Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: sIKE on May 17, 2013, 10:49:04 AM
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While replying to a topic on FB about the newly spoiled Drain Soul card, I was discussing about the Tainted condition and was pointed out that though the damage they cause can not be healed they can be removed by Wand of Healing or the Priestess Restore spell. The question then becomes once the Tainted condition is removed does the damage it caused remain or is it also removed as a part of the condition removal.
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Losing Life is not damage, so when the Tainted condition is removed the Life is restored. Life Loss and Life Gain modify the Mages base Life value in the same way the + Armor does, meaning that the base value is constantly being checked against +/- modifiers to arrive at it's current value. When Damage = current Life total, you are dead.
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But we have seen a token of Tainted. There is no "Life -3". There is "3 this can't be healed".
It's too complicated for a small token reducing life.
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Looking at the token it appears to be a poison condition (skull and cross bones)
(http://gamebugle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/mage-wars-tokens.png)
I did not think that it was Life -3 but 3 Damage. Very interested to see what the ruling is.....
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It is 3 Damage and if the condition is removed then the effect of the Token would be removed which would remove the Damage.
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It is 3 Damage and if the condition is removed then the effect of the Token would be removed which would remove the Damage.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that if the token is removed then the damage is healed? Or just saying that if the token is removed then the damage can then be healed normally?
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It may look like a green Damage marker but Tainted is not damage and should not be confused with damage.
Taunted is a Poison condition that causes "Life -3". For most purposes this is similar to "3 Damage" as a creature with 6 health is equally dead whether it's taken 6 damage, or 2 Tainted tokens, or 1 Tainted and 3 Damage. However, they are healed in different ways.
If you have the ability to remove Poison conditions (Purify, Healing wand, etc.) you can remove Tainted. When this happens, your Life goes back to normal and you haven't taken any damage. This costs 3 mana per Tainted token so the mana-efficiency is similar to healing damage.
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I came up with idea behind tainted damage a few months back.
Yes it is a condition that can be healed (this is on purpose) it lower the max health of the affected object by 3 per counter (This effect is not damage) so if you look at the Giant Wolf Spider http://magewars.com/jsite/newsblog/item/144-conquest-of-kumanjaro-spell-tome-expansion if does 2D damage and can cause tainted so 1 bite can be up 4 damage and 1 tainted mark kill off a 7 health or less creature.
Think of tainted as a festering wound that will not heal ( I based it off a necrotic wounds if you do not know what necrosis is google it.)
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it lower the max health of the affected object by 3
I'm disappointed :(
What happens when we remove a tainted token from creature with finite life?
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That would hurt and gives the opposing mage a reason to remove them....very nice idea! Why the disappointment?
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What happens when we remove a tainted token from creature with finite life?
We'd need to be pretty specific about what the actual effect of the token is for instances like this.
It isn't actually healing and it isn't increasing the Life of the model just removing a decrease to its life. We'd need a nicely worded FAQ for it.
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Is it too late to hope that Tainted comes with a rule that prevents the tokens from being removed from a creature with Finite Life?
It'd be weird for a tainted token -- which represents damage that is harder to heal than normal -- to ever be removable in situations where healing is otherwise forbidden. That would make Tainted strictly worse than standard damage in a book that is using Deathlock or Poisoned Blood. That's some bad anti-synergy for what should be thematically aligned cards.
But it all works great if there is a rule that prevents removing Tainted tokens from creatures with Finite Life.
Also, there should probably be a rule that says "removing a decrease is the same as an increase", just for simplicity's sake. Why have a carefully and elaborately worded faq when you can make a straightforward rule? This would be the same as the rule that Fast and Slow cancel each other, or the way MtG's +1/+1 tokens cancel -1/-1 tokens.
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Also, there should probably be a rule that says "removing a decrease is the same as an increase", just for simplicity's sake.
Two issues that I have
1) It makes Tainted and Finite Life a really nasty combo. Perhaps too nasty
2) I think it is actually simpler if Tainted had no interaction with Finite Life and that the removal of the condition was not affected by Finite Life.
In regards to it then not being as effective against creatures with Finite Life, that would, at least to me, be consistent with what the condition is meant to be. Its difficult to taint something that can't be effected by healing.
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And what about bleed condition? Can I remove it from living creature with finite life trait by Minor Heal?
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And what about bleed condition? Can I remove it from living creature with finite life trait by Minor Heal?
I would say yes. In the same way that the condition can be removed by spell/ability paying the removal cost. You wouldn't get the benefit of the damage healed by the spell but the condition would be removed.
It might be more thematic to limit these actions for creatures with Finite Life but then the game starts to get bogged down with exceptions and clarifications and I for one would like to see that avoided.
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From the v2 Codex:
Finite Life
This creature cannot heal, regenerate, or gain life. If the creature gained Life before it gained this trait, it keeps that Life but cannot gain additional Life. All Nonliving objects have Finite Life.
I can not see any reason that Tainted condition not having an interaction with the Finite Life trait. While it is quite nasty if you have the condition you would want to work very hard to not have this condition removed while having this trait.
Might make a Warlock think twice about dropping a Deathlock.
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I dont think itd work for removing bleed. Bleed is removed if you opt to do so in place of healing a point of damage, but since Finite Life prevents the 1 point of healing, you don't have it to use to meet the bleeds criteria.
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I dont think itd work for removing bleed.
It would have been too strong combo (bleed + finitelife).
Bleed is removed if you opt to do so in place of healing a point of damage, but since Finite Life prevents the 1 point of healing, you don't have it to use to meet the bleeds criteria.
Maybe there is another order of actions: prevention after opt.
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Well I assume normal means of removing conditions would work as normal during finite life (wand of healing/priestess/healing spring) but just the secondary removal option of purgiing via normal healing seems like it would be stopped.
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Two issues that I have
1) It makes Tainted and Finite Life a really nasty combo. Perhaps too nasty
2) I think it is actually simpler if Tainted had no interaction with Finite Life and that the removal of the condition was not affected by Finite Life.
In regards to it then not being as effective against creatures with Finite Life, that would, at least to me, be consistent with what the condition is meant to be. Its difficult to taint something that can't be effected by healing.
I'll have to defer to you on the power level issue; I haven't played as Damage over Time Warlock or played against Necro at all, so I have no real way to judge. You're right that it's a potential combo, but it's not that good with the two tainted cards I've seen so far.
Drain Soul is terrible with Deathlock, because you don't get any of the life gain. The combo with the Spider is okay? The spider doesn't seem like it fits any current Nature book archatypes that would want to give up healing, but maybe a Dark book that currently plays Basilisk might want it.
The situation I'm imagining is a Necro with a creature that taints and does damage, and also a Deathlock. Against an opposing Wizard, neither the taints or the damage are likely to be healable. If the wizard packs a wand of healing, though, the damage won't be healable, and the taints ... might be? Priestess, of course, is a special case.
My suspicion is that "compatable" Deathlock would make Tainted as good as Deathlock makes damage. If Tainted is priced more cheaply than damage, I can see how that might be a problem.
To put it another way, Deathlock already makes normal damage better than vanilla Tainted (mostly. Tainted ignores armor, but is a poison effect.). If it Deathlock also brings Tainted "up to par," is that too good?
Of course, it's possible that Deathlock is the problem card, not the tainted mechanic, but we've never had the tools to make it matter, before. I mention this because it seems like Deathlock makes Bleed as good as Deathlock makes Rot, and that's a clear power upgrade that's more likely to be a balance problem. (Not saying it is, just that it seems more powerful.)
As for your second point... man, I don't know. I would expect that a card that prevents me from gaining life would, in all cases, prevent my life from going up. Maybe I just have that expectation from playing too much MtG?
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Our apologies for any confusion.
Tainted: Removing Tainted is not affected by Finite Life. It is not considered healing (even though removing the poison has the effect of removing 3 damage).
Bleed: You can remove Bleed by converting one point of healing to remove the Bleed. If there is no healing, then you have nothing to convert. Therefore, Finite Life does affect Bleed in this manner.
We have added these notes to the Kumanjaro rulebook for its final printing.
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Good, I think that's the best mix of making sense with existing abilities while still being easily trackable.
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Arcanus,
Is this a one off ruling or does Bull Endurance fall into the same category?
Tahnks!
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Cool, thanks!
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Hi sIKE,
Answering your question above sir; If the creature gained the Life before Finite Life comes into play, it may keep that Life. If it gains the Life after Finite Life came into play, then it does not gain Life. So, it just depends upon when the Bull Endurance was played in relationship to that creature gaining Finite Life.
Hope that helps!
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Ahh, Very nice way to slice the knot! I like it!