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Author Topic: Order of stuff happening during upkeep  (Read 4875 times)

iNano78

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Order of stuff happening during upkeep
« on: February 09, 2016, 08:52:58 AM »
Had a pretty crazy Domination match last night.  Tried to use a Necromancer to kill everybody rather than going for V'tar - unsuccessfully, but it was fun!  Is the following legal?

Upkeep phase begins:
- [mwcard=MW1J11]Idol of Pestilence[/mwcard] deals 1 poison damage to all living creatures.
- a [mwcard=MW1C04]Bitterwood Fox[/mwcard] dies from this poison damage.
- 1 mana token (equal to the Fox's level) gets placed on my [mwcard=DNJ04]Graveyard[/mwcard].
- 1 skull token gets placed on my [mwcard=DNJ01]Altar of Skulls[/mwcard] ("whenever an enemy corporeal creature dies...")
- this is the 8th skull token... so Altar of Skulls now becomes active, and 2 poison damage is dealt to all living creatures.
- several other creatures die.  No mana gets placed on Graveyard since it's "the first time each round." More skulls get placed on Altar of Skulls, but they don't matter since nothing happens beyond 8 and there are currently no effects can remove skulls, for instance.

Is that fine?  Or did Altar miss its opportunity to deal poison damage because that window had passed (e.g. the same window when Idol triggered)?

Similarly, if in a future round, the 2 damage from Altar of Skulls is sufficient to kill several creatures simultaneously, can I choose which one (e.g. the highest level) when placing mana on my Graveyard? Or does the player with Initiative get to decide the order in which creatures die?
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exid

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Re: Order of stuff happening during upkeep
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2016, 01:39:00 AM »
during your upkeep you choose the order.
you choosed to count the counter on your altar at the end of the phase! OK.

for the next turn, the simultaneousity is problematic... the opponent should choose for his creature, but he can't choose if it's simultaneou...
...
 :D
you should add the levels and put the total mana on your graveyard!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 01:41:33 AM by Exid »

ringkichard

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Re: Order of stuff happening during upkeep
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2016, 07:30:01 AM »
This is a detailed area of the rules and I have 2 min: Object's controllers chose the order of events affecting their objects. Conflicts are chosen by player with initiative.
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exid

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Re: Order of stuff happening during upkeep
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2016, 09:28:10 AM »
This is a detailed area of the rules and I have 2 min: Object's controllers chose the order of events affecting their objects. Conflicts are chosen by player with initiative.

The initiative player chooses then the order for the simultaneous deaths in the 2nd exemple above.

ringkichard

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Re: Order of stuff happening during upkeep
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2016, 09:34:31 AM »
Long story short: What you did is legal and looks optimal. You don't have to resolve the Graveyard trigger before the Idol, so you can wait until other creatures die before you add the mana to Graveyard. But! the trigger is still from the first creature to die, the fox, so no matter what else you kill before adding the Graveyard mana, you can only ever gain 1.
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ringkichard

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Re: Order of stuff happening during upkeep
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2016, 09:00:58 AM »
Regarding the second question:
You control the [mwcard=DNJ01]Altar of Skulls[/mwcard]. So, here's a rules recap:

1a. You decide the order of events affecting your objects. So when an enemy corporeal creature is destroyed, if there is another triggered ability that affects a object you control (like [mwcard=DNJ04]Graveyard[/mwcard]) you decide which event you want to happen first, and therefore whether you place the skull token first or second.

1b. If the destruction of that enemy corporeal creature also affects objects your opponent controls, your opponent determines the order of that effect *only* in comparison to other events whose order she controls.  She may choose any of her events to occur next, but may only choose from the events she is entitled to control (because those events affect her own objects).

1c. The player with initiative chooses the order of events when there is a conflict. So you decide the first thing you want to happen to your stuff, your opponent chooses what she wants to happen to her stuff, and because you have both chosen for something to happen, the player with initiative chooses one to happen. This technically occurs whenever both players have upkeep phase event they want/need to resolve, but only matters if those events can interact in some way.

1d. This process repeats for as long as there is a conflict. The player with initiative keeps choosing again and again between conflicting events until there are no further conflicts. This likely means that the player with initiative keeps choosing until one player or the other runs out of objects that need to be affected.

1e. If a single event affects objects controlled by both you and your opponent (e.g. transfers damage from a creature you control to a creature they control) the player with initiative chooses when that happens, as if it were an event that affected only his or her object.

1f. It's important to remember that neither player is required to declare an ordered list at the beginning of the upkeep phase. Both players are choosing events to occur *as they occur*, and the order in which those events happen becomes the order chosen. This means that players are free to change their minds about what they want to happen next depending on die rolls or choices made by other players.

1g. The is no specific rule that explains a procedure for revealing your choice. It's never mattered to me, but if it were important and I needed to make a rule, I'd suggest that the player with initiative may declare what his or her choice is last, after any opponents.

2a. So, back to [mwcard=DNJ01]Altar of Skulls[/mwcard]. Altar has a rule that is enforced "while altar has 8 or more skull tokens". This text isn't an if/then ability, so it's just a part of the game rules, not an event on its own and so not subject to having its order decided by anyone. It's either true or false, but no one decides when it happens. It's a consequence of the altar having 8 skulls, and it affects all creatures, but it is not a triggered event caused by putting the eighth skull on. You don't put the 8th skull on and then later give objects the effects caused by having 8 skulls.

2b. This is important because it means that the controllers of each and every living creature do not decide an order to give all those creatures finite life, one at a time. It happens all at once as a single consequence of the eighth skull event. If the 8th creature dies during the Upkeep phase, applying the 8th skull is a triggered event that is put in order by the Altar's player, and the Lifebond and Finite Life traits are applied as part of that event.

3a. Unlike its Finite Life ability, the final clause on [mwcard=DNJ01]Altar of Skulls[/mwcard] says, "[...] during the upkeep phase, each living creature receives 2 direct poison damage." This is handled similarly to what would happen if there were many creatures with  burn markers: this will be many separate events, one for each living creature. The order in which a player's creatures are affected is determined by that player, and in the event of conflict, the player with initiative chooses the order, as previously described.

3b. Remember that both players are choosing an event to occur from among those that affect their own objects, and then the player with initiative is choosing between the conflicting options. As long as there is a conflict, the player with initiative may repeatedly select the option provided by the opponent, ignoring her own events for as long as possible, but the order in which those the opponent's events are offered up for approval is the opponent's choice.

3c. Also remember that events that affect multiple players' objects are chosen as if they affected the objects of the player with initiative.

4a. Sometimes events that occur during the upkeep phase cause new events that will also occur during the upkeep phase.There is no rule requiring these new events to wait until all old events have happened. An event is an event, and all events are candidates for every choice that a player may make in the upkeep phase.

4b. So, if Altar of Skulls is killing multiple creatures, and it matters which is the first to die because that determines how much mana is put on Graveyard, we follow the rules above.

4c. What is likely to happen in practice depends on which player has Initiative. If you have initiative, and you have a high level creature that may die this upkeep (by burn, Altar, Curse, Force Crush, failure to pay Upkeep +X, etc.), you may choose to kill it before ever allowing one of your opponent's choices that would kill a creature she controls. If you do not have such a creature, your opponent will likely not do you any favors, and will chose to kill her smallest creature first.

4d. If your opponent has Initiative, she will likely never chose to kill a high level creature before the lowest creature she has access to. If she can kill her own Fox she'll likely do that. You can prioritize the deaths of your own higher level creatures over your lower level creatures, but she can put any of her creature deaths before yours, and in any order she chooses. She's free to apply any-and-all of her events before ever allowing one of yours.

EDITS -- cleaned up the grammar a little, now that I'm at a keyboard. Typing on glass is tricky. :)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 06:31:27 PM by ringkichard »
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iNano78

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Re: Order of stuff happening during upkeep
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2016, 09:28:34 AM »
{everything everyone could ever want to know about order of events}

Could somebody please give this man a banana?  Thanks!    :D
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Laddinfance

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Re: Order of stuff happening during upkeep
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2016, 10:32:57 AM »
{everything everyone could ever want to know about order of events}

Could somebody please give this man a banana?  Thanks!    :D

Done.

exid

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Re: Order of stuff happening during upkeep
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2016, 12:50:56 PM »
right... no simultaneity...