Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Alex on January 20, 2017, 02:26:02 AM
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(I'll try to keep this this forum updated from your feedback and openings)
Bloodcrag Minotaur Rush
For prerequisite Bloodwave Warlord starts:
T1 (19): Move, [mwcard=FWQ08]Ring of Command[/mwcard]-3, [mwcard=FWQ05]Helm of Command[/mwcard] with [mwcard=MW1I04]Charge[/mwcard]-4
T2 (21): [mwcard=FWJ04]Garrison Post[/mwcard]-4, [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC03]Bloodcrag Minotaur[/mwcard] -15
T3 (11): [mwcard=MW1I04]Charge[/mwcard]-3, [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC03]Bloodcrag Minotaur[/mwcard] assaults, Overextend, [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC03]Bloodcrag Minotaur[/mwcard] assaults
T4 (17): ...
City Builder Delay
T1 (19):Move, [mwcard=MWSTX2FFJ05]Construction Yard[/mwcard]-7, [mwcard=FWJ03]Barracks[/mwcard]-12
T2 (09): [mwcard=MWSTX2FFW01]Wall of Earth[/mwcard]-5, Move, [mwcard=MWSTX2FFW01]Wall of Earth[/mwcard]-5
T3 (09):
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(I'll try to keep this this forum updated from your feedback and openings)
Bloodcrag Minotaur Rush
For prerequisite Bloodwave Warlord starts:
T1 (19): Move, [mwcard=FWQ08]Ring of Command[/mwcard]-3, [mwcard=FWQ05]Helm of Command[/mwcard] with [mwcard=MW1I04]Charge[/mwcard]-4
T2 (21): [mwcard=FWJ04]Garrison Post[/mwcard]-4, [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC03]Bloodcrag Minotaur[/mwcard] -15
T3 (11): [mwcard=MW1I04]Charge[/mwcard]-3, [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC03]Bloodcrag Minotaur[/mwcard] assaults, Overextend, [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC03]Bloodcrag Minotaur[/mwcard] assaults
T4 (17): ...
Zone Law True
C4 C3 C2 C1
B4 B3 B2 B1
A4 A3 A2 A1
I do have some observations and some questions.
By T2 you are in B1. I assume you cast Garrison Post in B2. So this is the starting point for [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC03]Bloodcrag Minotaur[/mwcard]. As you no longer move your mintotaur will soon be out of range of your spells, but I guess that is assumed in your planning. However once this trick has popped what now? You are sat with a stunned creature that if you continue to over extend will only act every other turn. Would you not be better with [mwcard=MW1I02]Battle Fury[/mwcard] instead?
I agree in this engine that fast charge is more efficient than straight battle fury mana wise in the long run. You are saving 0.2 mana per dice, however I disagree of Overextend > Battle Fury, unless you also have wand of healing out. However how do you mitigate hindering? Druid turns this off with clever vine token placement, for example.
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Charge + overextend allows the minotaur to attack twice with 7 dice. Assuming there are 2 targets it can attack, while battle fury + charge will give 7+4 dice.
Nevertheless, I think cant of rage + overextend on the second turn of the chant (without healing) is probably more efficient anyway. That way you can attack with 2x 8 dice and your target can be the same creature since it can move out&in the same zone since it's not hindered.
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(I'll try to keep this this forum updated from your feedback and openings)
Bloodcrag Minotaur Rush
For prerequisite Bloodwave Warlord starts:
T1 (19): Move, [mwcard=FWQ08]Ring of Command[/mwcard]-3, [mwcard=FWQ05]Helm of Command[/mwcard] with [mwcard=MW1I04]Charge[/mwcard]-4
T2 (21): [mwcard=FWJ04]Garrison Post[/mwcard]-4, [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC03]Bloodcrag Minotaur[/mwcard] -15
T3 (11): [mwcard=MW1I04]Charge[/mwcard]-3, [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC03]Bloodcrag Minotaur[/mwcard] assaults, Overextend, [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC03]Bloodcrag Minotaur[/mwcard] assaults
T4 (17): ...
Zone Law True
C4 C3 C2 C1
B4 B3 B2 B1
A4 A3 A2 A1
I do have some observations and some questions.
By T2 you are in B1. I assume you cast Garrison Post in B2. So this is the starting point for [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC03]Bloodcrag Minotaur[/mwcard]. As you no longer move your mintotaur will soon be out of range of your spells, but I guess that is assumed in your planning. However once this trick has popped what now? You are sat with a stunned creature that if you continue to over extend will only act every other turn. Would you not be better with [mwcard=MW1I02]Battle Fury[/mwcard] instead?
I agree in this engine that fast charge is more efficient than straight battle fury mana wise in the long run. You are saving 0.2 mana per dice, however I disagree of Overextend > Battle Fury, unless you also have wand of healing out. However how do you mitigate hindering? Druid turns this off with clever vine token placement, for example.
I think turn 3 I would plan (Lesser?) Teleport and Tanglevine, rather than Overextend. Depending on opponent's play, [mwcard=MW1I04]Charge[/mwcard] the Minotaur if possible, but with a plan to make sure he gets to his target.
Then next round, do you bring in another Minotaur? Or do you put Mongoose Agility on the first Minotaur (so he can get a Charge +X bonus every round via [mwcard=MW1I04]Charge[/mwcard]/Fast) and continue to support him? Maybe gear up and join the Minotaur in melee combat?
Note that if the enemy mage is alone and Tanglevine'd, he is Restrained and thus doesn't Hinder, so Mongoose Agility might not need to be revealed.
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So here's an opening I've tried and had mild success with. The reason I've lost games with this opening is more because of the change in playstyle (and me making misplays later) than because of the mage/opening.
T1: General Signet + Orc Butcher
T2: Mana Flower + Orc Butcher
T3: Mana Flower + Orc Butcher
T4: Leather something + Orc Butcher
At this point, you've got a pretty good Waaugh going and can adjust as necessary. I tend to keep casting a craeture or two, but i've also used the next turns to armor up and wade in. It depends on what the enemy gives you, honestly, but it's actually not a bad opening. Still exploring how to work this, but it's at least been entertaining
Side note: I hate the Rax/Post economy. In general, the racks sets you too far back to really recover in my opinion
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Hmm. I bet the issue with barracks is similar to the issue with pentagram. Namely that you don't want to cast it immediately at the start of the game. If you cast two garrison posts first that means that the moment you cast the barracks it will have 3 channeling and it will be able to summon creatures almost anywhere in the arena you need it to if you place it right. Warlord has battle skill just like arraxian crown warlock. I bet if you want a barracks opening you could try something like....
If you're playing against a rush:
R1: move up, garrison post in NC and armory in upper corner
R2: brace yourself and barracks in your starting corner
R3 (example): deploy a soldier, cast overextend or rouse on it. Have the soldier attack enemy Mage or enemy guard, or have it guard for you. Then use your basic melee.
If you're playing against a turtle:
R1: move left, cast garrison post in NC and armory in starting corner
R2: cast barracks to the left, move to NC and brace yourself
R3 (example): deploy a soldier. Then you can choose 2 of the following: buff the soldier with an enchantment, or cast harshforge plate, or cast a zone enchantment, or cast the signet ring, or summon another creature.
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Hmm. I bet the issue with barracks is similar to the issue with pentagram. Namely that you don't want to cast it immediately at the start of the game. If you cast two garrison posts first that means that the moment you cast the barracks it will have 3 channeling and it will be able to summon creatures almost anywhere in the arena you need it to if you place it right. Warlord has battle skill just like arraxian crown warlock. I bet if you want a barracks opening you could try something like....
If you're playing against a rush:
R1: move up, garrison post in NC and armory in upper corner
R2: brace yourself and barracks in your starting corner
R3: deploy a soldier
If you're playing against a turtle:
R1: move left, cast garrison post in NC and armory in starting corner
R2: cast barracks to the left, move to NC and brace yourself
R3: deploy a soldier
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This will net you -2 mana vs starting with Barracks + Garrison Post on turn 1.
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Hmm. I bet the issue with barracks is similar to the issue with pentagram. Namely that you don't want to cast it immediately at the start of the game. If you cast two garrison posts first that means that the moment you cast the barracks it will have 3 channeling and it will be able to summon creatures almost anywhere in the arena you need it to if you place it right. Warlord has battle skill just like arraxian crown warlock. I bet if you want a barracks opening you could try something like....
If you're playing against a rush:
R1: move up, garrison post in NC and armory in upper corner
R2: brace yourself and barracks in your starting corner
R3: deploy a soldier
If you're playing against a turtle:
R1: move left, cast garrison post in NC and armory in starting corner
R2: cast barracks to the left, move to NC and brace yourself
R3: deploy a soldier
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This will net you -2 mana vs starting with Barracks + Garrison Post on turn 1.
Hmm. Yeah I see what you mean. Lair is 15 mana cost and has 2 channeling.
Barracks + garrison post is 16 mana and also 2 channeling, with the added benefit of being able to summon a creature farther away. However, if you cast barracks in your corner zone then you are completely reliant on the garrison posts for summoning creatures closer to the enemy, and that basically means it's 1 more mana than beastmaster's lair but you're not getting any advantage out of it. Maybe instead you should open like...
R1: general signet ring move left and barracks in NC.
R2: deploy a goblin slinger, move left and cast garrison post and quickcast brace yourself
Then again anyone with double fireball could take it out fast if you do that...
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Most efficient manawise is
T1 barracks (corner) + construction yard (other corner) gaining you +3 mana each turn
T2 garrison post (nc) + ring. Now you are channeling 13+1 discount
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Most efficient manawise is
T1 barracks (corner) + construction yard (other corner) gaining you +3 mana each turn
T2 garrison post (nc) + ring. Now you are channeling 13+1 discount
This is my primary Bloodwave Warlord opponent's opening. The only "problem" going forward is that the Construction Yard's mana is restricted to corporeal War conjurations and Earth walls... so if you don't end up casting many more of those types of spells (or at least after letting mana build up on the yard), then you wasted mana on turn 1 vs. casting a cheaper outpost (or a Mana Flower) that you might get more use out of. And the Yard itself isn't a spawnpoint/familiar, so it doesn't help with action economy (although it works with Goblin Builder...).
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Most efficient manawise is
T1 barracks (corner) + construction yard (other corner) gaining you +3 mana each turn
T2 garrison post (nc) + ring. Now you are channeling 13+1 discount
This is my primary Bloodwave Warlord opponent's opening. The only "problem" going forward is that the Construction Yard's mana is restricted to corporeal War conjurations and Earth walls... so if you don't end up casting many more of those types of spells (or at least after letting mana build up on the yard), then you wasted mana on turn 1 vs. casting a cheaper outpost (or a Mana Flower) that you might get more use out of. And the Yard itself isn't a spawnpoint/familiar, so it doesn't help with action economy (although it works with Goblin Builder...).
You're right that this is only working if you plan to go conjuration heavy. If you are willing to do that there is a ton of good war conjurations out there.
If you plan tanking it's for sure not a good start :)
About the opening post:
Playing mana flower, buddy, rhino hide, bear strength is like playing a beastmaster in a warlord costume. Since those spells are mostly nature it is very inefficient in spellbookpoints, thus will end up in a less versatile book because of lack of cards.
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Nevertheless, I think cant of rage + overextend on the second turn of the chant (without healing) is probably more efficient anyway. That way you can attack with 2x 8 dice and your target can be the same creature since it can move out&in the same zone since it's not hindered.
I prefer [mwcard=MW1I04]Charge[/mwcard] because it is a little bit more flexible.
Most efficient manawise is
T1 barracks (corner) + construction yard (other corner) gaining you +3 mana each turn
T2 garrison post (nc) + ring. Now you are channeling 13+1 discount
Sure but my opponents cast fireballs on the barracks. so i need earthwalls for defense.
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Nevertheless, I think cant of rage + overextend on the second turn of the chant (without healing) is probably more efficient anyway. That way you can attack with 2x 8 dice and your target can be the same creature since it can move out&in the same zone since it's not hindered.
I prefer [mwcard=MW1I04]Charge[/mwcard] because it is a little bit more flexible.
Most efficient manawise is
T1 barracks (corner) + construction yard (other corner) gaining you +3 mana each turn
T2 garrison post (nc) + ring. Now you are channeling 13+1 discount
Sure but my opponents cast fireballs on the barracks. so i need earthwalls for defense.
Construction yard supports earth walls, so you are playing what I propose. sure you can have a different T2 with walls of you need to
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Playing mana flower, buddy, rhino hide, bear strength is like playing a beastmaster in a warlord costume. Since those spells are mostly nature it is very inefficient in spellbookpoints, thus will end up in a less versatile book because of lack of cards.
I am sorry I disagree with everything quoted. By this argument then every arcane use is a wizard, every nature use is a Beastmaster, and that is fundamentally wrong. Otherwise only sirens dissolve and wizards dispel. All that happens is that these cards become recosted to a converted level cost and must be evaluated as that level. Is teleport worth 6 SBP each, well one is as no other spell replicates its exact effect, however a second one now sits in 121-130 slots instead of the 80-120 slots. If a warlord has fulfilled 2 battle plans and a toolbox with I have 6 SBP spare then sure I shall evaluate whether a second teleport is more justified than more removal or more equipment. This is where I get a lot of enjoyment by taking hours to tune in and out different cards. This is a game of quiet reflection as much as it is a duelling game against opponents.
The only time I would agree with this is a book where you have overbalanced in SBP. It is why I like OCTGN so much. I use the notes pane to note down a current mages SBP then swap out the Mage card and stat card for something else. I note that down and in event of a a lower SBP I re-evaluate my plan to see if this mage is also suited for the task, if not better. I have evolved Wizards to Forcemasters and Necromancers to Warlords this way before.
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Playing mana flower, buddy, rhino hide, bear strength is like playing a beastmaster in a warlord costume. Since those spells are mostly nature it is very inefficient in spellbookpoints, thus will end up in a less versatile book because of lack of cards.
I am sorry I disagree with everything quoted. By this argument then every arcane use is a wizard, every nature use is a Beastmaster, and that is fundamentally wrong. Otherwise only sirens dissolve and wizards dispel. All that happens is that these cards become recosted to a converted level cost and must be evaluated as that level. Is teleport worth 6 SBP each, well one is as no other spell replicates its exact effect, however a second one now sits in 121-130 slots instead of the 80-120 slots. If a warlord has fulfilled 2 battle plans and a toolbox with I have 6 SBP spare then sure I shall evaluate whether a second teleport is more justified than more removal or more equipment. This is where I get a lot of enjoyment by taking hours to tune in and out different cards. This is a game of quiet reflection as much as it is a duelling game against opponents.
The only time I would agree with this is a book where you have overbalanced in SBP. It is why I like OCTGN so much. I use the notes pane to note down a current mages SBP then swap out the Mage card and stat card for something else. I note that down and in event of a a lower SBP I re-evaluate my plan to see if this mage is also suited for the task, if not better. I have evolved Wizards to Forcemasters and Necromancers to Warlords this way before.
I trink we don't disagree. If a warlord plays many nature spells to support a war-buddy, then the point will come when your way of testing will propose tgis book to switch to a beastmaster or druid.
Sure there will always be cards from different schools in a book and they will be in there with recosted higher sbp. That makes me also calculating through counts og dispels, teleports and other staples as well. Its the big thing when planning a forcemaster buddy.
But what I am saying is, that a bear strength might not be the best buff in all schools. For dark there are other bloodthirsty versions, and for war there are buffing commands. Same with armor and regenerate.
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Bloodthirsty only works on living creatures. Bear strength works on all, so I lean more towards bear strength. I know this is just one example, but it is a very good one. Id would rather pay the the extra SBP and just have 1 card than have 2 cards to cover both matchups.
Also Warlords want Channelling buffs and currently you either have arcane or nature spells. When arcane costs 3 points for mana crystal, I will pay 2 points for the nature version. Outposts are a lot harder to place and easier to disrupt. Id rather place two mana flowers in 2 different zones and hard cast. I have played this version and found it just as viable.
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Bear strength also requires living
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I get what you meant now! Oops
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I've played the meditation amulet 2 sbp / yard build and it works out pretty nice for me.
I honestly tend to find myself running out of space for zone exclusive conjurations.
An running 3 spawn points takes some getting used to. CY / Forge / Barraks
Where I find a flaw in this build is the lack of your armory which in creature heavy play is VITAL.
2 armor / 1 piece orc butcher are LEGIT. :D
3 armor / 5 melee / 1 piece VET butchers from what most opponents say need to die sooner rather than later!
As a warlord you can run out of zones to put down your stuff and this is really the biggest drawback. a CY stocking up on mana is not a problem at all because you should have plenty of stuff you want to use. Armory, Wall of Earth/Stone/Iron/Pikes, Altar of Iron Guard, Balista, Hammer, Altar of Carnage.
These are not things you are casting at start of match so that 4 or 5 mana saved up really does help. You also get mana for destroying constructs equal to their level.
An honestly who is going to kill a construction yard...
I think it should also work for earth Terrains but that is another battle...
A free grunt and 1 butcher a turn is a problem for most builds. Toss in a good standard carry and you have a legit little army. I've used Panzer guards in the past because they have a dodge.
I've been thinking a Knight of Westlock might be a good invest though for that purpose.