Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Player Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Ophidimancer on October 04, 2015, 02:38:47 AM
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Would it be possible to issue new artwork for the Priestess that isn't as revealing? There's an issue with the different representations of the women in Mage Wars as opposed to the men, but they can usually be explained as cultural differences, but it's a little harder to explain to my little niece why the vestments of the Priestess are so revealing when the Priest who is wearing very similar vestments is so much more covered up. As far as I knew Asyra also isn't a god of love or fertility or anything like that?
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Another art for the orc Warlord too please: I'm offended by his huge biceps! ::)
Cmon! It's a fantasy game that tries to open you a door to _escape_ your normal world with all its limitations of cultural thinking. You just have to walk through.
It's not like the priestress is wearing a bikini right?
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We are still talking about his Niece and cultural norms in ophidimancers country. Some cultures have different approach to nudity and what is acceptable in their society and i fully understand his proposition. I would wait for Academy priestess. She had much more cloths on her.
Bikini mage wars edition would be cool :)
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Another art for the orc Warlord too please: I'm offended by his huge biceps! ::)
Cmon! It's a fantasy game that tries to open you a door to _escape_ your normal world with all its limitations of cultural thinking. You just have to walk through.
It's not like the priestress is wearing a bikini right?
"I don't have an issue with that, so obviously no one does and it's not actually a problem so I'm going to make light of what you just said in order to belittle your post and get you to stop talking about it."
I brought this up because I sincerely have an issue with this. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't be so dismissive. I've been an avid fantasy fan since I was a kid and I want to pass on this love of fantasy to my niece and nephews, but I find it an issue to do so without also passively teaching them that women, as a matter of course, are treated different visually.
Like I said, most of the artwork depicting women in Mage Wars is explainable for culture (Johktari garb is only present in the Beastmaster, so all her people could dress that way, Druid is clothed in leaves, Royal Archer and angels are minor characters) but when it comes to the Priestess we have an example of what their vestments look like on a man and he's completely covered up, so it's really hard to give an explanation that's not, "Well most men like to see women's skin, so that why she looks like that."
That's why I appreciate the new artwork for the Dawnbreaker's Chosen. Her armor is actually practical looking, and without the stupid breast separation that is usually present in such artwork and is, historically speaking, stupid because it would direct the force of a strike right to her sternum.
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Another art for the orc Warlord too please: I'm offended by his huge biceps! ::)
Cmon! It's a fantasy game that tries to open you a door to _escape_ your normal world with all its limitations of cultural thinking. You just have to walk through.
It's not like the priestress is wearing a bikini right?
"I don't have an issue with that, so obviously no one does and it's not actually a problem so I'm going to make light of what you just said in order to belittle your post and get you to stop talking about it."
I brought this up because I sincerely have an issue with this. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't be so dismissive. I've been an avid fantasy fan since I was a kid and I want to pass on this love of fantasy to my niece and nephews, but I find it an issue to do so without also passively teaching them that women, as a matter of course, are treated different visually.
Like I said, most of the artwork depicting women in Mage Wars is explainable for culture (Johktari garb is only present in the Beastmaster, so all her people could dress that way, Druid is clothed in leaves, Royal Archer and angels are minor characters) but when it comes to the Priestess we have an example of what their vestments look like on a man and he's completely covered up, so it's really hard to give an explanation that's not, "Well most men like to see women's skin, so that why she looks like that."
That's why I appreciate the new artwork for the Dawnbreaker's Chosen. Her armor is actually practical looking, and without the stupid breast separation that is usually present in such artwork and is, historically speaking, stupid because it would direct the force of a strike right to her sternum.
Well, the other priest is of Malakai, not Asyra.
This topic has been discussed at length on countless threads on this forum. While some of the players like the artwork as it is, I think we all agree that it's still sexist. Unfortunately the gaming population is notorious for its sexism, and if Mage Wars and Arcane Wonders is to grow, they probably need to appeal to that.
Keep in mind that the storyline and the gameplay aren't sexist, just the artwork. Therefore, it seems clear that Arcane Wonders themselves are not sexist, and if the market were different so would the artwork.
Furthermore, I suspect the sexist artwork is not likely to change much until Mage Wars is popular enough already that they don't need it. I suspect some of the new not-sexist artwork like the academy priestess and the Dawnbreaker's Chosen is meant to appease people already playing. The sexist artwork has been complained about so much and I'm guessing they'll also want some recurring female characters who aren't visually portrayed in such a sexist manner. That way when the game does become sufficiently popular they won't have to go through the painful process of gradually redesigning ALL the female character art to be less sexist, but will have some ready-made already.
This is mostly speculation though. All I do know is:
1. While the artwork is often sexist, the storyline and gameplay are not.
2. Arcane Wonders is a very fair-minded company and aside from the artwork they have never expressed any sexist attitudes or opinions whatsoever to my knowledge, or at least no sexist attitudes and opinions that aren't already shared by most people.
3. Correct me if I'm wrong, since I might not be remembering right, but I'm fairly sure that the artist is a woman. Not sure if that is relevant to anything or not.
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That's why I appreciate the new artwork for the Dawnbreaker's Chosen. Her armor is actually practical looking, and without the stupid breast separation that is usually present in such artwork and is, historically speaking, stupid because it would direct the force of a strike right to her sternum.
The dawnbreaker's chosen is completely epic. That card... ::)
I think that this happened because the priestess/angels were in the first core set (first expansion for guardian angel) and they wanted to make it more appealing. I agree that a covered priestess would be nice though.
(http://img04.deviantart.net/d138/i/2012/310/3/5/priestess_of_light_by_sycra-d5fhsf3.jpg)
The warlock, Siren, wizard, forcemaster, beastmaster and druid all seem very strong, independent women. I even think the druid or siren could be naked without it being sexist.
I can imagine AW wants to change it but don't want to give it a budget since there are probably a dozen things they have to do. :P
btw: IMO, just be honest to your niece/nephew. Explain why the art is like that. The world is filled with sexism and internet is not helping this.. Better help them understand the world and make them able to see things in the right perspective. Being prude/protective will not help them.
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This topic has been discussed at length on countless threads on this forum.
Has it? Thank goodness, I just did a cursory search and didn't turn anything up. I'm glad I'm not the only one.
While some of the players like the artwork as it is, I think we all agree that it's still sexist.
Oh good. Again, I'm glad I'm not the only one.
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I think we all agree that it's still sexist.
Not all of us by far.....
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Ok so I found an old topic about this and I think most of what I have to say has already been said HERE (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13447.0) and brilliantly by RingKichard.
The only thing I may have to add is that I don't want the images my niece, and maybe someday a daughter or son, is growing up surrounded by to reinforce the idea that women are meant to be on display and owe it to the world to conform to someone else's standard of beauty as worth. As well as images of men who are clothed in a much more utilitarian way and, emphasizing that men's worth is about the actions and choices they make. That's a toxic dichotomy.
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Oh man, I remember that thread. I'm pretty sure I burned a bridge or two in the community that week. That is, if I had any bridges standing from the first, since deleted thread I started on this issue. I regret that it happened that way, but I regret further that it was necessary. I miss Deckbuilder; he was an excellent gamer, who left for many reasons, all his own. And I miss Aylin, who was usually right and never diplomatic. They were both good to have around, and I still think fondly of them. I hope they are well, and have stopped killing each other with their words.
I will say that since I wrote my commentary in that thread, AW has made good progress, both in its sexism and in its marketing strategy. Not everything is well: we're still releasing things too slowly, and the next major expansion features a chesty mage in a swimsuit. But those problems are very much a result of past errors. That mage art was purchased a long time ago, and art assets are very expensive, especially for a character that's going to appear on many cards. And the production delays AW faces are both circumstantial and structural, and the structures are now much improved.
AW is doing better, and I'd point to an unreleased product that I can't talk about yet to prove my point, but well, I've signed an NDA. Please believe I would not be able to continue to work with AW if it continued to violate my inegrity, but also that we are all human and progress takes time and hard work. I think I expressed my recent gratitude, but I'll do it again: thank you for the progress we've made, I can't wait to share it.
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Here is a pic of "new" young priestess from academy.
http://magewars.cz/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/3-e1418154890684.png
I think that she is covered pretty well.
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That's.... not really that much better. Despite having slightly more of her skin covered up, her body still seems to be on display. I'm not quite sure you understand the nuance, but the issue is more of the discrepancy between how the women are portrayed and how the men are portrayed.
@RingKichard Thanks for the reassuring news! I'm glad there's someone on the team that is cognizant of these issues and willing to speak up about it.
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I'm on your side about the original priestess. But how is that not much better? Because she is not wearing pants or the heels? ???
I really dont see how she is "on display".
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It's not just about skin coverage. A woman in a full body catsuit would be fully covered up, but still on display because of how tight the suit is. Same here with that laced corset looking thing.
How much of the men's bodies can you see through their clothing? None really.
And I'm not trying to be sex negative either. I think people can dress as provocatively as they want. The issue here is the stark difference between the portrayal of men and women. The men are shown as combat ready and capable by their dress and equipment. The women are shown off instead. It illustrates that women are expected to display themselves even when they are supposed to be trying to fight.
Who goes into a duel wearing strappy heels? How are you supposed to run and fight while laced into a corset?
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I really don't agree on the corset. It doesn't even seem thight. It could be made of leather underneath the fabric for protection. I can see your point on the heels though, but still, it's such a minor thing... The necro's robes are unfit for battling as well. A priestess is not a warrior that wants to be very mobile. She plans to heal her summoned knights.
I also really could be hating on the beastmasters/dwarven/wizard's epic beards. I'm not able to grow an awesome beard like that and it could give me a complex and wrong expectations about that. It's always so easy to find things to hate on... ::)
Agreed, there are in general problems with fantasy-women and the priestess/angels in mage wars. The new priestess really does not belong in that category.
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It's not just about skin coverage. A woman in a full body catsuit would be fully covered up, but still on display because of how tight the suit is. Same here with that laced corset looking thing.
How much of the men's bodies can you see through their clothing? None really.
And I'm not trying to be sex negative either. I think people can dress as provocatively as they want. The issue here is the stark difference between the portrayal of men and women. The men are shown as combat ready and capable by their dress and equipment. The women are shown off instead. It illustrates that women are expected to display themselves even when they are supposed to be trying to fight.
Who goes into a duel wearing strappy heels? How are you supposed to run and fight while laced into a corset?
I usually just pretend that they are wearing something else that's more appropriate to their occupation and the setting. It's an easy enough thing to pretend, considering how much more egalitarian the storyline and gameplay are.
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Agreed, there are in general problems with fantasy-women and the priestess/angels in mage wars. The new priestess really does not belong in that category.
It's not so much a binary yes/no categorization, but rather degrees of problematic. Yes, the Academy Priestess is a bit better, but the issue is still present.
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In my opinion, the only artwork that does stand out as problematic is the Priestess. I mean, not only is her outfit extremely sexualized for belonging to a religious order, but it is also ludicrously impractical from any conceivable point of view. WHAT IS GOING ON WITH HER SLEEVES?! Those things must drag on the ground constantly.... They'd be a massive hindrance and probably be covered in filth.
The other mages are completely fine though. The female Beastmaster is somewhat scantily clad, but the artists were clearly going for a tribal theme, and her outfit is still practical and "realistic" looking with that in mind. The Forcemaster is wearing a robe and skirt over light leather armor (it doesn't really look like a corset to me). Since she's kind of like a jedi instead of a traditional warrior, that makes perfect sense. The Druid is sexualized, but there are plenty of real-world nudist "hippie" communities, and the druid is almost certainly referencing that with her "natural" clothing. The female Wizard is not sexualized whatsoever. The female Warlock, while wearing less armor than the male version, does still wear decent amounts of armor and looks ready for a fight. I do kind of wish the Siren was less humanoid (more of a mermaid), but it's not all that big of a deal.
I also don't have a problem with the angel artwork in general (although I do dislike the Guardian Angel being half-armored; pick one or the other!). Both male and female angels are depicting wearing very little armor. A lot of real-life artists also depict angels this way (probably because of the Bible passage about people not being ashamed of their bodies or wearing clothes until after original sin).
While only the Priestess artwork is really problematic for me personally, I do see your point about male and female mages being treated differently overall, even if the difference is sometimes subtle. That's why I really love the Dawnbreaker's Chosen art, and wish it was the (eventual) female Paladin. It would be great to have at least one really heavily-armored female Mage, and I'm also looking forward to seeing how Arcane Wonders eventually tackle the male Druid.