Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Reddicediaries on February 10, 2017, 07:00:42 AM
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At first glance, the druid and her plants seem very weak to fire. However if you actually think about it, 1 fireball already puts you behind MANA wise since snappers and lasher's are so cheap. And even 8+ dice fireballs are not guaranteed to kill the plants. The ring and gloves of skill help this, but those can easily be dissolved or dispelled.
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Druid is not weak to fire since she has all level 1 water spells in school. Thus she can easily get rid of burns and protect herself with waterfall cloak.
However, If the warlock has creatures with a fire attack, they all can roll +2 dice against plants. Lash of hellfire (or adramelech warlock base melee attack) is also getting a nice boost in combination with often used cards like fireshaper ring.
I think druid/warlock are opposite poles with each having counters against each other. This creates pretty interesting interactions. Both mages rely a lot on passive healing too. (regenerate, vampirism, ..)
Just as necro/priest(ess) feel like opposite poles. Holy school has a TON of +2 vs undead and high armor creatures but the necromancer has deathlock, poisoned blood, tainted, idol of pestilence, and other stuff that goes right through a knight's armor.
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I think druid/warlock are opposite poles with each having counters against each other. This creates pretty interesting interactions. Both mages rely a lot on passive healing too. (regenerate, vampirism, ..)
Just as necro/priest(ess) feel like opposite poles. Holy school has a TON of +2 vs undead and high armor creatures but the necromancer has deathlock, poisoned blood, tainted, idol of pestilence, and other stuff that goes right through a knight's armor.
Meanwhile Siren vs Druid...
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I think druid/warlock are opposite poles with each having counters against each other. This creates pretty interesting interactions. Both mages rely a lot on passive healing too. (regenerate, vampirism, ..)
Just as necro/priest(ess) feel like opposite poles. Holy school has a TON of +2 vs undead and high armor creatures but the necromancer has deathlock, poisoned blood, tainted, idol of pestilence, and other stuff that goes right through a knight's armor.
Meanwhile Siren vs Druid...
Siren is really really bad vs druid.
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My experience tells me Druid is at a big disadvantage vs Warlocks. Sure, Druid has some hydro spells and has new ways to cheaply get rid of Burn tokens (e.g. Extinguish, Raincloud, Meredia's Blessing), but how many is she typically running? Meanwhile, most plants have Flame +X, whereas few demons have Hydro +X (although Battle Forge and Fire Elemental don't want to see a Druid across the table). Also, Warlocks often run Deathlock, and that negates all the Regen that a Druid and her plants depend on. I don't think I've ever seen a Druid win an Arena match against a Warlock when the Warlock has played Deathlock.
Generally speaking,
Plant (Druid) > Water (Siren) > Flame (Warlock) > Plant (Druid)...
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I see two main advantage for warlock: the fire attacks in permanents (creatures and equipment), and the unmatched ability to kill the treebond at the beginning of the game.
Sure, killing the tree may be more expensive than the tree itself at first glance, but I use to play druid and you don´t see it that way from the green side.
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Druid is not weak to fire at all. It is actually quite hard to burn down the tree. It regenerates quickly and damage from it can be moved to the mage, via treebond. This means it has Regenerate 4 effectively. Also if the warlock is not directing fire at the mage and focusing on the tree then this is also a win for for the druid.
This is very much like Surging Wave vs Battle Forge. You are damned if you do and damned if you do not.
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Akiro's favor and Hawkeyes with swells might be better against forge imo. Surging wave x2 alone only does about 4 damage to forge on average.
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Akiro's favor and Hawkeyes with swells might be better against forge imo. Surging wave x2 alone only does about 4 damage to forge on average.
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I disagree. 12 dice for 2 surging waves. Surging wave has 3 dice and Battleforge has Hydro +3. Each dice does 0.5 damage on average so thats perfect for Battle Forges 6 Life. I have easily taken one out with a really well rolled Surging wave, but on average it dies with 2 Surging waves.
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Druid is not weak to fire at all. It is actually quite hard to burn down the tree. It regenerates quickly and damage from it can be moved to the mage, via treebond. This means it has Regenerate 4 effectively. Also if the warlock is not directing fire at the mage and focusing on the tree then this is also a win for for the druid.
This is very much like Surging Wave vs Battle Forge. You are damned if you do and damned if you do not.
This argument doesn't make sense to me. If not fire, then what is a Druid/tree weak against? Trees have Flame +X. It's going to take more Hurl Boulders than Fireballs to take one down. Adramelech is a better tree killer than a Steelclaw Grizzly. And as stated above, a tree can't regenerate with Deathlock in play. Even without Deathlock, Fireball + Flamblast in a single round should take out a Vine Tree, and a Druid only gets to Treebond once.
As for the Surging Wave (or Swell) discussion, an average roll will give you 3 regular and 3 critical damage vs the Forge. 2x Swell should do it on average, and that's 2 quick actions and 8 mana.
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As for the Surging Wave (or Swell) discussion, an average roll will give you 3 regular and 3 critical damage vs the Forge. 2x Swell should do it on average, and that's 2 quick actions and 8 mana.
Versus the 1 quick action and 7 mana to create. Sure take it down, I may not put up another one but you are an action down, and that's two actions also not used productively. I am making you play my game, and in control builds that is exactly what I want for you to do.
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As for the Surging Wave (or Swell) discussion, an average roll will give you 3 regular and 3 critical damage vs the Forge. 2x Swell should do it on average, and that's 2 quick actions and 8 mana.
Versus the 1 quick action and 7 mana to create. Sure take it down, I may not put up another one but you are an action down, and that's two actions also not used productively. I am making you play my game, and in control builds that is exactly what I want for you to do.
That might be true for the forge in many cases, but it's different for the tree. A druid without her tree is only half a druid. She loses so many benefits.
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[mwcard=MW1J04]Battle Forge[/mwcard] costs 8 mana, so 2x Swell is same mana cost, albeit you would be 1 action behind if you take it out. Conversely, if you don't take out the Forge immediately, you'll quickly find yourself down several more actions and mana. Most books running Forge would ideally like to get 6+ uses out of it, and if you leave it alone, you might be paying a much bigger price than 1 quick action.
As others have mentioned, taking out a Treebonded Vine Tree is worth a lot more than it's mana cost. It's more like taking out a Regrowth and a Mana Flower, along with the a powerful spawn point.
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The win against the Warlock is not won in the arena. It is won in the building of the book, in the hours put in honing the win conditions and making sure that if the Warlock is the major threat then the tools to defeat it exist for when my books faces this mage. The only time that the 120 points matter and you are locked into that configuration is once you play the game against someone. The arena is only 1/3 of the game for me.
So what does a warlock need to beat me? Positioning and Range. He has cheaper access to Deathlock as well. Is this a warlock only spell? No, so I prioritise options to destroy that over the warlock mage as that hurts me more.
Now as I said the Warlock needs Range 2 for his Fireballs and Range 1 for all his other attack spells. Range 1 is moot as ~90% of all effects "hit" at this range. Elephant Grass turns off anything other than range 0-1. Tanglevine stops a mage from achieving range 1. Tanglevine is also a Vine subtype spell, so the tree can cast them just as fast as the opponent rips them down. The counter to this is teleport. But that's not playing your game,it is playing my game. Every action/mana to counter my plan is an action not used on attack spells. Clever uses of Final QC positioning and deployment speed tanglevines to play the longer game that blunts the Warlocks attack.
Remember also a Tanglevine costs the Druid 1SBP vs 4SBP to teleport out of it. 4 Tanglevines, 3 force Pushes, 1 swamp and 1 Teleport = 14 SBP. That's all toolbox as well and has other applications other than just the Warlock.
This equates to the warlock getting a single fireball off and the tree can weather that. So to answer the question to if Druid is weak against fire. No, I think the druid is fine.
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The win against the Warlock is not won in the arena. It is won in the building of the book, in the hours put in honing the win conditions and making sure that if the Warlock is the major threat then the tools to defeat it exist for when my books faces this mage. The only time that the 120 points matter and you are locked into that configuration is once you play the game against someone. The arena is only 1/3 of the game for me.
So what does a warlock need to beat me? Positioning and Range. He has cheaper access to Deathlock as well. Is this a warlock only spell? No, so I prioritise options to destroy that over the warlock mage as that hurts me more.
Now as I said the Warlock needs Range 2 for his Fireballs and Range 1 for all his other attack spells. Range 1 is moot as ~90% of all effects "hit" at this range. Elephant Grass turns off anything other than range 0-1. Tanglevine stops a mage from achieving range 1. Tanglevine is also a Vine subtype spell, so the tree can cast them just as fast as the opponent rips them down. The counter to this is teleport. But that's not playing your game,it is playing my game. Every action/mana to counter my plan is an action not used on attack spells. Clever uses of Final QC positioning and deployment speed tanglevines to play the longer game that blunts the Warlocks attack.
Remember also a Tanglevine costs the Druid 1SBP vs 4SBP to teleport out of it. 4 Tanglevines, 3 force Pushes, 1 swamp and 1 Teleport = 14 SBP. That's all toolbox as well and has other applications other than just the Warlock.
This equates to the warlock getting a single fireball off and the tree can weather that. So to answer the question to if Druid is weak against fire. No, I think the druid is fine.
I agree with everything you said here. I think the Druid is among the very strongest mages in the game. But she has her incredibly easy/strong match-ups (Siren, especially a Water Elemental buddy book) and she has her tougher matchups (Warlocks).
It isn't just her Treebond. You mention how Tanglevine is really good for a Druid. And you mention that Teleport is needed for a Mage to get past Tanglevine. Well, a Warlock doesn't need to waste a Teleport; a Flameblast will take care of a Tanglevine... as might his Lash (if already equipped). And similarly for all the other plant creatures and conjurations: they all have Flame +X, so a Warlock is generally going to have an easier time tearing through them than any other Mage, whether it's using Attack spells, creatures with Flame attacks, or melee attacking with a Lash of Hellfire.
I'm not saying a Druid can't ever beat a Warlock. And a good Druid player will certainly have planned for Fire mages and Deathlock. Overall, a Druid might even be better than 50:50 in that matchup... but she's probably 60:40 against anybody else.
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Ranged Attacks can not target tanglevine. ;)
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Ranged Attacks can not target tanglevine. ;)
Oh, right. Well, you still have Lash and any creatures with Flame melee attacks.
My point can be summarized: Beldin's advice is true for Druid vs any Mage. (Wizard gets cheaper Teleports, but that's about it). If I'm going to choose a Mage knowing I'm up against Druid, it would be Warlock. If I'm playing Druid, the Mage I don't want to see is Warlock. Fire kills plants. I need to divert from my strategy in order to put out Burn markers or otherwise protect my plants more than I would against other mages using other damage types.
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Well, a Warlock doesn't need to waste a Teleport; a Flameblast will take care of a Tanglevine... as might his Lash (if already equipped). And similarly for all the other plant creatures and conjurations: they all have Flame +X, so a Warlock is generally going to have an easier time tearing through them than any other Mage, whether it's using Attack spells, creatures with Flame attacks, or melee attacking with a Lash of Hellfire.
To cast the lash that equates to a fireball in mana and actions, and my response is a mage wand(disarm). Also I am very happy to allow the warlock to use up his Range 1 spells in this fashion. This gives him less to chuck at me and my tree.
I'm not saying a Druid can't ever beat a Warlock. And a good Druid player will certainly have planned for Fire mages and Deathlock. Overall, a Druid might even be better than 50:50 in that matchup... but she's probably 60:40 against anybody else.
Well, as with all balanced games, we are playing a very complex game of rock:paper:scissors:lizard:spock. I am also not saying the druid is unbeatable and agree she is a solid tier 1 contender in the right hands.
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Rain Cloud
It is a thing.
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Overall, a Druid might even be better than 50:50 in that matchup... but she's probably 60:40 against anybody else.
I think druid (and necromancer) is often depicted as incredibly strong due to bad play of her foes. If you see a druid, you should adapt your opening and make sure you go for the tree as fast as possible. If you manage to do that, the druid is only a shadow of her former strength. Yes, the tree has regenerate 4, 2 armor and 12 life. But the key in killing the tree is making sure you kill it in 1 or at most 2 rounds. I know that physically getting to the druids tree is very hard, but staying in your corner and allowing the druid to spread her vines will make it nearly impossible to reach/kill the tree. Instead of casting your creatures in your starting zone, you should imo cast them as close to the tree as possible (or use other things than creatures to do the job) Those first couple of rounds are very important for movement.
Nevertheless, I agree that the druid is an amazingly strong mage. :P
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Instead of casting your creatures in your starting zone, you should imo cast them as close to the tree as possible
It always surprises me that people says its faster to run 2 and then summon instead of summoning in corner.
For the creature you summon it takes excately same amount of rounds to get to the other corner.
(BM's quick summon is the exception. And doing this for many rounds vs druid also. But summoning round 1 vs double run and then summon round 2 = same).
When that it said... can you please elaborate on how you kill the tree early.
Is it:
19
Run 2
F/D hawkeye -2
17
26
Reveal hawkeye -1
Move + Fireball -8
Fireball -8
9
Or are there better ways?
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I didn't mean run 2 and summon but run 3-5 and summon. The difference is that in the beginning the vines are not yet deployed and the druid has not gained full control over the arena yet. After a couple of rounds she will most likely make sure that your creatures are hindered and tanglevined so it becomes more difficult to get closer.
How, depends on the mage. I would probably:
Holy: Get close fast and deploy big guys close by. Preffered flying creatures
Warlords: depending on the book try conquer or any combination of Akiro's hammer, ballista, fireball, hurl boulder. I have multiple books where I include akiro's hammer and fireball purely for druids. I haven't tried this myself but the elephant could destroy it too. Run close, spawn elephant, attack and finish with earth spells.
T1: Run 2 + hammer
T2: use hammer + fireball, if needed a second attack spell.
Another way is to spawn barraks, get a close by (1 zone away) garrison post and use conquer for 8 mana with a spawned goblin. I've done this many many times. It kind of depends on the element of suprise though.
Warlock: Fire spells/ lash without creatures
Siren: No idea
Necromancer: Ignore the tree probably. Turtle battle.
Beastmasters: Get close and spawn big guy (or goat) + attack spell and/or spear/bow. I think they have the hardest time doing this probably.
Wizard: Wizard tower + attack spells or spawn guys and teleport them close by.
Forcemaster: Get close and either galvitar + Force hammer or 2x Force hammer. It's very expensive, but it's worth it.
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I think Sirens need to run a few Fireballs/Flameblasts specifically for Druid match-ups (and any other Hydro Immunity or Hydro -X they might encounter, even if it doesn't have Flame +X). She only pays the standard double for Fire school, and Sirens get a lot of staples at a discount (e.g. Dissolve, Swell, Surging Wave), so I find they're not particularly short on sbp's.
As for other non-Fire Mages, I have very few books that don't include at least 1x Force Hammer because I almost always encounter at least 1 Corporeal Conjuration or Ethereal object that I need it for.
Rain Cloud
It is a thing.
So is Meredia's Blessing, and it's even better than [mwcard=MWBG1J04]Raincloud[/mwcard]. And there's also Extinguish, Cure, Wand of Healing, even the Druid's own [mwcard=DNQ06]Mohktari's Branch[/mwcard]. There are lots of ways to remove Burn tokens.
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ב"ה
Most druids take at least one animal and not just plants. Steelclaw grizzlies, Timber wolves and Emerald tegus are probably the most common choices.
Rain Cloud
It is a thing.
So is Meredia's Blessing, and it's even better than Rain Cloud. And there's also Extinguish, Cure, Wand of Healing, even the Druid's own [mwcard=DNQ06]Mohktari's Branch[/mwcard]. There are lots of ways to remove Burn tokens. Doesn't do anything for Flame +X getting extra attack dice, though.
Well, removing burns is definitely a nice effect from the raincloud, but I think the more important issue about raincloud is the Flame -2 that it give to all objects in it's zone. None of the other things you mentioned give the trait Flame -2. It sort of negate the flame +2 that plants have, and make your non-plants (such as the mage) quite resistant to fire while in it's zone.
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ב"ה
Most druids take at least one animal and not just plants. Steelclaw grizzlies, Timber wolves and Emerald tegus are probably the most common choices.
Rain Cloud
It is a thing.
So is Meredia's Blessing, and it's even better than Rain Cloud. And there's also Extinguish, Cure, Wand of Healing, even the Druid's own [mwcard=DNQ06]Mohktari's Branch[/mwcard]. There are lots of ways to remove Burn tokens. Doesn't do anything for Flame +X getting extra attack dice, though.
Well, removing burns is definitely a nice effect from the raincloud, but I think the more important issue about raincloud is the Flame -2 that it give to all objects in it's zone. None of the other things you mentioned give the trait Flame -2. It sort of negate the flame +2 that plants have, and make your non-plants (such as the mage) quite resistant to fire while in it's zone.
Meredia's Blessing can remove 1 Burn condition per round (same as Raincloud), heal any living Object by 2 (which is about equivalent to Flame -2 against 1 attack, but also works in rounds when your plant isn't attacked), and doesn't have to be in the same zone as your plant(s). I'm not saying Raincloud isn't good; just that Meredia's Blessing is more versatile, isn't as easily avoided (e.g. your opponent can attack objects that aren't in the same zone as your Raincloud), is easier to protect (e.g. put it far away from the action), costs 2 less mana and 1 less sbp. Of course, you can run both - I do!
Back on topic: Versus any other damage type, you don't need a Raincloud. Versus Fire/Flame, you do. Thus, Fire/Flame is bad for Druids.
Is anybody here trying to argue that Druids are just as good against Fire/Flame as they are against any other particular Mage/damage type?
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How do you see the match up going?
If all the druid has is plant spell and the opponent brings 4 fireballs 6 flame blasts some tridents and infernos.
Dispel the Hawkeye your not going to out dispel a Warlock so remove their damage out put.
First thing I do is melt their fire ring. Fire has a lower damage scale without burns than boulders.
You cannot curse a tree so it doesn't get the normal fire +1.
Melt the mask if it comes out take away the little armor pierce they get.
Melt the lash and make they work to kill your tree with non-fire spells.
5 Dice fireballs when I remove 1 burn a turn is not that appealing. He can go after the plants but they are such a good sbp value go right ahead.
I rain cloud. I put on ARMOR.
If he brings out an elemental wand it gets melted.
I'm a druid I have orchids and dispels on tap.
If he is mindlessly tossing attack spells where are his creatures.
1 Guardian Angel is a world of hurt even if the push, pull, or entangle the angel.
It can be free quit easily.
They have to come within two spaces of tree to nuke that opens them to thorn Lashers and retaliation.
Druids are like Warlords if they want to take a square they can take a square.
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Is anybody here trying to argue that Druids are just as good against Fire/Flame as they are against any other particular Mage/damage type?
I'll argue that druid most favoured matchup beside male priest is the 2 warlocks.
And that sorta implies that i dont think she is weak (enough) to fire.
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Is anybody here trying to argue that Druids are just as good against Fire/Flame as they are against any other particular Mage/damage type?
I'll argue that druid most favoured matchup beside male priest is the 2 warlocks.
And that sorta implies that i dont think she is weak (enough) to fire.
First, I think Siren is an easier match-up than probably anything else.
Now, say Druid has initiative. Druid probably starts with bonded Vine Tree and some sort of mana advantage (e.g. Mana Flower or Druid's Leaf Ring (before Tree obviously) or Harmonize on tree or something). Warlock ends Round 1 by double-moving. Turn 2, Warlock QC's Deathlock behind himself, then moves to Druid's NC + Fireball to the Tree. Maybe Druid thought to QC a Raincloud in the opening phase before the Fireball hit, maybe not. Turn 3 upkeep, Druid can transfer 2 damage from Tree to Mage, but what's the plan to prevent Warlock from killing the Vine Tree this round?
- Wall of Earth? What if Warlock plans Force Hammer + Fireball, where the Force Hammer takes out the Wall before Fireballing the Tree? Yes, the Warlock uses a lot of mana and sbp's to take down your tree this way, but a Druid is very weak without Treebond.
- OK, how about Teleport the Warlock away and Tanglevine him? If he didn't opening-QC Astral Anchor in his own zone to prevent Teleport, then next round he probably has Dispel (for Druid's Astral Anchor) and Teleport.
- Guardian Angel? There are lots of ways around a Guard (Knockdown, Shrink, Tanglevine, Sleep).
At best, Druid is keeping Warlock away and continuing to transfer damage from Tree to Mage, and if/when Warlock gets back within striking range of the tree, there will be 4 or 6 damage on the Druid as a head-start. It's unlikely the Druid can both protect the Tree AND take out Deathlock before significant damage is done.
I haven't entirely thought this through, but this is just an outline of how a Warlock might approach a Druid. I'm sure I've made mistakes, and I'm sure a Druid has a few other options. But those options would be available against every other Mage, too, and those other Mages aren't as likely to be armed with Fireballs. I don't see how this is an easier match-up for the Druid than the other 11 non-Warlock non-Priest Mages.
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The plan is to start doing the vicory dance.
The warlock spend 9 mana on deathlock... this hits the warlock also - in particular the Arraxian crown warlock who can no longer benefit properly from blood reaper.
But even the Adramelech Warlock can also heal when attacking a creature with a burn with the new mask.
Both of them has Death link often.
Then the warlock spend 8 mana on a fireball and the tree aint dead yet (or you mean 2?). To be honost im not even gonna bother transfering damage to the druid.
Instead ill just make sure that i use the mana that is on the tree and accept that my mage will be deploying the plants from now on with a discount of 1 (ring) but still the option of using vines.
I would never even consider going for deathlock.
My druid opening is more or less always Ring and Vine tree.
This leaves the possibility of Guardian angel + Defend in round 2 which is not a bad move vs a double moving warlock - but i probaly wouldnt bother with the defend but rather get a flower out.
Again.. spend second fireball? fine with me - tree has to die then.
If he uses double fireball and deathlock and has initative round 2 then we are back to that i have to defeat him/her with mana advantage.
Remember that bleeds are difficult to remove when deathlock is in play. And thats a big part of the druids counter to aggro books - Start pulling them through bloodspine walls get some bleeds and pierce 2 attacks going.
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Is anybody here trying to argue that Druids are just as good against Fire/Flame as they are against any other particular Mage/damage type?
I'll argue that druid most favoured matchup beside male priest is the 2 warlocks.
And that sorta implies that i dont think she is weak (enough) to fire.
First, I think Siren is an easier match-up than probably anything else.
Now, say Druid has initiative. Druid probably starts with bonded Vine Tree and some sort of mana advantage (e.g. Mana Flower or Druid's Leaf Ring (before Tree obviously) or Harmonize on tree or something). Warlock ends Round 1 by double-moving. Turn 2, Warlock QC's Deathlock behind himself, then moves to Druid's NC + Fireball to the Tree. Maybe Druid thought to QC a Raincloud in the opening phase before the Fireball hit, maybe not. Turn 3 upkeep, Druid can transfer 2 damage from Tree to Mage, but what's the plan to prevent Warlock from killing the Vine Tree this round?
- Wall of Earth? What if Warlock plans Force Hammer + Fireball, where the Force Hammer takes out the Wall before Fireballing the Tree? Yes, the Warlock uses a lot of mana and sbp's to take down your tree this way, but a Druid is very weak without Treebond.
- OK, how about Teleport the Warlock away and Tanglevine him? If he didn't opening-QC Astral Anchor in his own zone to prevent Teleport, then next round he probably has Dispel (for Druid's Astral Anchor) and Teleport.
- Guardian Angel? There are lots of ways around a Guard (Knockdown, Shrink, Tanglevine, Sleep).
At best, Druid is keeping Warlock away and continuing to transfer damage from Tree to Mage, and if/when Warlock gets back within striking range of the tree, there will be 4 or 6 damage on the Druid as a head-start. It's unlikely the Druid can both protect the Tree AND take out Deathlock before significant damage is done.
I haven't entirely thought this through, but this is just an outline of how a Warlock might approach a Druid. I'm sure I've made mistakes, and I'm sure a Druid has a few other options. But those options would be available against every other Mage, too, and those other Mages aren't as likely to be armed with Fireballs. I don't see how this is an easier match-up for the Druid than the other 11 non-Warlock non-Priest Mages.
A Siren with only Water Attacks and no creatures maybe.
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I would say yes the Druids plants and tree are weak to fire.
If a Druid runs:
Kralathor
4 x Raptor Vine
4 x Vine Snapper
4 x Thornlasher 24 spellbookpoints
and is up against
2 x Fire Elemental
4 X Flaming Hellion 24 spellbookpoints
Nothing stops a Warlock from bringing more creatures with a flame attack.
Yes the Druid is weak to fire, if she doesnt have any counters to Fire Creatures.
Druid has a pretty big spellbook and lots of counters to fire. If she include those counters and others like the Guardian Angel + defend or other creatures common in Druid books like Timber Wolfs/Grizzlies she counters her weakness to fire at least to some degree.
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A Siren with only Water Attacks and no creatures maybe.
Plants are generally Hydro Immune, so most Water attacks (except Acid Ball) are useless. Also, Water Elemental is useless.
Plants don't Bleed, so that nerfs the Deptonnes and Undead Pirates. Ditto for Coral Reef wall.
Plants can't be moved, so Merrens aren't any good. Ditto for Bed of Urchins. Similarly, most of Grapple is irrelevant (aside from the attack dice modifier). And the most popular songs don't do much because Plants can't move, and Uproot isn't mandatory.
So... with rare exception, Sirens have few tricks available vs Druid.
Of course, a Siren can play out-of-school attacks, but you're already suggesting Fire spells are no good vs Plants, so I don't know what you have in mind. As far as I can tell, you're just trolling at this point.
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Trollololololol :)
Jk
Just wanted to chime in. Continue on
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Trollollollolloll
Uh, we don't want to call anyone a troll yet. I do not believe littlenog is trolling, maybe his points just got mixed up or something.
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Its a joke :)
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Its a joke :)
Ah, ok
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I was not trolling.
I am saying a Siren has plenty of weapons at her disposal.
A Siren fighting a druid is like a warlock fighting a Necromancer.
Druid by design and creatures are just water resistant and Necromancers are poison resistant that is all.
The picture painted in the quoted post was to me from a water aspect. Which is why I commented if she was a water only Siren.
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ב"ה
I was not trolling.
I am saying a Siren has plenty of weapons at her disposal.
A Siren fighting a druid is like a warlock fighting a Necromancer.
Druid by design and creatures are just water resistant and Necromancers are poison resistant that is all.
The picture painted in the quoted post was to me from a water aspect. Which is why I commented if she was a water only Siren.
Well, it is true that most druids don't take Togorath, but if aggressive sirens will become too common they might start including him. Or if they want some cheaper counter to aggresive sirens they could go for a couple of Leviathan scale armor, since it is also in school for them. The eagleclaw boots most druids take anyway are also a pretty good counter since being unmovable make you ignore pushed and turn slams into dazes.
But let say that one druid only have barkskin (which is a cantrip) and his tree for his defence, and that the siren has her ring and hawkeye for her offence. If the siren attack one round with 2 attacks of 4 dice (when she don't have initiative) and one round with 2 attacks of 5 dice, then against a mage with armor 2 that heals 4 every upkeep phase it will take the siren way too much time to kill the druid.