Additional strikes and bonuses like Vampiric following a successful Defense

[iNano78]

Had this come up the other day and couldn't find a definitive answer.

A creature declares an attack action that has a multiple strike (in this case, a Forcemaster + [mwcard=FWQ04]Galvitar, Force Blade[/mwcard] using her double strike full action, but could be a [mwcard=MW1C09]Darkfenne Hydra[/mwcard]'s triple strike or whatever) against a target with a defense (a mage with a [mwcard=FWQ01]Dancing Scimitar[/mwcard] in this case, but could be a [mwcard=MW1C22]Knight of Westlock[/mwcard] or whatever).  The Forcemaster reveals [mwcard=MW1E40]Vampirism[/mwcard] and [mwcard=MW1E01]Bear Strength[/mwcard] after declaring the attack but before the avoid attack step (which might be a mistake - e.g. poor choice of timing!*).  The defending mage rolls the Scimitar's defense successfully.  We ruled (correctly) that we skip to step 5 of the attack and carry out the second attack of the overall attack action - e.g. the defense only avoids that first attack, but the second attack would require a second defense, which wasn't present but might apply if the mage also had [mwcard=MW1Q04]Deflection Bracers[/mwcard] and/or [mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ04]Reflex Boots[/mwcard] and/or [mwcard=MW1E07]Cobra Reflexes[/mwcard], or against [mwcard=MW1C33]Sosruko, Ferret Companion[/mwcard], etc. 

The part we weren't sure about, however, was does the Vampiric and Melee +2 from the revealed enchantments apply to the second attack in this case?  In the Codex, Vampiric specifically says it applies only to an attack that deals damage, and only to the first attack (e.g. won't generally trigger on later attacks in a multiple attack, or to Battle Fury or Whirling Strike, etc).  Is that "the first attack that deals damage" - e.g. the second attack in this case, since the first we canceled due to a successful defense?  Ditto for the +2 melee?  Or are they wasted due to the first attack being neutralized?

* In hindsight, it seems the Forcemaster should have waited to see if the defense roll was successful or not, then revealed the enchantments after a failed defense roll / before the first successful attack's dice roll to get those effects with the first successful (and second, in this case) attack of the attack action.

[Coshade]

I think the melee would carry over, since you can choose when to apply the melee bonuses to an attack

[iNano78]

I think the melee would carry over, since you can choose when to apply the melee bonuses to an attack

Do you get to choose?

The rules and codex supplement (FAQ) currently says:

Modifying Attack Dice

There are many traits which modify dice, including Melee + X, Ranged +X, Charge +X, Aegis X, etc. Melee +X and Ranged +X make attacks of the given type made by the creature that has them more powerful.

In contrast, Damage Type +X (e.g. Flame +X and Lightning +X) make attacks made against the creature with the trait more powerful.

In most cases, these traits ONLY modify the number of attack dice rolled, and do not affect or modify the Effect die roll, unless they specifically say they modify the Effect die roll.

In most cases traits only affect the first attack of an attack action. For example, a Darkfenne Hydra, enchanted with Bear Strength, uses a full action to make a Triplestrike melee attack action. It will make 3 separate individual attacks against the same target, but only the first attack will gain the extra 2 attack dice granted by Bear Strength.

The chart below shows all of these traits, and which affect the Effect Die Roll. It also shows who has the trait (the attacker or the defender), and whether or not the trait affects multiple attacks of an attack action.

[chart]

The +X vs. Creature Type/Trait is a special attack trait that appears on a few creatures. It is treated similar to a Damage Type +X trait, in that it also affects the effect die roll.

For example; Samandriel, Angel of Light has +1 vs. Nonliving or Dark Creatures on her attack. She gains + 1 attack dice, and +1 on effect die rolls, whenever she uses this attack against a Nonliving or Dark creature.

Increasing the Attack Dice DURING an Attack Action

Some traits (such as Melee +X) state that “if the attack makes multiple attacks against the same or different creature, it gains the bonus only for the first attack it makes.” This wording is clarified to say; “if the creature makes multiple attacks during the same attack action, it gains this bonus only for the first attack it can make with this bonus.”

If a creature gains a bonus on one attack but then the bonus increases for a subsequent attack, on the next attack he may receive the additional bonus gained.

Example: A creature has a Sweeping attack and Rage +3, and has 2 Rage tokens on him, so he gains Melee +2. On his first attack, he gets +2 attack dice. If the target Counterstrikes and damages the attacker, the attacker will get another Rage token, so he will now be at Melee +3. On the second attack, the creature will get +1 attack die.

It seems most bonuses only apply to the first attack it can make with that bonus, as per the Rage token example... but is that the first attack they can apply to that is successful (e.g. not canceled by Block or a Defense, etc) or the first one period (e.g. the one that got Blocked or canceled by a Defense, meaning all the strikes that do go through are unmodified aside from Damage Type +X modifiers, etc)?  It seems to me that you can't apply +X melee to an attack where you don't roll attack dice.  Similarly, you can't get the effect of Vampiric if you skip the apply damage and effects step of the first attack.

[Coshade]

For some reason I thought you could choose for it to be your second attack if you wanted too. I may just be thinking of your example of only applying melee +x when you actually roll dice (as opposed to if it gets dodged).

[Schwenkgott]

A creature can never use more than one Defense against a single attack (Defenses on Page 24 Rulebook)

If the first strike is somehow handled by a defense additional strikes cannot be defended in any way.

[Zuberi]

Bonuses like Melee +X and Vampiric apply to the first attack of an attack action in which they are present. If that attack fails due to Daze or a successful defense, then you lose the bonuses of those traits. They do not carry over to subsequent attacks. The only way you can gain them on subsequent attacks is if they weren't present until those subsequent attacks happened. I hope this clarifies the sections of the Rules Supplement that you quoted.

@Coshade: You do not get to choose when you apply these bonuses. They must apply to the first attack during an attack action in which they are present for.

@Schwenkgott: There's a difference between attack and attack action. You can't use more than one defense against a single attack, but you can certainly use more than one during a single attack action. Thus, with doublestrike you're limited to just one defense against the first attack, and just one against the second attack, but both attacks can be defended against.

[Schwenkgott]

That's new to me. Thanks for the clarification.

[Coshade]

Awesome! Thanks for letting me know All the learning on this thread

[iNano78]

Thanks Zuberi and everyone else. That's actually how we ruled it on the spot - hence comments about bad choice of timing on the enchantment reveal - but we weren't 100% confident it was the right ruling. If bonuses could apply to the first successful attack, then defenses would effectively only work on the "unimproved" attacks of a multiple strike attack action, until there are none remaining, which wouldn't be as good compared to using it against a creature with only a single strike with bonuses. On the other hand, there is no (non-trivial) decision regarding when it's best to use a defense against a multi-striker: you should always use it against the first (most powerful) attack.

*edited on PC to fix iPhone autocorrects*