Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spellbook Design and Construction => Topic started by: somaddict on September 28, 2013, 12:47:44 PM
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Two grizzlies out on turn three. Force pull/push and teleport bears to swing with nine dice often. Focus down spawn points immediately. It is quite a steam roller so far. How can it be made better?
Mage: Forcemaster
Hurl Boulder x 3 (Fliers, finisher)
Steelclaw Grizzly x 2
Bear Strength x 2 (On bears)
Charm x 1 (Distract)
Poisoned Blood x 1 (Disrupt panic heals, Holy Mage)
Rhino Hide x 2 (On bears)
Healing Charm x 2 (Bears or Mage)
Enchantment Transfusion x 1
Jinx x 1
Mongoose Agility x 1
Regrowth x 1 (Bear or Mage)
Mage Wand x 2 (Sleep, Fury, Teleport, Push, Minor Heal, Dissolve, Dispel, Shift Enchant)
Dragonscale Hauberk x 1
Eagleclaw Boots x 2 (Disrupt FM, Wall cheese)
Dissolve x 2
Dispel x 2
Seeking Dispel x 1
Battle Fury x 2
Purify x 1
Heal x 1
Sleep x 1 (Fliers, Gorgon Archer, Teleport away)
Force Push x 2
Teleport x 3 (Move bears, enemy mage/creatures, isolate sleepers)
Minor Heal x 2
Shift Enchantment x 1
Whirling Strike x 1 (Deal with BM and Warlord spam)
Piercing Strike x 1 (Deal with Iron Golem, Brogan, etc.)
Suppression Orb (Deal with creature spam)
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Only time right now for a quick look, but I'd consider replacing Suppression Orb with Mordoc's Obelisk, for the combo with Mind Control. What's been giving it trouble?
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Nice list, sir! I feel it's not really my place to comment as you are more experienced playing this book. However you have invited feedback.
My first question is why Forcemaster? When Earth Wizard or a Beastmaster could buy this book far cheaper with points to spare for other toys. Force Pull is cheap but less flexible than a Wand with Teleport. Although I do agree it's a nice synergetic innate ability to lure victims back into the Grizzly den for some Full-on Action.
I sense your reason is purely stylistic (like your refusal to stoop to "wall cheese" for a mere 2 points; 2x Boots demonstrates prevalence in your meta). Let's face it, she looks far cooler than the other mages (although Jokhtari may beg to differ).
I can think of many reasons to choose Forcemaster beyond her stylishness. These generally revolve around choosing more of her spells! Maybe your book was built to flummox your opponents, expecting Blocks and Force Field? Playing unpredictably out of type certainly has its advantages. It's rather ironic you seem to like playing mind games by playing a mind mage...
In my mind, the first change is find 6 spell points to upgrade Suppression Orb and Charm (it can attack Grizzlies or conjurations, guard, hinder) with Mordok's Obelisk and Mind Control, cast late as possible then feed it to Obelisk at Upkeep before paying for Control upkeep. Obelisk helps "crowd control" anyway. Control's 8 mana to remove a buffed Grizzly at a stroke? Good game! Once you cast Obelisk (just prior to casting Control), opponent knows he has to destroy it or risk more Control removal. Not only is removing his buffed threat usually game turning, afterwards forcing him to prioritise the Obelisk is incredible tempo advantage.
The next spell you should consider is Force Hold. You want the enemy mage to stay put for Full-on Action with your cuddly Super Bears? In a world without Stumble, revealing a well timed Force Hold is your friend. Pay 3 upkeeo and force 1 of his spell choices next turn (if he hasn't run out of Dispels). Force Hold is in school hence costs the same spell points as Tanglevine, so use it. The huge advantage it has over Tanglevine is the surprise instant speed of its reveal, disrupting the mage's plans. Trickster mage.
Next, if you do go down the Beastmaster's buffs route, consider leveraging synergy like Grizzly + Bear Strength + Hand of Bim Shalla + Vampirism + Battle Fury + Retaliate (time its use vs. a buffed up melee mage). Especially if your local meta does not play Purge Magic (some wizards run 1 copy). You should at least try to find a place for 1 Hand of Bim Shalla - it became Unique for a reason...
Talking of errata, more Battle Furies are more versatile better than situational commands. You have 2 Grizzlies on the field. Once buffed up, you can Fury them both once each for 2 rounds. A second Mongoose-elusive Bear? It's about killing the enemy mage (not high value investments, often a distraction with a super-aggressively focused book like this). The rest is just vacuous style. Embrace the efficiency...
I approve of the lack of Blocks and your lack of Forcefield is daring: defence is for wusses? To make room for changes, action-intensive defensive elements can be removed. Which is better, 5 mana on a Healing Charm (3 dice once) or Regrowth (2 every upkeep) where 3 mana can be paid next turn before upkeep? Usually the latter. Even better, turn your incredible offence into healing, as detailed above. In the end, there are few books as aggressive. You dictate pace. Opponent must race or go defensive. Here, the best defence is offence, to put more pressure so that he will lose a damage race thus he must blink and play defensive. Spell points you spend as contingency for fear of losing become a self-fulfilling prophecy as you didn't spend them on spells that press the advantage. Many times, I may be losing the damage race (dice rolls) but I've worked out that in the crucial last round, I have initiative hence first action and yet another Battle Fury on my buffed Grizzly (or a double Hurl Boulder if all dead) to win by a whisker. With a book like this, you never blink. Ever.
Finally, please do not take anything I've written in a bad way. I always think answering these posts could always end up with bad feeling, just trying to be helpful and constructive, I can imagine "it is quite a steam roller". Though you mention your opponents play spawn points so it seems they have not adjusted their tempo to your faster aggression. I hope this has helped you refine your build, and good luck.
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Only time right now for a quick look, but I'd consider replacing Suppression Orb with Mordoc's Obelisk, for the combo with Mind Control. What's been giving it trouble?
Orb is Mind school vs. Obelisk's arcane so two spellbook points I am not sure that is worth it in combo with Mind Control. You can always use Mind Control to make the creature move with the Orb....
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Once u mindcontrol it u can choose not to pay the upkeep to kill it and the you dont pay for the upkeep of mindcontrol
If you move it with mind control don't you pay the cost
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Got it....
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Got it....
When you explained to me Thoughtspores casting multiple Battle Fury on Forcemaster (pumped up by multiple Hands), I felt similar! :)
It's more a question of the style you play her. I always found Spores too fragile an investment and preferred "enchantment control", using Force Hold, Forcefield, Mind Control etc to deplete limited Dispels. Obelisk-Control abuse is as second nature as Spore-Fury abuse was to you. Obviously that trick was so game imbalancing that they errata'd it. The errata to me meant I can't get 3 attacks with Bear Strength Lord of Fire or Super Grizzly. The true game-breaking reason never occurred to me as I don't play Forcemaster (detest unreliable Defence rolls). It's good to see there is far more depth to her than I gave her credit.
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Thanks for the feedback Deckbuilder. That's a lot of good input.
I do favor the Forcemaster because I have a crush on her, I'll admit it, yet the flexibility of the force pull is key here, I think. I can choose two spells every round knowing that I have force pull available as an option to deal with the unpredictable movement of the enemy mage. Force pull is also very cheap, and this book is mana intensive. That leads to another point. The upkeep spells are too expensive to maintain to keep this book aggressive. I want the opponent to move because then they aren't casting creatures, and the book is designed around dealing with the movement of the opponent. Ideally, I want them on the run and have enough mana free to cast a wand, fire off a boulder with a force pull, two boulders at once with a bear attack or two, etc. I've rolled 30 dice in a round before.
I actually didn't know about the Obelisk/Mind Control cheese. That is something to consider, but honestly I hope this gets nerfed somehow. I don't like it. I agree that another regrowth instead of heal enchants might be a good move, but I do like the unpredictability of the heals that misdirects aggro to the bears instead of my mage. The deflect is also a bonus for my mage that is frequently standing right in the middle of everything with little protection.
The biggest problem I've had so far are roll anomalies. If the opponent hits with a ton of crits on the bears early then I'm in a bad spot. I guess that's the breaks with any game though. Vampiric is probably the way to go here. I will make some adjustments and see how it goes.
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Thanks for the feedback Deckbuilder. That's a lot of good input.
I do favor the Forcemaster because I have a crush on her, I'll admit it, yet the flexibility of the force pull is key here, I think. I can choose two spells every round knowing that I have force pull available as an option to deal with the unpredictable movement of the enemy mage. Force pull is also very cheap, and this book is mana intensive.
You should really make room for a Force Ring then, it makes her innate Forcepull ability free and discounts a few other spells you have in your deck as well.
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Replace 2 hurl boulders with jet streams and surge waves. 2 jets and 2 surge is enough.
Replace 2 rhino hides with vampirism enchantments. your bears dont need more armor, they might need healing.
Enchantment transfusion? what is it for? Get more enchantments instead.
Whirling strike remive it. Get atleast 1 falcon prescision to handle defense units.
Get more Bear strengths - they will be dispelled.
Imo you dont have to worry about "creature spam" since you kill 2 low lvl creauters per turn with 2 grizzlys.
If one of your grizzlys die, then you probaly lost right there. Adding a third grizzly is too expensive, so consider adding a minor heal and a block or reverse attack. This along with vampirism enchantment should keep them up.
Another option is to add stuff like sacred ground - this works well with shift enchantment.
Force-grizzly is pretty nice currently.
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I played versus a nice gentleman called Shenful on OCTGN who used a similar build. Well, at least until my PC froze up.
Grizzly plus Galador for the ranged stun chance attack. Also a ring of force was great to fund those force pulls. He beat my own sorry attempt at a FM build, and played well. but fell fairly easily to a standard Air wizard build with Nec vamp, wizard tower and board control.
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Replace 2 hurl boulders with jet streams and surge waves. 2 jets and 2 surge is enough.
Replace 2 rhino hides with vampirism enchantments. your bears dont need more armor, they might need healing.
Enchantment transfusion? what is it for? Get more enchantments instead.
Whirling strike remive it. Get atleast 1 falcon prescision to handle defense units.
Get more Bear strengths - they will be dispelled.
Imo you dont have to worry about "creature spam" since you kill 2 low lvl creauters per turn with 2 grizzlys.
If one of your grizzlys die, then you probaly lost right there. Adding a third grizzly is too expensive, so consider adding a minor heal and a block or reverse attack. This along with vampirism enchantment should keep them up.
Another option is to add stuff like sacred ground - this works well with shift enchantment.
Force-grizzly is pretty nice currently.
The boulders are for concentrated damage. Jets are surge are nice, especially surge, but that is utility. I usually only want to cast them on a roadblock or to finish. I run four battle furies now to deal with getting around guards mostly. Losing a grizzly is real bad. I agree that rhino hides are useless, except for 1 on my mage. That helps with wall cheese, and I can get rid of boots. Two vampiric enchants are must, and almost better than bear strength to cast first.
Ultimately, the better players ignore the grizzlies and go for the throat. That is the only time I have lost other than losing a grizzly with lots of lucky crits.
I have succumbed to the obelisk/mind control combo. It deals with certain things so well.
Enchantment transfusion is for the jinx hack. You put a jinx and transfusion on a grizzly and stop something particularly game changing/ending. It's a jinx on deck.
The Galador strategy looks mean. Will try it out. That one extra mana on turn three is actually just what I've been needing to get a Hand temple out.
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I changed things up a bit. Here's two Grizzlies and a Galador at the end of turn 5, I believe...
(http://i.snag.gy/eKWzy.jpg)
The Tegu had just been stunned. I felt sympathy. I didn't have trouble making room for Galador. Turn 1 was Grizzly and Bear Strength. Turn 2 was double move and Hand. Turn 3 was Galador. Turn 4 was Force Ring and Force Pull. Turn 5 was Grizzly #2. Turn 6 was Battle Fury with revealed Bear Strength and +1 melee from Hand. Turn 7 was gg. He was a newer player, but still.
I took a bit of all the advice for the book.
(http://snag.gy/QPN7d.jpg)
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I have been running a fairly similar build, but use one grizzly, Galador and Brogan. More flexible vs various threats. Brogan reall helps vs FM.
Staying with your book, you might want a mongoose agility to avoid guards.
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I have fantasies of giving Brogan Bear Strength and Hand of Bim-Shalla and 1 shotting a Wizard's tower.
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I have fantasies of giving Brogan Bear Strength and Hand of Bim-Shalla and 1 shotting a Wizard's tower.
I have tried that but rolled poorly, as usual.
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Here's my take on somewhat of the same build, with my personal build to taste.
Forcemaster
2x Battle Fury
2x Bear Strength
1x Cheetah Speed
3x Decoy
2x Dispel
2x Dissolve
1x Dragonscale Hauberk
1x Force Crush
1x Forcefield
2x Force Hammer
2x Force Hold
2x Force Push
1x Force Ring
1x Galvitar, Force Blade
1x Gauntlets of Strength
2x Mage Wand
2x Mind Control
2x Necropian Vampiress
1x Psi-Orb
1x Purify
2x Regrowth
2x Sleep
1x Suppression Orb
2x Surging Wave
3x Teleport
42 spells, 120 spell points
The big difference here is that I have 2x Vampires over the Grizzlys. I find them to be more cost effective if you think about what you're getting. You don't need to add anything else other than Regrowth + Bear Strength and they can take care of themselves. Saves you points, 1 less armor for greater quick attack that can keep the mobile.
The rest of the list is built for a little bit more control with Magewand, 2x MCs, 2x Sleep, 2x Surging Waves, with Force Hold and Force Crush. Utility spells with Teleport, Dispel and Dissolve, while keeping 2x Force Hammers just in case I need extra dice for damage.
Lastly, the default equipment setup for the Forcemaster herself to keep her dangerous Galvitar and Gauntlets mainly, but I can save a Bear Strength/Regrowth for her as well.
Let me know what you think.
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1 less armor for greater quick attack that can keep the mobile.
Normally I would agree. I like the Vampiress better than the Grizzly for most mages. However, for the Forcemaster I would prefer the Grizzly. The reason is because you can use the Forcemaster to mobilize the Grizzly and guarantee that the bear uses his Full Attack each round, and I believe the Grizzly's Full Attack is better than the Vampiress's Quick Attack.
If your Forcemaster is in melee range as well, she can use Force Pull for free (with Force Ring equipped). Otherwise, she can use Force Push for the cost of only 2 mana and 1 spell point to position the bear. Throwing Vampirism + Bear Strength on the Grizzly is a little more expensive than Regrowth + Bear Strength on the Vampiress, and brings the two a little closer together, but I still would favor the 9 Dice Attack of the bear I could throw at my opponent.
Now, that is for just a single creature though. Maintaining such control over the mobility of more than 1 creature at a time with the Forcemaster's spells and abilities is not easily accomplished. Thus, I would only run one Grizzly and choose an alternate creature for my other option. The Vampiress would be a great choice for this second creature.
Anyways, that's my comparison between the two creature options. Both ways are good, and there is no right option. Perhaps you just don't want to have to use your mage to supplement the bear's mobility.
Now, looking at your spellbook itself, I think it looks pretty solid. I would add in Mordok's Obelisk though to go along with your Mind Controls. Their combo to instantly kill a creature is one of the most powerful combos in the game in my opinion. You also might want an extra chest of armor, in case your Dragonscale Hauberk gets dissolved or riddled with Corrode.
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1 less armor for greater quick attack that can keep the mobile.
Normally I would agree. I like the Vampiress better than the Grizzly for most mages. However, for the Forcemaster I would prefer the Grizzly.
Agreed. I run a Grizzly plus Vamp in my main Wizard build, but for my FM, I have been experimenting of late. Tried Grizzly, Galador, Vamp, Brogan. Various combo's. Two or three.
Have had best results with Grizzly plus Brogan. This is a joy if I get turn one init vs Priestess or Priest.
Brogan always gets Bear Strength. Someone gets Mongoose, Eagle Wings, etc.
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OK. I just look at it like this:
Instead of babysitting the Bears with ups, heals and teleports to get his full action attack, you require virtually no babysitting on the vampires.
You can then focus that mana on disruption, control, and buffing your FM to be a better beatstick.
End result is 3 serious threats on the battlefield instead of 2.
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You are certainly correct that the Vampiress requires less babysitting since they don't require the boost to mobility. If you don't want to babysit your creatures, that's perfectly fine.
You can then focus that mana on disruption, control, and buffing your FM to be a better beatstick.
What mana? The only thing your doing different with the Grizzly over the Vampiress is pushing things into position. Most of the time you can do that with Force Pull which is completely free if you have a Force Ring equipped.
End result is 3 serious threats on the battlefield instead of 2.
Equally likely with both strategies. Play whichever you prefer.
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Cervere, the Forest Shadow is another strong option and has advantages over both Grizzly and Vampiress.
While the others struggle against strong guards, like Dwarf Panzergarde, The elusive Cervere goes straight for the opposing Mage. Cervere's fast trait usually results in an additional round of attacks. Sprint on turn one, then drop the cat and Rouse The Beast for a four die surprise on turn two. This will often throw opponents off their game. Ready a Bear Strength on turn three and either you or the cat are hitting hard.
The others may hit harder, but Cervere's combination of speed, elusiveness and 8+ defense are a winner.
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While the others struggle against strong guards...
When this book was still viable, one of the main points was that the grizzlies melted guards like a hot knife through butter. While one could opt to go for the throat (usually the better choice with most mages/books), this book created a hopeless situation for opposing mages panicking to cast creatures that frequently died the same round they were cast, regardless of size, creating a terribly lopsided efficiency of turn issues.
The best way to stop this was lots of reverse attacks, transfustion/jynx, and the FM mirror was a real bitch until I started running six dispels to eat through charms, crushes, and MC. I also started running up to three force fields in pretty much every FM book because they are the the first thing the opponent wants off the board. Causing them to spend several rounds on dispelling force fields created a sort of soft lock on their mana while the fatties laid waste.
In my opinion, the FM, and specifically this kind of book, is not playable these days with so much meta aimed at psychic immunity, and corrode turns these fatties into meat bags. A few lucky rolls early game and this book falls on its face hard now, and yet at one time it was powerful enough to end Charm's unholy 50-70 game win streak. Sad face.
I toyed around with revisiting a more classic thoughtspore build that utilized an attack spell toolbox. Fire blast and burns in general are the most widely effective attack against so many things now, and things lke wave, corrode, and other range 2 attack spells can be nasty. Spores require constant support with blocks and nullifies to stop nukes and sleeps, which is a timing/maintenance nightmare that stressed me out, but was often godly with double-tap fire-blasting everything into the dirt.
Ultimately, I have pretty much stopped playing because I strongly prefer FM and she is just sad now. She has received very little love,and went from one of the best to one of the worst mages, in my opinion, which I suspect was a reaction to how uber she was before. I'm pretty bummed because I invested heavily into this game and don't know if I will pick it back up. There is no way to undo all of the psychic obsolescence that has mounted steadily. This book was a totally unorthodox hack-around to deal with this trend, and it was in turn stamped out, basically. It's like the designers regretted creating the FM and forced her retirement.
Wow, that was ranty! Somebody call the waaaahmbulance for me.
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Not ranty at all! Personally I really enjoy strategic perspectives from people who know their book and the game well. Thanks for the write up.
Can I ask why you feel the addition of more Psychic Immune creatures makes the book break down? The only Psychic spells I see in your latest-posted spellbook are 1 Mind Control and 1 Sleep. Does having 2 dead cards in your spellbook really turn the tide that much? If you are against a spellbook with many Psychic Immune creatures, isn't Mordok's Obelisk just as effective?
If your plan to deal with guards was to smash right through them anyway, it seems to me that a similar tactic would work well against Resilient, low-hp targets as well. And most of the things that are Resilient can't even guard.
Regarding Corrode, it seems that adding a Rhino Hide or two could give your creatures some more resistance against it. Is this not the case in your experience?
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And most of the things that are Resilient can't even guard.
Mostly true, they can have a Guard marker placed on them, and though they are Pests and you do not have to attack them. If you do attack them, they still get a Counter-Strike. I have found that as I am moving them across the board (the ones with Lumber) that it is quite smart to do this if they have nothing to attack like Vine Markers.
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Not ranty at all! Personally I really enjoy strategic perspectives from people who know their book and the game well. Thanks for the write up.
Can I ask why you feel the addition of more Psychic Immune creatures makes the book break down? The only Psychic spells I see in your latest-posted spellbook are 1 Mind Control and 1 Sleep. Does having 2 dead cards in your spellbook really turn the tide that much? If you are against a spellbook with many Psychic Immune creatures, isn't Mordok's Obelisk just as effective?
If your plan to deal with guards was to smash right through them anyway, it seems to me that a similar tactic would work well against Resilient, low-hp targets as well. And most of the things that are Resilient can't even guard.
Regarding Corrode, it seems that adding a Rhino Hide or two could give your creatures some more resistance against it. Is this not the case in your experience?
I'm wondering this too.
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"Another Rhino Skin" is another action and dollop of mana each time and it is for a just "in-case"....
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Can I ask why you feel the addition of more Psychic Immune creatures makes the book break down? The only Psychic spells I see in your latest-posted spellbook are 1 Mind Control and 1 Sleep. Does having 2 dead cards in your spellbook really turn the tide that much? If you are against a spellbook with many Psychic Immune creatures, isn't Mordok's Obelisk just as effective?
This is a raw "all or nothing" beat down version of the book. It forked into many alternative builds that reintegrated more psychic stuff as the meta adjusted. Obelisk and the like are only as effective as there are number of opposing creatures now. Before, it was a vicious win-win because of the MC superkill. FM is so mana-starved with a book like this that the 2-3 point mana hit on top of various upkeep costs is quite a burden, whereas other mages with tons of extra actions, mana generation, and equipment discounts can shrug off 5+ upkeep a round relatively painlessly.
The grumbling here comes from the bending over backward and inside out to build a viable competitive FM book that relies on spells from all over the place, yet the FM archetype was inherently designed to be very restrictive and focused on drawing from an insular pool of spells that are now basically firewood. The subtle basis of this book design and its forks is the free force pull to control the board and enable creatures with full attacks to use them every round.
There is no answer, that I know of, to how corrode ruined the fun here. Armored fatties was the center point, and it was no easy task to keep them alive once the meta adjusted. Every competitive book runs corrode now, I imagine, but honestly I have not played in 4-6 months so I just have a lot of uninformed opinions here. :D
I was hoping to come back here to find the next big hack for FM, and with as much scrambling as FM lovers must have made to find it I fear that it isn't going to surface if not already.
I'm not saying this book is no longer fun to play with, but it's no longer consistently competitive, imo, and honestly its very creation speaks volumes about the lack of competitive options the FM has, which are now like zero. I'm being quite pessimistic here so don't let it get you down. :D
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other than undead creatures most creatures on not psychic immune and I have never run into another player who uses psychic defense spells
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I know there is a lot of concern about the Forcemaster. I just wanted to be sure you all knew that Bryan and I are looking at the Forcemaster quite a bit. We absolutely want to expand the abilities she has access to. We're already working on a few ideas to help her out.
So, if you take anything away from this post please take this, We're sorry that she's lagged and we're working on bringing her back up to speed as well. It may take a bit, but we're not ignoring her in the slightest.
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I know there is a lot of concern about the Forcemaster. I just wanted to be sure you all knew that Bryan and I are looking at the Forcemaster quite a bit. We absolutely want to expand the abilities she has access to. We're already working on a few ideas to help her out.
So, if you take anything away from this post please take this, We're sorry that she's lagged and we're working on bringing her back up to speed as well. It may take a bit, but we're not ignoring her in the slightest.
You just oiled this squeaky wheel, sir! *ninja smoke bomb*
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Yea, I guess if I hadn't oiled it the you would have been too squeaky to ninja smoke bomb away.