Rerolling incomplete dice rolls with without akiro's or dawnbreaker?

[Sailor Vulcan]

I think the answer to this question should be extremely blatantly obvious to anyone who realizes that:

1. the value of a die rolled can only be determined by a roll that occurs forwards in time, and
2. the value of any single die from a dice roll is determined independently from every other single die in that dice roll, because a "dice roll" is actually multiple independent events.

The question is: If during the roll dice step of an attack, I mistakenly roll less dice than I'm supposed to, can I just roll the remaining dice as long as the roll dice step has not yet ended (no enchantments revealed, damage not yet applied)? Or do I have to reroll all of the dice I rolled already?

And just in case of bias, I'll phrase this same question in a slightly different way: If during the roll dice step of an attack, I mistakenly roll less than I'm supposed to, can I reroll all of the dice I have rolled already plus the remaining dice that I have not yet rolled? Or must I only roll the remaining dice without rerolling anything?

I think the answer to this is obvious: Incomplete dice rolls cannot be rerolled, since if people could reroll incomplete dice rolls without using Temple of the Dawnbreaker or Akiro's Favor, nothing would stop them from INTENTIONALLY leaving out a single die in one of their dice rolls and THEN pretending that they merely forgot that die so that they could be allowed to reroll all but one of them if they don't like their original results for all but one of their dice.

Unfortunately, there are apparently a LOT of players who disagree with me about this, including at least one playtester and two (IMO) pro-level players who I highly respect. Their attempt at a counterexample was to say that if someone rolls too many dice, then all the dice are rerolled. I explained to them the fundamental difference between adding dice that have not been rolled yet, and subtracting dice that have already been rolled: that adding dice to a dice roll doesn't change the original values on any one die, but taking away dice after those dice have already been rolled and then rerolling them does change values.

My argument was ignored. I'm kind of hoping that they'll use their great intelligence to cure themselves of what I HOPE is just temporary lack of common sense. We do agree on one thing, though. We're going to need an official ruling to settle this issue.

[jacksmack]

Henry_Ketchup is that you?

[Vargtass]

Both a full reroll or partial reroll are aceptable solutions. What matters is that you use the same principle in every situation. If there is a risk that "heated argument" would arise from how dice are handled just decide on a principle before you start playing. (full rerolls of any faulty roll is probably the least abuseable system)

[IndyPendant]

I just thought I'd jump in to mention: in most games we play here, not only do we just roll the additional dice if we roll too few...if we roll too many dice (usually involves Aegis), then we just roll the excess and subtract them from the original result.  (If there's a negative somehow, we just call it 0, of course.)

Keeps the game moving. : )

[sIKE]

The question is: If during the roll dice step of an attack, I mistakenly roll less dice than I'm supposed to, can I just reroll the remaining dice as long as the roll dice step has not yet ended (no enchantments revealed, damage not yet applied)? Or do I have to reroll all of the dice I rolled already?

First, I think you confuse things by saying re-roll the remaining dice. The question is can I roll the additional two dice that I missed rolling the first time around.

Please remember this was in the context of tournament rules expectations. The responses I put forth were:

A: Roll the Additional two dice (in a causal game this is the norm)
B: Re-Roll all of the dice
C: No additional rolls at all

I am not on the rules committee and have not managed a Mage Wars tourney. My personal inclination is a hard no on B. A strong maybe for A, but would not strike C from being a possibility. I could also see A being allowed once with a warning and C being enforced afterwards.

As Vargtass stated chose one and stick with it for entire game in a casual setting, though I believe that option B is easy to abuse and therefore would not agree to play with that rule. It is way too easy to abuse IMHO.

Rolling too many dice should mean a re-roll of all dice which one would you subtract? The blank, the 1, the 2, the crit 1, or the crit 2? Once again in a tourney setting I would think a warning would be in order and a forfeit if it kept happening but I am not sure on the ins/outs of these two particular situations from a tournament point of view.

*** in OCTGN the original roll of the effect dice would still be used in either re-roll scenario though.

[Sailor Vulcan]

The question is: If during the roll dice step of an attack, I mistakenly roll less dice than I'm supposed to, can I just reroll the remaining dice as long as the roll dice step has not yet ended (no enchantments revealed, damage not yet applied)? Or do I have to reroll all of the dice I rolled already?

First, I think you confuse things by saying re-roll the remaining dice. The question is can I roll the additional two dice that I missed rolling the first time around.

Please remember this was in the context of tournament rules expectations. The responses I put forth were:

A: Roll the Additional two dice (in a causal game this is the norm)
B: Re-Roll all of the dice
C: No additional rolls at all

I am not on the rules committee and have not managed a Mage Wars tourney. My personal inclination is a hard no on B. A strong maybe for A, but would not strike C from being a possibility. I could also see A being allowed once with a warning and C being enforced afterwards.

As Vargtass stated chose one and stick with it for entire game in a casual setting, though I believe that option B is easy to abuse and therefore would not agree to play with that rule. It is way too easy to abuse IMHO.

Rolling too many dice should mean a re-roll of all dice which one would you subtract? The blank, the 1, the 2, the crit 1, or the crit 2? Once again in a tourney setting I would think a warning would be in order and a forfeit if it kept happening but I am not sure on the ins/outs of these two particular situations from a tournament point of view.

*** in OCTGN the original roll of the effect dice would still be used in either re-roll scenario though.

Thx for pointing out the typo. I fixed it. Also, it sounds like you're mostly agreeing with me now. However, I hardly think a warning is even on the table when the roll dice step hasn't ended yet.

[Shad0w]

I responded to this when ask in a pm. Will have to get back home before copying it. Table is action up  is conection.

[sIKE]

I responded to this when ask in a pm. Will have to get back home before copying it. Table is action up  is conection.

Here is the thread....

How would you rule at a tourney if I rolled against a creature with 5 dice (damage is not applied yet) and then realized that I forgot that the creature was +2 Flame to my Flameblast.

- Tough
- Roll the additional 2 dice
- Re-roll all 7 dice

Any other possibilities. I am looking for a tourney type ruling, in casual play I just would roll the additional 2 dice.

Roll the 2 extra dice now and then apply the damage. If the damage had been applied and the dice had not been moved roll the 2 dice and apply extra damage if any. If the dice had been moved you should not go back.

[Schwenkgott]

I admit, it happens to me sometimes too, but see it that way: If every player would take more care to their rolls, the problem would not exist.

In casual game environment, i would say the least complicated way is this:

1) If less dice are rolled, simple roll the remaining dice (keep the first effect die roll on octgn in mind)
2) If to many dice are rolled, roll the dice, that were too much, and substract them from the first result.

In a tournament envirnoment though, i would handle this otherwise. Everyone is even more responsible for his rolls:

1) If you forget to roll dice, then it's your bad luck. You could have taken more care at counting. No rerolls. No Adding dice.
2) If you roll too many dice, then its your fault and it concerns the opponent a lot. It should be his place to decide, wether you have to roll the substraction dice or to reroll the entire thing with the correct amount. In that way your opponent can take advantage of your lack of math, because he took a look at the first rolls result.

[jacksmack]

I was in this heated argument on OCTGN.


On OTCGN you can mess up the rolls in 5 ways:

1: Roll too few dice

2: Roll too many dice

3: Roll before an enchantment is revealed (aegis, agony etc).

4: Roll before Divine Intervention / Force Field is revealed.
The owner of 1 of these enchantments did not get to reveal because the attacker by mistake skipped right to the roll dice step after turning his marker on his creature.
Will he reveal it after he sees a blank roll (after armor is considered) ? -No he will not.

5: Roll before defender declares if he wishes to use defense.

In real life you can add this:

6: 1 or more dice fall on the floor

7: 1 or more dice is not lying on straight ground and thus can be interpreted as 2 different results

There is more stuff I don't wish to add such as mixing up the rolled dice with the dice pool because of a slack roll, or you roll the dice with such force that they are about to leave the other side of the table and your opponent stops them which obviously effects what side the involved dice will land on.

My point is - there is a lot of situations. And wrong rolls effect the game. And since humans by definition is subjective and thus will change their opinion (perhaps only slightly - but there are many 'grey-zones') depending on the situation, then by far the easiest and most intuitive is:

Wrong roll = reroll all

Correct roll = roll stands
And then the knowledge of the known result favors the owner of hidden enchantments or un declared defense in the cases where the dice rolling player skipped 1 or more steps.



Example:
Im player A - and I always always always insist on rerolling in situation 1 and 2 (see top).
Player B rolls 4 dice when he was meant to roll 6 dice. Player A points out he rolled false amount of dice and ask player B to reroll all.

Scenario X:
The 4 dice shows 1 normal damage and 3 blanks.
Player A: "wrong amount of dice, please reroll all"
Player B: "OK I reroll all 6 dice."


Scenario Y:
The 4 dice shows 3 critical and 2 normal damage.
Player A: "wrong amount of dice, please reroll all"
Player B: "I will just roll 2 more dice and add to the result"


I hope I made my point come to show.


last edit:
And I can add daze to the list:

If a player rolls correct amount of dice, but forget to roll daze check. Then the roll stands if he succeeds the daze check.

[Sailor Vulcan]

Can you all please PLEASE pay attention to the supposedly unimportant fact that we are discussing a situation where THE ROLL DICE STEP HAS NOT ENDED YET? No more enchantments revealed yet, no more markers flipped yet. This really shouldn't be so difficult. It's an easy, obvious question. Can we please get an official ruling soon?

[lettucemode]

Typically, I have seen players use the shift-targeting feature of OCTGN to show declaration of the attack, then wait for the other player to say "okay" before rolling the dice. I am surprised that anyone would proceed to roll dice while there are still facedown enchantments on the defender, that strikes me as bad form. Not saying it doesn't happen though.

Imaginator, looks like Shad0w has already given his ruling for if too few dice are rolled...if the dice have not been touched or moved, roll the extras and proceed accordingly. On OCTGN the dice results are always known so on there you would always re-roll the extras as long as play has not progressed too far past that point.

However I too would like to see the official word on what happens when too many dice are rolled.

Wrong roll = reroll all

Correct roll = roll stands

I would also be okay with this as long as both players do it every time. You presented a scenario where a player was re-rolling inconsistently, I hope that did not actually happen as that is bad form for sure.

[Sailor Vulcan]

Typically, I have seen players use the shift-targeting feature of OCTGN to show declaration of the attack, then wait for the other player to say "okay" before rolling the dice. I am surprised that anyone would proceed to roll dice while there are still facedown enchantments on the defender, that strikes me as bad form. Not saying it doesn't happen though.

Imaginator, looks like Shad0w has already given his ruling for if too few dice are rolled...if the dice have not been touched or moved, roll the extras and proceed accordingly. On OCTGN the dice results are always known so on there you would always re-roll the extras as long as play has not progressed too far past that point.

However I too would like to see the official word on what happens when too many dice are rolled.

Wrong roll = reroll all

Correct roll = roll stands

I would also be okay with this as long as both players do it every time. You presented a scenario where a player was re-rolling inconsistently, I hope that did not actually happen as that is bad form for sure.

Seriously, how many times do I have to say it? IT IS STILL THE ROLL DICE STEP. Enchantments can only be revealed when they are not interrupting steps. This is not a matter of bad form, the defender merely CHOSE not to reveal their enchant before the roll dice step, and it is STILL the roll dice step and the defender has not yet announced that they want to reveal an enchant or do anything else.

If you're all just pulling a prank on me, it REALLY isn't funny. You're actually SCARING me. And I'm not joking about that nor an I being sarcastic. What's scaring me is your blatant disregard for your own intelligence and common sense without even realizing that you're disregarding them in the first place, in regards to a question whose answer is so blatantly obvious that most people who have ever rolled more than one die in their lives know the answer, including all of you little over two days ago!

The proof? If I played against any of you in real life and one of you rolled five dice and then two dice and then the effect die, all in the same roll dice step, no one would treat it any differently then if all those dice were rolled at the exact same moment in real time, BECAUSE IT ISN'T ANY DIFFERENT. And at the last two official mage wars tournaments I attended this was completely acceptable, as it has always been in mage wars, as it has always been in ALL GAMES THAT USE DICE ROLLS.

[lettucemode]

Imaginator...i do not appreciate the comments about my intelligence, and im sure no one else does either. if you will calm down and re-read my post, you will see that I am agreeing with you. Rolling the die you forgot after rolling the other dice is an excellent way to resolve the situation. jacksmack's proposal works too - yes it assumes that people will not try to game it, but if you can't count on your opponent not to do that you should just leave the game IMO.

Of corse you cannot reveal an enchantment until the correct dice roll is over (or until both players have moved on from that step)- duh. Though I don't see how enchantments are relevant to your original question, which I understand was about the proper way to handle rolling the wrong amount of dice. The only reason I brought them up was in response to one of jacksmack's comments, as a small tangent.

If you think that we do not fully understand the problem, then restating the problem would do a lot to move the conversation forward in a constructive manner.

[Sailor Vulcan]

Imaginator...i do not appreciate the comments about my intelligence, and im sure no one else does either. if you will calm down and re-read my post, you will see that I am agreeing with you. Rolling the die you forgot after rolling the other dice is an excellent way to resolve the situation. jacksmack's proposal works too - yes it assumes that people will not try to game it, but if you can't count on your opponent not to do that you should just leave the game IMO.

Of corse you cannot reveal an enchantment until the correct dice roll is over (or until both players have moved on from that step)- duh. Though I don't see how enchantments are relevant to your original question, which I understand was about the proper way to handle rolling the wrong amount of dice. The only reason I brought them up was in response to one of jacksmack's comments, as a small tangent.

If you think that we do not fully understand the problem, then restating the problem would do a lot to move the conversation forward in a constructive manner.

I apologize lettucemode. That was rude of me. I did not mean what I said at you specificially. Even though you were merely going a bit off topic, it doesn't make sense that most people who post on this thread would have done the same thing throughout the entire thread without even trying to answer my original question first (with the exception of you, sIKE and shad0w). I was not saying that anyone here is stupid, far from it. It's just that I felt like people were flat out ignoring their intelligence.

This entire discussion, from the beginning, has been clearly and explicitly about a situation in which i rolled a certain number of attack dice, then remembered a attack dice +x trait like melee +x, ranged +x or damage type +x; and then rolled the remaining dice, all in the same roll dice step. This made my opponent really angry at me and he conceded because i wouldn't reroll the dice I had already rolled. When I was on octgn and this happened, there were multiple spectators including a playtester and two pro-level players, and they all sided with my opponent on this.

I did not mean at all to insult your intelligence. I think you are quite intelligent, as is everyone else on this thread. But I did mean it when I said that people on this thread are scaring me. I'm sorry for freaking out; I was frustrated, bewildered and scared by the kind of responses I was getting. I didn't mean to come across like I was yelling at you.