A good and promising player was driven away from the game by the conflict over this issue. This actually happened. It's another thing for people to think about before they open their mouths to say something nasty about another person who disagrees with them while they are talking to that person, because of said disagreement.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 12:27:39 AM by Imaginator »
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I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

joechip90

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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2014, 06:36:31 AM »
You're right imaginator that these sort of topics can rapidly spiral into a bad area but, as ringkichard has said, actually I've found this current thread to be a very reasonable discussion of the topic and I for one would like to see more thoughtful discussion on this topic (provided it stays civil that is).

To get back on topic: from reading the forum responses here it seems that we as community are a bit divided on this Toni Darling campaign.  If I can be as bold to make some summaries of the arguments provided here it seems that people fall roughly into two 'camps' on this issue:

1) People who don't mind the campaign seem to be citing arguments such as 'she is appropriately dressed within the context of cosplay community', 'she has a right to wear what she likes: who are we to say what is appropriate', 'it isn't really for existing fans anyway: it is to promote the game to the cosplay community', 'she isn't terribly revealingly dressed: I've seen more flesh in other situations' and 'Arcane Wonders are simply employing successful marketing strategies to promote their product'.
2) People who dislike the campaign seem to be citing arguments such as 'using images of women in revealing attire to promote a board game is not really appropriate', 'campaign smacks of a sex-sells style of promotion that should really be left in the past', 'it's unlikely that the cosplayers are really going to buy the product anyway so the campaign seems rather pointless', and 'Toni Darling doesn't appear to look that interested in the game'

I have respect for all of these arguments and can appreciate the arguments made from both 'sides'.  I must admit to falling more into the second group on this issue.

However, regardless of the validity of the arguments presented on either side of the debate, it is definitely clear that this advertising campaign, when taken collectively with complaints from some about the depictions of female characters in the card art, has led to Arcane Wonders having to defend against accusations of sexism (rightly or wrongly).  This topic keeps coming up in both Arcane Wonders own forums (>>here<< and >>here<<) and on Board Game Geek (>>here<< and >>here<<) as well as being on many other threads that have since been deleted.  I do therefore believe this is a real issue that needs to be addressed.

My feeling is that if they tried to tone down their images on their female character card art (more like [mwcard=FWC13]Selesius, the East Wind[/mwcard] and less like [mwcard=MW1C39]Valshalla, Lightning Angel[/mwcard]) then the people from group 1 would still buy the product (as I doubt group 1 only buys Mage Wars for the sexy card art) and you wouldn't risk alienating the buyers in group 2.  Even if you do believe all of this talk of sexism is nonsense, if Arcane Wonders adopted this strategy you'd benefit from having a larger player base and not have to endure endless discussions on sexism in the forums.  I would find it easier to sell the game to my gaming group (some of which have definitely been put-off by the card art).  >>Here<< is a very good blog post about the marketing benefits of not trying to use images of women in chainmail bikinis to sell your fantasy product

I also don't believe that the Toni Darling campaign will bring in more cosplayers to the community than potential players it will alienate but I guess time will tell on that one and I don't have Arcane Wonder's sales figures to hand to test that theory.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 12:34:19 PM by joechip90 »
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zorro

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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2014, 09:45:20 AM »
Really nicely written Joe, i think i agree with it.

I personally not offended by nudity. I think gorgon archer art is great, and very appropiate. I think the art of the johktari may be appropiate for a jungle warrior. But i don´t buy the "bikini chainmail" thing as it appear on the angels, or Priestess, Druid...

Is not a problem of nuddity per-se. The Forcemaster does not show much, but i dont find logic in combining deep V-neckline with a dark losse cloack. I would accept a more nude Druid - it she would be more barkskined, and less as if it where a playmate (sorry, english not my first languaje - i expect is clear what i mean). For me is more about the general tone of the game (adult, serious, a bit dark), that get a bit dilluted when females are depicted with a different tone than the males. Look at the poses of the mages... every male has feet properly stand on the ground, separated, but most of the females seem to being posing, not getting ready to fight.

On a side note, i really appreciate having mages from both genders (maybe more female creatures soon?  ;)), and ages (i really like the art of the female wizard...)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 09:48:48 AM by zorro »
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Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2014, 10:18:16 AM »

Really nicely written Joe, i think i agree with it.

I personally not offended by nudity. I think gorgon archer art is great, and very appropiate. I think the art of the johktari may be appropiate for a jungle warrior. But i don´t buy the "bikini chainmail" thing as it appear on the angels, or Priestess, Druid...

Is not a problem of nuddity per-se. The Forcemaster does not show much, but i dont find logic in combining deep V-neckline with a dark losse cloack. I would accept a more nude Druid - it she would be more barkskined, and less as if it where a playmate (sorry, english not my first languaje - i expect is clear what i mean). For me is more about the general tone of the game (adult, serious, a bit dark), that get a bit dilluted when females are depicted with a different tone than the males. Look at the poses of the mages... every male has feet properly stand on the ground, separated, but most of the females seem to being posing, not getting ready to fight.

On a side note, i really appreciate having mages from both genders (maybe more female creatures soon?  ;)), and ages (i really like the art of the female wizard...)

Yeah. The non-fighting poses are pretty annoying:

The priestess (looks like she's about to dance provocatively)
The priest (looks like he's about to preach rather than fight)
The Druid (just standing there smiling like the Mona Lisa, although this is somewhat believable if she barely leaves her corner all game while her enemies fail to attack her.)
The adramelech warlock (lash left down at her side, looking up--as if Infernia were in THAT direction.)

Still, they're only an annoyance.
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I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.