Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Erebus on August 31, 2015, 08:22:14 PM
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I remember seeing a post where someone mentioned a theoretical approved card list for Academy (what Arena cards could fit into Academy).
I'm not sure if this will happen since it requires competitive Academy players to purchase Arena while disturbing the single mage sale model already described by Arcane Wonders (Though these "Arena Essentials" could be included in a side expansion).
That said, it would be fun to create a list of cards at some point that could potentially be fun in Academy. I don't own Academy yet, but when I get it I'd love to try out some of my Arena cards just for enjoyment.
Is there any chance of an approved card list? I can understand reasoning for both perspectives.
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I made myself a list for this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pvltORyu6CV4DxvsvXCjxUQw9kREYz5qnacD_jfP1ME
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Wildhorn, I'd be interested in the inclusion/exclusion criteria? Just from an interest perspective, so like how'd you decide?
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As far as I know there is no such list and Arcane Wonders intentionally has not suggested a crossover. Academy is supposed to be a stand alone product which can be incorporated into Arena and Not the other way around.
The Arcane Duels interview with Brian Pope suggests that there may be a future "battlegrounds" type expansion that may pit these Academy mages against Arena or (fingers crossed) Archmages as a separate game mode, but to my knowledge there is no intention for Arena cards to be used in Academy.
If you were to want to experiment with your own variation, I would suggest selecting creatures that are level 2 or lower and do not have movement based abilities and that no creature or attack spell rolls more than 4 dice. For example, [mwcard=MW1C38]Timber Wolf[/mwcard] would wreck face in Academy at the top of the power curve given all of the buffs you could put on him for very cheap in Academy.
All positioning spells are kind of worthless since there is only one zone. Additionally, there is no space in the game for conjurations as a spell type so leave all of those home. On the other hand, cards that interact with Guard would be extremely good. Such as [mwcard=MWSTX2FFI06]Defend[/mwcard].
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There was an umm semi official comment somewhere that directly stated or implied (I can't remember which) that some arena cards would be useful in academy - which seems reasonable. I'll try and find it tonight.
The trouble is there hasn't really been any indication of what these spells might be, or how they'd be chosen. Level 1 and novice probably seem a likely start.
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I do not recall any?
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Hey guys,
I'm pretty positive there is no intention of Arena splicing into Academy. The term they've been using for Academy, I think, is forward compatable, so older mages can retain the tricks they learned back at school but not the other way around.
If you find something stating otherwise you should definitely shout it to the world.
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Tox (I believe it was him?) mentioned in one interview that he was sure that some smart person out there with time on their hands would come up with a list of Arena cards that would be balanced for Academy play.
As others have mentioned, these cards would not be officially compatible, it would be a "just for fun" type thing. I don't believe there are any plans to have Arena cards backwards compatible for use in Academy.
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Wildhorn, I'd be interested in the inclusion/exclusion criteria? Just from an interest perspective, so like how'd you decide?
Exclusion of every leve 5+ creatures because more often than not, they are way too powerful.
Exclusion of weapons because they are also too powerful for Academy.
Exclusion of things with a minimum range of 1 because everything in Academy are at range 0.
Exclusion of things that push, pull, or teleport, because you can't really do it.
Exclusion of spawnpoints and familiar because they are too powerful in the context of Academy.
Exclusion of creatures with a normal quick attack and a strong full attack since they can always use the full attack.
Exclusion of walls because there is only 1 zone.
Do not recommend flying creatures because there is none of them in Academy so far (even ones with wings do not fly).
Do no recommend creatures with Fast or Charge because these traits serve no purpose in Academy.
Do no recommend Zombies or Plants of any sort because their Slow/Rooted traits are irrelevant in Academy.
My only dilema are Zone Exclusive conjuration. I think most of them would be ok if both players could each have 1 of them out.
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Wildhorn, I'd be interested in the inclusion/exclusion criteria? Just from an interest perspective, so like how'd you decide?
Exclusion of every leve 5+ creatures because more often than not, they are way too powerful.
Exclusion of weapons because they are also too powerful for Academy.
Exclusion of things with a minimum range of 1 because everything in Academy are at range 0.
Exclusion of things that push, pull, or teleport, because you can't really do it.
Exclusion of spawnpoints and familiar because they are too powerful in the context of Academy.
Exclusion of creatures with a normal quick attack and a strong full attack since they can always use the full attack.
Exclusion of walls because there is only 1 zone.
Do not recommend flying creatures because there is none of them in Academy so far (even ones with wings do not fly).
Do no recommend creatures with Fast or Charge because these traits serve no purpose in Academy.
Do no recommend Zombies or Plants of any sort because their Slow/Rooted traits are irrelevant in Academy.
My only dilema are Zone Exclusive conjuration. I think most of them would be ok if both players could each have 1 of them out.
There are some exceptions. Academy includes creatures with full action attacks (Sailfin Hydra's double strike; Ankylodon's sweeping attack). Remember that full action attacks don't gain counter strike when guarding, so there is a difference that matters to Academy. Also regarding flying, it may not be too much of an issue given guarding and ranged attacks, which there will be more of when Warlock vs Priestess arrives e.g. fireball type spells).
Attack spells are particularly weak in Academy because otherwise you could end the game with a couple Hurl Boulders. In fact, all the attack spells in Academy are level 2 so far, making them more costly to include if you don't have training, even though the mana costs are reasonably low (comparable to level 1 attack spells in Arena).
As for creature attacks, Timber Wolf would be strong, but Razor Tusk is almost as good and costs less mana. In fact, mana cost matters a lot more in Academy since you can't really afford to waste any in such short matches. Timber Wolf is basically 2 turns of mana, so while he would be good, he may not be completely overpowered. Sure, you could give him Iguana Regrowth and Gator Toughness to basically make him indestructible... but then the Wizard just Exiles him or Staggers him anyway, so... buyer beware.
In other words, spells costing more than 8 aren't as useful in Academy. And investing a lot in a single creature is going to result in that creature getting nullified by the Wizard through Shrink/Weak/Stagger/Exile anyway.
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Wildhorn, I'd be interested in the inclusion/exclusion criteria? Just from an interest perspective, so like how'd you decide?
Exclusion of every leve 5+ creatures because more often than not, they are way too powerful.
Exclusion of weapons because they are also too powerful for Academy.
Exclusion of things with a minimum range of 1 because everything in Academy are at range 0.
Exclusion of things that push, pull, or teleport, because you can't really do it.
Exclusion of spawnpoints and familiar because they are too powerful in the context of Academy.
Exclusion of creatures with a normal quick attack and a strong full attack since they can always use the full attack.
Exclusion of walls because there is only 1 zone.
Do not recommend flying creatures because there is none of them in Academy so far (even ones with wings do not fly).
Do no recommend creatures with Fast or Charge because these traits serve no purpose in Academy.
Do no recommend Zombies or Plants of any sort because their Slow/Rooted traits are irrelevant in Academy.
My only dilema are Zone Exclusive conjuration. I think most of them would be ok if both players could each have 1 of them out.
There are some exceptions. Academy includes creatures with full action attacks (Sailfin Hydra's double strike; Ankylodon's sweeping attack). Remember that full action attacks don't gain counter strike when guarding, so there is a difference that matters to Academy. Also regarding flying, it may not be too much of an issue given guarding and ranged attacks, which there will be more of when Warlock vs Priestess arrives e.g. fireball type spells).
Attack spells are particularly weak in Academy because otherwise you could end the game with a couple Hurl Boulders. In fact, all the attack spells in Academy are level 2 so far, making them more costly to include if you don't have training, even though the mana costs are reasonably low (comparable to level 1 attack spells in Arena).
As for creature attacks, Timber Wolf would be strong, but Razor Tusk is almost as good and costs less mana. In fact, mana cost matters a lot more in Academy since you can't really afford to waste any in such short matches. Timber Wolf is basically 2 turns of mana, so while he would be good, he may not be completely overpowered. Sure, you could give him Iguana Regrowth and Gator Toughness to basically make him indestructible... but then the Wizard just Exiles him or Staggers him anyway, so... buyer beware.
In other words, spells costing more than 8 aren't as useful in Academy. And investing a lot in a single creature is going to result in that creature getting nullified by the Wizard through Shrink/Weak/Stagger/Exile anyway.
But these creatures do not have both a quick attack and a full attack, that's the difference and the reason I excluded some of them.
For spells, it depends. Hurl Boulder is like the Timberwolf, 2 turns of mana but unlike Timberwolf nothing is left after. Also, not all Academy spells are weak. Piercing Thunderstrike 4 dice piercing +2. But yeah, I also find them quite too strong for Academy, that's why I flagged them yellow.
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Where I picked it up from - and I can see how it was an interpretation thing was this line:
"...All cards in Academy can also be used in Arena, but not all Arena cards can be used in Academy..."
If there was no intent to splice in, then wouldn't it have said '...but Arena cards cannot be used in Academy...'?
Source: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14337.0
Hey guys,
I'm pretty positive there is no intention of Arena splicing into Academy. The term they've been using for Academy, I think, is forward compatable, so older mages can retain the tricks they learned back at school but not the other way around.
If you find something stating otherwise you should definitely shout it to the world.
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This is fab thanks Wildhorn, it definitely seems to have started the kind of discussion I was interested in reading so I appreciate your sharing.
I did think/agree that there is possibly some built in balance with using some Arena cards in academy - you've noted some of this yourself - high cost cards are going to take more mana and tempo investment and probably represent too many eggs in one basket.
I think points 2-7 make a lot of sense - 1, is perhaps covered by the above points, but I think a lot of powerful creatures also have other traits that would get them excluded. Actually just checked these - there are only 10 (8 creatures) and most probably would stay in without this criteria so I take that back.
I wasn't sure about 8 - could you include them but note that the flying trait isn't relevant? I was thinking that this would mean that you're probably overpaying for the creature, as Flying is a cool trait in Arena. But someone might want one just for theme.
9 is probably similar - you're paying mana for a trait that you can't use.
10 seems critical as these are usually balance traits in Arena, so having them in Academy where the trait doesn't limit the creatures' effectiveness boosts their power. I'd actually say any creature with slow or rooted should be excluded.
I must say I like the idea of being able to draw on Arena cards thematically - you're an over achiever, a bit driven, you've read ahead and/or stolen access to things you perhaps should have. So you can play them, but the perhaps may not synergise as well, they're harder and take longer to cast, they have some easy Academy counters, or have traits that don't work in the controlled Academy setting, but if you can make it work, it will be awwwesssome!. It would be extra fun to add some random effects, or consequences of playing higher level cards but that's perhaps over complicating it.
Wildhorn, I'd be interested in the inclusion/exclusion criteria? Just from an interest perspective, so like how'd you decide?
1. Exclusion of every leve 5+ creatures because more often than not, they are way too powerful.
2. Exclusion of weapons because they are also too powerful for Academy.
3. Exclusion of things with a minimum range of 1 because everything in Academy are at range 0.
4. Exclusion of things that push, pull, or teleport, because you can't really do it.
5. Exclusion of spawnpoints and familiar because they are too powerful in the context of Academy.
6. Exclusion of creatures with a normal quick attack and a strong full attack since they can always use the full attack.
7. Exclusion of walls because there is only 1 zone.
8. Do not recommend flying creatures because there is none of them in Academy so far (even ones with wings do not fly).
9. Do no recommend creatures with Fast or Charge because these traits serve no purpose in Academy.
10. Do no recommend Zombies or Plants of any sort because their Slow/Rooted traits are irrelevant in Academy.
My only dilema are Zone Exclusive conjuration. I think most of them would be ok if both players could each have 1 of them out.
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When we designed Academy one of our goals was to have every card function in Arena. We wanted every card to be something that a new player could take with them. Something familiar they could use as a stepping stone into a larger world, if they wanted. With that in mind we designed Academy with a very simple rule, make it great in Academy first. We tested these cards against each other thoroughly and we designed them from the ground up with Academy in mind. I really feel this shows through on the Academy core set. Arena spells are held to different standards and design goals, ones more appropriate to that product. So, while you can use Academy cards in Arena, the opposite was not necessarily intended.
Now, obviously Academy and Arena spells are very similar, and so if you want then I'm sure you can find several cards that would work in Academy. I think that Wildhorn's list is a good place to start. Also keep in mind that Arena has many keywords that do not exist in Academy and could be problematic. Also keep in mind that the nature of the one zone game makes certain cards much more powerful than they would normally be.
For Arcane Wonders events, they'll be clearly either Academy or Arena. We want things to be clear and without confusion for our players. Thanks for your enthusiasm everyone!
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I am currently in the process of updating the list I made (I am at the letter D). After 8 games of Academy, we figured some cards that were yellow are clearly red now and some green are yellow, while some yellow are green.
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I am currently in the process of updating the list I made (I am at the letter D). After 8 games of Academy, we figured some cards that were yellow are clearly red now and some green are yellow, while some yellow are green.
With this perspective, looking at your 8 principles, would you edit/change any? or are they all good with the devil in the detail?
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I am currently in the process of updating the list I made (I am at the letter D). After 8 games of Academy, we figured some cards that were yellow are clearly red now and some green are yellow, while some yellow are green.
With this perspective, looking at your 8 principles, would you edit/change any? or are they all good with the devil in the detail?
My 8 principles?
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Exclusion of every leve 5+ creatures because more often than not, they are way too powerful.
Exclusion of weapons because they are also too powerful for Academy.
Exclusion of things with a minimum range of 1 because everything in Academy are at range 0.
Exclusion of things that push, pull, or teleport, because you can't really do it.
Exclusion of spawnpoints and familiar because they are too powerful in the context of Academy.
Exclusion of creatures with a normal quick attack and a strong full attack since they can always use the full attack.
Exclusion of walls because there is only 1 zone.
Do not recommend flying creatures because there is none of them in Academy so far (even ones with wings do not fly).
Do no recommend creatures with Fast or Charge because these traits serve no purpose in Academy.
Do no recommend Zombies or Plants of any sort because their Slow/Rooted traits are irrelevant in Academy.
My only dilema are Zone Exclusive conjuration. I think most of them would be ok if both players could each have 1 of them out.
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Oh. Yeah, I would add some.
- Anything rolling natural 5 attack dice or more is a no.
Way too strong when you doublestrike it.
- Giving defense to the mages is a no.
Would make the game to drag on time too much, especially if you start to stack them.
- Anything that remove permanently enchantment/equipment that require quick action is a no.
I noticed that the full action to remove them is a big part of the game. The limited amount of remover is also something.
- Equipment or revealed Enchantment that cost 5 mana or more is a no.
Would be too easy for the wizard to prevent you to ever remove them and they are quite strong for Academy.
- Until they add condition remover, anything that give Tainted is a big no and even then I think Tainted is a too strong effect for the limited hp of Academy.
There are probably others, but that's it for the moment.
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it becomes very complicated... and interesting!
i'm looking forward to see your final list.
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Even with all these restrictions you still keep the naturally strong creatures like the [mwcard=MW1C38]Timber Wolf[/mwcard]. He is simply slightly better than the razortusk.
(http://magewars.weebly.com/uploads/2/1/7/6/21761652/1441314732.png)
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1 mana might be worth slightly more in academy due to the lower channeling rate? Timberwolf does look naturally stronger, but if you're trying a swarm or want a few creatures out, 4 mana over 4 rounds isn't insignificant and when there isn't as much damage being thrown around, the boar isn't a total lightweight.
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Even with all these restrictions you still keep the naturally strong creatures like the [mwcard=MW1C38]Timber Wolf[/mwcard]. He is simply slightly better than the razortusk.
(http://magewars.weebly.com/uploads/2/1/7/6/21761652/1441314732.png)
I am still only at letter "I" for the revised list.
Also in Academy the pivot point of mana cost is 7-8-9 mana. 7 mana cards are castable every turn (assuming no mana drain effect). 8 mana cards are castable every turn if you have an amulet. 9 mana cards take 2 turns to cast unless you have both an amulet and the fearie. Can make the difference between winning and losing.