Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Reddicediaries on May 02, 2017, 02:51:09 PM
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So after playing a bunch with the paladin I've learned quite a bit about how he plays. Since day 1 the money question has been: do I go temple or do I go SWAT team? Whenever I consider temple, there are two main points to consider.
1. How do I want to cast the temple. Do I want it out turn 1 with a harmonize? Do I want it turn 2 while opening with clerics and crystals. Do I want to do it like Coshade does; cast a delayed temple or non at all. Etc
2. What can the paladin do with temple that the other holy mages can't?.
Priestess: Is inherantly better in the long game bc of the 10 channel and her abilities.
Priest: He primarily uses temple to get out cheap creatures like clerics, ehren, and defenders and often will get good value out of HAing one of the cheap clerics or knights.
So what can Paladin do with temple?
1. Clerics + knights + light of dawns. This seems the most logical way to use it, but I ran into a LOT of Mana struggles doing this.
2. Griffin Swarm: No thanks. Griffin shines as a Holy Avenger.
3. Red helm/ white cloaked knight swarm: Personally, I don't like etheir of these two very much. Who would use an attack spell on whitecloak if he was not immune and strongest creature interactions I'm still not a fan of.
4. Big angel/dragon: These might be better without temple and run into the same issues as number 1.
Level 1-3 holy swarm: I don't think this is great. Holy isn't really the best swarm school. They don't really have many AOE buffs unless you plan to turtle.
Which is another point; the paladin wants to hit things and gain valor. He doesn't want to be sitting back playing support the whole time. If your doing that, it is likely a good idea to switch to priestess.
Rant over. :)
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Interesting analysis!
So you are telling us there is no good scenario for Paladin with temple. That is the summary. Do I get that right?
I prefer the banner anyway, so that's good for me :)
One question remains: what are AOE buffs?
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Interesting analysis!
So you are telling us there is no good scenario for Paladin with temple. That is the summary. Do I get that right?
I prefer the banner anyway, so that's good for me :)
One question remains: what are AOE buffs?
Thanks!
I'm not saying there's no good way, just none that I have figured out/made work.
AOE stands for are of effect. In the way I was using it, I meant holy doesn't have easy access to marked for death or something similar. Etherain life tree, spring, call of the wild, totems, etc.
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No but i believe the paladin gets access to concentrated ground, pillar of righteous flame, fortified position, HoBS, ToMeraveran, mending wave, group heal, group mend, healing madrigal, and a few others. Not to mention partial access to cards like renewing rain and sunfire amulet.
So honestly i think the issue you're having isn't that he didn't have access to aoe buffs (attacks, enchants, conjurations etc), its that you don't LIKE the ones he does have access to. No?
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No but i believe the paladin gets access to concentrated ground, pillar of righteous flame, fortified position, HoBS, ToMeraveran, mending wave, group heal, group mend, healing madrigal, and a few others. Not to mention partial access to cards like renewing rain and sunfire amulet.
So honestly i think the issue you're having isn't that he didn't have access to aoe buffs (attacks, enchants, conjurations etc), its that you don't LIKE the ones he does have access to. No?
Pretty spot on Remeo!
I totally ignored those whole buffs! I meant more dice buffs which only meravaran really helps with.
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Why not have the paladin attack while his swarm supports him, rather than the other way around? Summon a bunch of noble vanguards to help attack enemies and guard your mage, and your mage can be the one to finish off the targets, using healing and protection to keep your vanguards alive. Noble vanguard has vigilant and intercept and is only lv2 and costs 9 mana.
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Why not have the paladin attack while his swarm supports him, rather than the other way around? Summon a bunch of noble vanguards to help attack enemies and guard your mage, and your mage can be the one to finish off the targets, using healing and protection to keep your vanguards alive. Noble vanguard has vigilant and intercept and is only lv2 and costs 9 mana.
That's a good idea! The issue is, vanguards tbh, are not super durable. They have pretty poor initial stats in exchange for really solid abilities.
You need cass for this or you'll find yourself unable to spend your qc on other things.
The healing song would likely be included in the 2's or even 3's in a book like that.
However, the paladin needs some creature backup that can actually do consistant dmg. So something like ehren, KOW, Brogan, Blue knight (although less preferable in this case due to his mana "tax" and the need to spend considerable mana on group healing effects", or dorseas.)
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Why not have the paladin attack while his swarm supports him, rather than the other way around? Summon a bunch of noble vanguards to help attack enemies and guard your mage, and your mage can be the one to finish off the targets, using healing and protection to keep your vanguards alive. Noble vanguard has vigilant and intercept and is only lv2 and costs 9 mana.
Your also spend a TON of mana, actions, and sbp to keep those vanguards alive. 1 ring of fire + creature means by by at least 1-2 vanguards.
Cass helps, but still.
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Why not have the paladin attack while his swarm supports him, rather than the other way around? Summon a bunch of noble vanguards to help attack enemies and guard your mage, and your mage can be the one to finish off the targets, using healing and protection to keep your vanguards alive. Noble vanguard has vigilant and intercept and is only lv2 and costs 9 mana.
That's a good idea! The issue is, vanguards tbh, are not super durable. They have pretty poor initial stats in exchange for really solid abilities.
You need cass for this or you'll find yourself unable to spend your qc on other things.
The healing song would likely be included in the 2's or even 3's in a book like that.
However, the paladin needs some creature backup that can actually do consistant dmg. So something like ehren, KOW, Brogan, Blue knight (although less preferable in this case due to his mana "tax" and the need to spend considerable mana on group healing effects", or dorseas.)
I'm not sure you really need another strong attacker like Dorseus. If you need to get past finite life just get rid of it or use martyr's restoration. Paladin is already really good at destroying enemy creatures. Temple of Asyra can summon cassiel and she can cast healing spells for you when necessary. Also the vanguards wouldn't have to kill anything they would just be doing some damage to make it easier for the paladin to finish off the enemy creature while also protecting the paladin. You could also use valshalla come to think of it. So if they do kill your vanguards you get a big buff on her. Also you know know iguana regrowth can be cast by cassiel right?
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Why not have the paladin attack while his swarm supports him, rather than the other way around? Summon a bunch of noble vanguards to help attack enemies and guard your mage, and your mage can be the one to finish off the targets, using healing and protection to keep your vanguards alive. Noble vanguard has vigilant and intercept and is only lv2 and costs 9 mana.
That's a good idea! The issue is, vanguards tbh, are not super durable. They have pretty poor initial stats in exchange for really solid abilities.
You need cass for this or you'll find yourself unable to spend your qc on other things.
The healing song would likely be included in the 2's or even 3's in a book like that.
However, the paladin needs some creature backup that can actually do consistant dmg. So something like ehren, KOW, Brogan, Blue knight (although less preferable in this case due to his mana "tax" and the need to spend considerable mana on group healing effects", or dorseas.)
I'm not sure you really need another strong attacker like Dorseus. If you need to get past finite life just get rid of it or use martyr's restoration. Paladin is already really good at destroying enemy creatures. Temple of Asyra can summon cassiel and she can cast healing spells for you when necessary. Also the vanguards wouldn't have to kill anything they would just be doing some damage to make it easier for the paladin to finish off the enemy creature while also protecting the paladin. You could also use valshalla come to think of it. So if they do kill your vanguards you get a big buff on her. Also you know know iguana regrowth can be cast by cassiel right?
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It's worth trying out!
I still think the vanguards might die to easily. Also, 4 vanguards, 2 clerics, valshalla. What else would you run?
7 creatures does not justify temple imo.
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tbh im not sure about valshalla. she might work really well and she might not. i think cassiel would be a good idea, or perhaps a forge. probably cassiel though. problem with valshalla is that she's expensive and by the time you bring her out your creatures might already be dying. so if you do use valshalla i think you would have to cast valshalla first then transition to using the temple of asyra. maybe if you send valshalla over to harrass enemy while you build up that will compensate for the slow start of your engine. alternatively you could play without valshalla and just try to keep your vanguards alive, which would also probably be viable. either way has a decent chance of working and you should probably try both to see which way you'd rather play it.
would also recommend temple of meraveran. etherian lifetree might also be good come to think of it.
i havent ever played as paladin so take everything i say with a grain of salt.
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tbh im not sure about valshalla. she might work really well and she might not. i think cassiel would be a good idea, or perhaps a forge. probably cassiel though. problem with valshalla is that she's expensive and by the time you bring her out your creatures might already be dying. so if you do use valshalla i think you would have to cast valshalla first then transition to using the temple of asyra. maybe if you send valshalla over to harrass enemy while you build up that will compensate for the slow start of your engine. alternatively you could play without valshalla and just try to keep your vanguards alive, which would also probably be viable. either way has a decent chance of working and you should probably try both to see which way you'd rather play it.
would also recommend temple of meraveran. etherian lifetree might also be good come to think of it.
i havent ever played as paladin so take everything i say with a grain of salt.
Valshalla is best cast after the weenies imo. :)
If you don't have temple though, that's 6 or 6+ actions casting creatures that are not desinged to get in the action and be a threat.
Sending Valshalla in alone is a big waste imo. She gets no buffs and will most likely not cause a huge impact (other than her dying fast. ;)
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the point of summoning valshalla early is not just to put on early pressure. it gives the enemy an incentive not to try to kill your vanguards. which protects your mage. and if they do decide to kill your vanguards, valshalla will be able to strike them even harder. btw i sent you a pm.
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the point of summoning valshalla early is not just to put on early pressure. it gives the enemy an incentive not to try to kill your vanguards. which protects your mage. and if they do decide to kill your vanguards, valshalla will be able to strike them even harder. btw i sent you a pm.
Saw it!
That makes sense, but casting Valshalla early reveals more of your plan than casting her later.
I already have a Valshalla book lol. With Paladin.
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well idk if revealing part of your plan is that big of a cost here. and using valshalla doesnt automatically tell people why you're using her.
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well idk if revealing part of your plan is that big of a cost here. and using valshalla doesnt automatically tell people why you're using her.
If your using Valshalla, you better be using level 1-2 creatures that can die or she is not worth it imo.
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yeah good point. if you're using valshalla you probably want at least 4 minor creatures. that being said there's still a lot of different things you can do with that, and your opponent wont know which one you're doing. and even if they do that's not necessarily that big a deal.
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My current paladin books are : Forge/Ehren based paladin, Ehren/double Griffin based paladin, and temple paladin which Valshalla comes in and out of.
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well you wont know for sure unless you test it. up for a game of mw on octgn? i know the server is down but we can still play by using hamachi:
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=18112.0
also edited the post because it turns out octgn will probably be back online sooner than i thought. they still dont have an ETA though.
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Maybe. ;)
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I don't know about anyone else but i find the big angels to all be grossly overcost and under powered for the mana. They lack much armor or life for the mana and SP spent on them and they die very fast to focus fire. Therefore an early valshala might just catch an acid ball and a boulder and die before she wraths up as it were.
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I don't know about anyone else but i find the big angels to all be grossly overcost and under powered for the mana. They lack much armor or life for the mana and SP spent on them and they die very fast to focus fire. Therefore an early valshala might just catch an acid ball and a boulder and die before she wraths up as it were.
Exactly the reason early Valshalla is not good imo. :)
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I think you're missing the full point tough. The angels lack the overt force of an Adramalech, ir the staying power of an earth or water elemental. The only thing they have going for them is flying, which is practically worthless nowadays s a defensive measure. Im saying you shouldn't bother with the big angels... at all. They require way to much support so unless you've built your build totally around them they arent strong enough to do what you need them to do.
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I think you're missing the full point tough. The angels lack the overt force of an Adramalech, ir the staying power of an earth or water elemental. The only thing they have going for them is flying, which is practically worthless nowadays s a defensive measure. Im saying you shouldn't bother with the big angels... at all. They require way to much support so unless you've built your build totally around them they arent strong enough to do what you need them to do.
That's the other problem yes. They need to be built around which is the reason that I almost always cut them.
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It's a good decent enough spawnpoint and paladin can just as much have a solid book with it as the cleric mages (imo much better than priest). With his access to ballista, war spells and armor he can react fast when rushed and he is the only mage that can intercept things to protect smaller creatures like archers (and easily guard with his armor) or the temple itself. In the long run he can use aura's as free buffs for all creatures in his zone so that's even better when you have many small creatures. If not by melee attacking, you can also gain valor by healing, intercepting, the occasional attack spell and by using your challange on creatures that will attack non-mage stuff.
The big angels indeed either need a book around them (Valshalla especially) or should cover a weakness in your book. Samandriel is great for nonliving and Selesius is an amazing counter to flying. However, since almost all holy mages already have counters to undead and have flyers they don't fill any gaps for them. So I agree with Romeo that most holy mages are better off without them.
However, I do have a druid book with Selesius to push/counter flying and I used to have a forcemaster with Samandriel for necromancers and generally when she was action starved and had mana to spare.
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It's a good decent enough spawnpoint and paladin can just as much have a solid book with it as the cleric mages (imo much better than priest). With his access to ballista, war spells and armor he can react fast when rushed and he is the only mage that can intercept things to protect smaller creatures like archers (and easily guard with his armor) or the temple itself. In the long run he can use aura's as free buffs for all creatures in his zone so that's even better when you have many small creatures. If not by melee attacking, you can also gain valor by healing, intercepting, the occasional attack spell and by using your challange on creatures that will attack non-mage stuff.
The big angels indeed either need a book around them (Valshalla especially) or should cover a weakness in your book. Samandriel is great for nonliving and Selesius is an amazing counter to flying. However, since almost all holy mages already have counters to undead and have flyers they don't fill any gaps for them. So I agree with Romeo that most holy mages are better off without them.
However, I do have a druid book with Selesius to push/counter flying and I used to have a forcemaster with Samandriel for necromancers and generally when she was action starved and had mana to spare.
You make a lot of good points!
Some things I noticed.
1. If your intercepting, it means your in the archers zone, which means not hitting things most likely. Now you likely would intercept at the beginning then transition into attacking, but still note worthy imo.
2. Which of "swarm" level 1/2 creatures are actually good in a fight? I'm still waking up, but I don't remember many who are.
Of the ones I do remember
All of the level 1 clerics: Without HA, none of them are very good in a fight. More support
Monk: Same deal
Sharpshooter: Personally, I don't think the guys are that good. Range 0-1 is not good.
White cloaked knight: Again, not convinced. His stats make him a worse to.ber wolf, and who uses attack spells on them?
Red helm: He's pretty good, but I still don't really like how challenged interacts.
Light of Dawn: Very solid support that can actually help in a fight. No glaring issues.
Lowland unicorn: I have never played with this card so no thoughts.
The sweeping angel: I have never played with this card so no thoughts.
Did I forgot any other than Cass who needs no analysis. :)
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I didn't say you have to use minor creatures with a temple. You could also summon big guys from the temple (use the full action for meditating, remove curse or totally different other stuff). You could also only cast a creature every couple of turns.
White cloaked knight, with 4 attack dice and his ability I think you underestimate him. I see many creatures get the final blow with an attack spell. He's an amazing target for buffs too. Generally not the best if you see that the opponent has big creatures that would smack him down though. red helm is amazing but situational so not for every game. light of dawn is the most versatile unit. Daze can help you a ton. Asyran defender is good for a guard that can take a hit and the Noble Vanguard can move 2 + guard, attack and guard but will indeed not live very long mostly.. From what I see, you have many good options to choose from.
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Hmm, after reading this thread a few things come to mind:
1) Valshalla is a lot less susceptible to focus fire if she's being protected by Noble Vanguards. If they die catching a boulder she gets stronger :)
2) Cassiel casting Iguana Regrowth on your vanguards is pretty cheap and gives them some necessary staying power.
3) Iguana Regrowth (and other healing support spells) can trigger Disciple of Radiance.
4) Temple spawning Messenger of Bim-Shalla can keep up the pressure while getting in some clutch healing.
Happy book building.
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Hmm, after reading this thread a few things come to mind:
1) Valshalla is a lot less susceptible to focus fire if she's being protected by Noble Vanguards. If they die catching a boulder she gets stronger :)
2) Cassiel casting Iguana Regrowth on your vanguards is pretty cheap and gives them some necessary staying power.
3) Iguana Regrowth (and other healing support spells) can trigger Disciple of Radiance.
4) Temple spawning Messenger of Bim-Shalla can keep up the pressure while getting in some clutch healing.
Happy book building.
Interesting!
I'm a bit wary of spending 2 sbp/ 2+sbp on creatures that are supposed to die anyway.
A good opponent may just ignore the vanguards and port me/Valshalla out. Not fighting on my terms essentially. It's the main reason Temple High Guard isn't that great in my eyes.
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Guards loses flying.
Guards with intercept cannot take the hit from a flyer.
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Guards loses flying.
Guards with intercept cannot take the hit from a flyer.
Beat me to it Jack!
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Guards loses flying.
Guards with intercept cannot take the hit from a flyer.
Beat me to it Jack!
Guard with Valshalla. Problem Gone.
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Guards loses flying.
Guards with intercept cannot take the hit from a flyer.
Beat me to it Jack!
Guard with Valshalla. Problem Gone.
The thing is, in meele, they can then hit her. And you kind of want the vanguards to die to give her rath tokens, so IR on vanguards is questionable.
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The other big question is how many creatures do you want to run. 11-13/14 seems typical for a book like this, but more seems a bit much.
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You could run Gravikor :)
I just thought it might be an interesting idea. I have no clue whether or not it could become competitive.
Also, the Disciples of Radiance can die to fuel Valshalla as well. Iguana Regrowth makes it just that much harder to kill the Vanguards which gives you time for a later Valshalla.
If we're buffing troops to keep them around, I think I'd prefer Iguana Regrowth on Knight of the Red Helm since he's got 3 armor.
I could see an extremely fun team game in which a Paladin and a Straywood team up. Straywood runs life tree and Felella with all of those nice enchants and Paladin pumps out vanguards and red helms.
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You could run Gravikor :)
I just thought it might be an interesting idea. I have no clue whether or not it could become competitive.
Also, the Disciples of Radiance can die to fuel Valshalla as well. Iguana Regrowth makes it just that much harder to kill the Vanguards which gives you time for a later Valshalla.
If we're buffing troops to keep them around, I think I'd prefer Iguana Regrowth on Knight of the Red Helm since he's got 3 armor.
I could see an extremely fun team game in which a Paladin and a Straywood team up. Straywood runs life tree and Felella with all of those nice enchants and Paladin pumps out vanguards and red helms.
It's an idea for sure!
I think a paradox is with Valhalla, your opponent doesn't want to kill things not her. But killing her is really hard because of all the vanguards. So she more forces the opponent into having all bad decisions.
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This is what Schwegott said when I asked him about Paladin with Temple:
"Priestress and Paladin can be great at healing and keeping creatures alive. That works well when you have big creatures, that can soak up some damage without dying.
Priest on the other hand is better when you dont care about your creatures at all and focus on attacking. Also the Holy Avenger is cheaper with lower creature levels.
So my conclusion is: Some bigger creatures for Priestress and Paladin, several minor creatures for Priest.
But ... that only counts when you play a creature Spawnpoint with all of them. It'S a different situation when you play with a Forge, because you need your mages full action to summon a creature. I can be a waste to use it for only a minor level 1 creature."
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It's also worth noting you can't really intercept for your archers unless you personally are in their zone. So not much melee buffs lol. Or meleeing at all. :o
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So after doing some more testing and talking with Werekingdom, I have some new thoughts on the Paladin.
1. So looking at his abilities
1a. Challenge supports getting in the face and smashing things. This seems to imply that you want a couple buddies to do the initial dmg, then finish them off and get benefits through signet of the dawnbreaker.
1b: However, his auras seem to get better the more creatures you have. And if you look at cards he has easy acsess to,
fortified position, temple of meravaran, temple of the dawnbreaker, etc, you can see he has a TON of good "Army support" cards.
So I'm thinking a good paladin might build up a small army with a mix of both sizes of knights with some angels (cass + guardien most likely), then use all his area buffs to support them and MURDER things.
The priestess does the best straight temple build and the priest can do temple then be more "aggressive" (bc of HA INSANE effect on low level creatures, he also cares less about them dying imo). The paladin can support his "swarm" better than the other two Holy mages imo.
Thoughts?
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I think those are valid and interesting perspectives and thoughts about the paladin. The logic is sound and the theory is developing nicely. I'm personally interested in how you implement those theories into a book and the tactics involved. Have you tried much of this out? Which creatures/ openings/ support spells have helped accomplish what you lay out above? What has been detrimental or tough to deal with when trying to implement this in a match?
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I think those are valid and interesting perspectives and thoughts about the paladin. The logic is sound and the theory is developing nicely. I'm personally interested in how you implement those theories into a book and the tactics involved. Have you tried much of this out? Which creatures/ openings/ support spells have helped accomplish what you lay out above? What has been detrimental or tough to deal with when trying to implement this in a match?
Thanks!
So essentially, I made a book last night that I'll post when I'm at home, but it focuses on medium creatures while then transitioning to bigger guns like angels and knights.
I think the current book runs 1-2 vanguards, 2 light of dawns, 2 KOW, 2 Angels, Ehren, 2 clerics, monk, messenger bim, and potentially a red helm or white cloaked knight. And I might have the legendary archer from pvs (can't spell her name lol)
Well it makes sense. While you get lots of valor with the ring on by killing creatures fast, the more creatures you have, the stronger the auras become. And the Paladin has good acsess to "Swarm" support like the healing song, temple of meravaran, dawn's bastion, some war commands, radient breastplate, fortified position song of love, etc. He also has good access to help his mitigate the dmg he takes when he most likely protects his creatures with Temple of the Dawnbreaker, Divine Reversal, Glancing Blow, Brace Yourself (although every mage has equal access to it bc it's novice), and eye for an eye for doing the dmg you take right back (and you have easy access to healing)
I've only played the book once and it was against one of biblo's necro's. The match actually went much better than expected (I killed the Idol and graveyard without being overrun by zombies) and had I put ANY armor on, I could have pulled it out. (The book was also missing purify, remove curse, and signet of the dawnbreaker at that point.)
I'm a bit worried about potential mana issues and which creatures to run. Red helm I really don't like bc of strongest interactions, but he's still pretty good. I already mentioned why I dislike White Cloak Knight. However, you need some of the five main eight mana creatures for holy (Red helm, White Cloak Knight, Light of Dawn, Defender, and Vanguard). Personally my ranking of them is LOD, Vanguard, Defender, Red helm, White cloak knight, but I need to test the last three a bit more.
It's also important to have at least one and likely two eight mana creatures so you can quick deploy from the banner if needed. In my SWAT paladin, I never cast the banner bc all my creatures outside of Ehren were nine mana or more; I never had the mana to cast anything from the banner even if I did cast it (unless I let it build up which doesn't really fit that book.)
The priestess is actually better with a few bigs and a forge imo (paladin is right behind). This is because she can heal her troops more effectively and is better at "defensively" supporting most troops. She is also the best at "pure" temple because of the higher channeling and abilities/cards that combo well with her. The priest can go with a forge or temple, but I think how Coshade uses him is spot on. The priest cares less about supporting the creatures and is more alright if they die than the other two holy mages. Since HA in INSANE on most level 1-2 Holy creatures, he can just reapply it for very little mana.
The Paladin is the best at supporting an army imo. His auras are get better with the more creatures you have and as already stated, he has a TON of ways to not only defensively support them, but offensively as well (meraveran, auras, bastion can do both, radiant can do both, etc).
An army is not a swarm imo. An army is made up of for the most part strong creatures that are worth buffing (individually or as a mass). Swarms are for the most part made up of much more fragile and are often not as worth supporting each creature (or even any of them really.)
So the priestess is the best at a "pure" temple build and few big with a forge, priest is the best with smaller creatures that go with HA, and the Paladin is the best at "army" play.
So all in all, many people think the paladin should be this rush mage who banner rushes and kills you by turn 6/7 or something like that. Or a SWAT team. Those can work pretty well, but I actually think going with an "army" is the best way to go. You get more use out of your auras and the paladin has the best ways to support an "army" of any Holy Mage in my eyes.
Once I figure out what creatures/how many to run and how to manage mana issues, I think it could be a pretty good book.
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You could also become the ultimate zone killer. Set up fortified position, conquer one zone, shift enchantment it, rinse and repeat.
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ב"ה
My temple paladin bring the temple on turn1 and gear up for melee. On turn 3 I bring a level 3 buddy (usually a Temple High Guard). since my melee build bring most of the heavy equipment on turns 4-7, usually I just cast clerics on turns 5 and 7. Then I bring a 2nd or 3rd level creature for reinforcement every other round (sometimes I wait an extra round or two to bring a bigger creature).
It is sort of a melee+reinforcements build :)