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Messages - Alexander West

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16
@ringkichard
I was thinking that the goal would be to get down dual use cards. So, for example, Wall of Thorns blocks LoS, which can save you a lot of damage. But it's also a threat when combined with Force Push. Same with Dancing Scimitar. It's a defense, but you can also pivot and use it as an attack. Reverse attack is the same way: it saves you damage, but it's a lot more threatening than a block. The idea here would be to play for tempo, using stalling tactics to buy time for the Lair to finish making enough birds, and then to turn around and use your former defenses as a swing offense to win the game.

Thanks for explaining the idea.  Yes, I love playing cards that are versatile in terms of whether they are an attack or a defense.  Don't forget that Thunderift Falcon is also versatile in this way!  It can attack, and then later can be made a "chump" guard if you need more life!

The key to this harebrained scheme would be Rolling Fog. A total agro book is not going to want to give you three free turns, so they're going to have to get close instead of staying at range 2 and waiting to lob Boulders again. 

The thing about this is I don't want them to get close.  I find there is sometimes a turning point in the game where all I want is to preserve my life total while the birds do the rest at far range.  Lightning Barrier and Rolling Fog aren't going to keep me alive, and probably the former won't do enough damage to change the math of who is going to win the race to dead.  In both cases, a Hurl Boulder, Heal, or Reverse Attack is probably going to affect the math more significantly.  However, I could see something like Wall of Earth be a good tool in this vein.  (Completely cutting off LoS in a way that Rolling Fog only wishes it could.)

I think Suppression Orb + Obelisk can go in pretty much any book (except Warlord) if they want to win this matchup badly enough, and it doesn't require changing the rest of the spellbook (unless it's a swarm spellbook, obviously). The other options you suggest would require major surgery to add to most spellbooks, and I think of that more as general strategic metagaming than outright hate.

In practice, the hate I was thinking of was something like

1. (20) Gorgon Archer (4)
2. (14) Suppression orb (6) Hawkeye (3)
3. (13) Mordok's Obelisk (5) Arcane Zap (4)
4. (13) Chain Lightning (1) Arcane Zap (0)

Or the Hawkeye + Chain Lightning could instead be Wizard's Tower + Jet Stream + Voltaric Shield + Voltaric Shield, for example.


Wow, that looks brutal.  I'll have to set up a game and see if I can figure out any way to beat that.  I hadn't really thought about how well Suppression Orb synergizes with archers!  This could even be a case where Hawkeye and Chain Lightning are overkill because Archer + Zap is almost certainly lethal?  I like that this concept gets the Suppression Orb up early, so that the mana costs it is inflicting directly halt development of the swarm's resources.

17
@reddawn
Did anyone play zone attacks against your birds  or a few bigger flyers to eat'em? Anyone try to Fireball your tree?  I usually put in at least 1 zone attack or if I'm playing Necro, Poison Gas Cloud.  If you can time them correctly, their efficiency is pretty ridiculous.

Just the one Ring of Fire and the one Chain Lightning.  I think just one is not enough without a second or some other kind of damage to finish off the injured.

Only one flyer was played vs. the Beastmaster, a Gargoyle Sentry.  It didn't last long because there was already a critical mass of birds that took it out in 1-2 rounds.

No one tossed a Fireball at a tree, but that does seem odds on to be a great answer.  You're down a mana, but if a bunch of creatures drop dead it's absolutely worth it.

@sIKE:

I like the plan of focus killing the birds, though I think the trick is making sure the mana/attacks line up so that the anti-bird mage isn't wasting too many mana/actions.

I think Mage Staff is good for one bird, but will probably get Dissolved before you kill a 2nd.  (A big win for the book with the Mage Staff, since you traded mana but turned your ineffective attack into a dead bird.)  Hurl Rock (on Wizard's Tower) and Hail of Stones seem a little frustrating since they will often leave birds a hair away from dead.  I guess in the variance they should kill some, but the majority should survive.  Though, I guess if enough are stunned off a single Hail of Stones maybe something on the ground could mop one up?

I like Flameblast better for killing a bird than Hurl Rock since the Burn will often finish the bird off (and sooner than healing next turn could be applied).  I guess either is fine off a mage with Hawkeye since they go up to 5 damage.  On the edges of the arena Jet Stream is the best since you get 4 dice plus a good chance of 3 dice as the bird hits the wall, which I think makes it the best Wizard's Tower spell.

I wonder, though, how much mana this Wizard will spend killing 26 mana worth of birds (3 normal + 1 pet), and how much damage they will take from the birds in the meantime?

18
@Biblofilter:
Well i only own five Thunder Falcons so that makes bats an obvious choice  :)
Heh, I know what you mean!   :o  Prior to the tournament I only had 3, and had to borrow 3 from Andrew! 

I was thinking about making the bat pet instead? Summoning it early would be nice, but thats probably to slow?
I think it depends on what kind of opponent you're facing.  If they are aggressive the bat will be slower than a falcon, and probably not one of the first fliers to summon.  However, if they are slower or more defensive the bat can actually be better.  The rots will slowly add up, and over time the bat will deal more damage than a falcon.  (If the bat is doing well enough, it will cause them to spend mana + actions on a Purge, which is also fine.)

@RingKichard:
Against a hyper-agressive Attack Spell book, since Togorah isn't really an option, I wonder if the best strategy isn't damaging disruption. You've already got Dancing Scimitar, Reverse Attack, and Wall of Thorns/Force Push. A Rolling Fog might help with blocking LOS, and once the opponent is forced into melee, things like Defend and Circle of Lightning can help, too, as long as you've got a solid creature to put them on (Dire Wolf? Bridge Troll? Dragonclaw Wolverine?).
Could you explain a little about what you mean by damaging disruption?  (Or link me to a discussion of the tactic elsewhere?)  Defenses, Dazes, and LoS blockers all make sense to me, but I got a little lost when we started talking about putting Defend and Circle of Lightning on creatures or forcing the opponent into melee?

Rolling Fog was the last spell Andrew and I cut from the book before the tournament.  We liked the idea of not being able to be targeted, but we kept trying to imagine a situation where it would work better than a card we already had and we couldn't come up with any.

I do think the biggest weakness of this book is its vulnerability to being hated out, but playing it this year at Gencon was an inspired metagame choice.

I agree that every book can be hated out.  I'm curious which way you think is best to hate it out:  a) kill the Beastmaster faster than the Lair-Falcon engine can take over the game; b) invest in a mana engine for mana parity, and then trade removal spells with birds; c) play a reasonable game and set up a big Suppression Orb/Mordiok's Obelisk turn; d) summon bigger creatures to fight the little ones; e) something else?

19
Alas, I made a huge mental error against Nick in round 2. Of course easy to say in hindsight. Otherwise you might have had your nightmare scenario. In fact, that is exactly the same way I should have played against Nick. Bad misjudgement on my part.

Interesting.  I think Nick's book is close to the best possible against this "pure aggression" mage.  Having Battle Forge, multiple copies of Dragonscale Hauberk, Veteran's Belt and plenty of armor and healing seems like the right combination of tools and actions to blunt a concerted assault?

The reason I think The Aviary is so weak to this line of play is that it's investing mana in aggression instead of defense, and only has token copies of armor and healing.

20
@BoomFrog:
In the week before Gencon when we actually put our books together bats never even got considered.  If we had talked about it I'm sure we would have put 1 or 2 in, they are clearly a good choice.

Well, I probably should have thought about them out loud instead of only to myself.  I removed them in my initial cuts before I talked to you about the book because they didn't have Fast.  It wasn't clear to me that they were a good choice until we discussed them after the tournament.

On a side note, we were originally considering Alexander's deck to be a hyper agro deck like my forcemaster, but in retrospect after the tournament it is clearly a control deck.  You gain an incremental advantage over your opponent from the efficiency of falcons and then spend all your mana and actions negating the rest of your opponents play.

Yeah, I was thinking about this after the tournament!  I think it's actually economy-aggro.  This is to say that its first stage is economic development in the form of Lair (investing 15 in +2 mana / turn and +1 action / turn), and then immediately changes gears to maximum aggression (for a Nature mage).  This feels like pure aggression against a lot of books, but explains why I always felt on the back foot when playing against more aggressive books on the spectrum.  Your Forcemaster is also economy-aggro, but much more emphasis on aggro because you spend 7 fewer early mana on economy, and the aggressive cards you buy into have a faster payback than mine do.

I kept thinking my nightmare matchup would be a 100% aggressive mage who just ran at me and then unleashed a stream of Fireballs, Explodes, and Hurl Boulders.  Any mage who could convert their first 46-50 mana (4 turns) into 36+ damage is scary, and will easily beat the rate the falcons can kill someone even with punching backup from a Beastmaster.  (Falcons can't kill until the end of turn 4, where this hypothetical aggressive mage would probably kill at the beginning of turn 4.)


21
@Bilbofilter:

Thanks for the congratulations, I'm glad you enjoyed the report and these posts.  :)

Akiro's Favor is a card I'm pretty excited about.  One of the things I immediately thought to do, and almost made it into The Aviary was a Sosruko, Ferret Companion + Akiro's Favor package.  My thought was that the mana was worth spending against most solo mages because the ferret could put them at a huge action deficit.  Andrew talked me down from this plan, pointing out that enchanting Sosruko now made a 10 mana target that could easily be killed by a single Flameblast or Perfect Strike.  I'm pretty leery of setting myself up for trading down mana, so I backed off the idea.

In retrospect, I think I would have very much liked a Sosruko against Nick Tinko's Fire Wizard, possibly against Andrew's Forcemaster, and likely vs. Harry's Warlock.  Being able to waste a solo mage's main action, and possibly stop them from moving is very, very powerful.  What I don't think I realized was that Etherian Lifetree is just as helpful to the ferret as to the falcons.  I wouldn't always play lifetree just to support Sosruko, but if I had a lifetree, it becomes reasonable to enchant the ferret due to his increased survivability.

As far as bats go, I like them, particularly against high armor opponents.  Andrew and I seriously considered including a few as "falcons 7 and 8".  Getting to rot through armor can cause a lot of trouble, and tax people's condition removal resources.  However, I don't very much like the idea of enchanting them, as a 3 point enchantment is a big investment on a 5 point bat.  For just two points I could get another bat, which will double my rots, instead of increasing them by only 50% and putting a lot of eggs in a tiny basket.  Enchanting a Tegu makes a bit more sense to me, a third of the cost of the animal for 50% more rot sounds good if what you want is more rotting.

Edit:  I feel where Akiro's Blessing is really going to shine is the near-solo mage who is relying on a lot of Burn/Corrode/Stun or can't afford to have below average damage dice.  Probably a Warlock, Forcemaster, or aggressive flavor of Wizard?

22
Events / Re: Mage Wars Tournament @ GenCon Indy 2014
« on: August 22, 2014, 01:48:05 PM »
@silverclawgrizzly:

No, that's what Temple of the Dawnbreaker does.  (Which is both pretty awesome, and a bit pricier to do!)  Akiro's Favor is only for attacks.

23
Events / Re: Mage Wars Tournament @ GenCon Indy 2014
« on: August 22, 2014, 12:41:32 PM »
and the roll of the dice...

Mage Wars is actually great as far as dice variance goes.  I love that they made cards like Akiro's Favor, which are essentially insurance on dice outcomes.  Additionally, as a player you get to choose whether you play a high variance strategy or a low variance strategy.  Some kinds of books are *much* more dependent on a few die rolls than others, whether because the latter book uses fewer die-based mechanics, or rolls *so many* dice that any specific die roll isn't a big deal.

24
@sIKE:
I am just trying to get an understanding of your opponents and their lack of counter swarm play. Everything I have asked is typically what I have seen used to counter swarms.

I have a fair amount of experience with constructable game metagames, and have found there is almost always a rotating weakness in those metagames to some strategies while players focus on beating the top performing strategies.

Wizards have been dominating Mage Wars for a while, largely with their mana production, toolbox towers, and Battle Forge equipment stacks.  I imagine that players tried to bring more cards that were strong against this sort of play, and fewer that are good against other strategies.  It happens that the cards good against a Wizard are close to the opposite of the cards which are good against a swarm.  (I know I played around a dozen anti-Wizard cards, and only 1 anti-swarm card.)

I think a part of what happened is that people just didn't quite have enough gas vs. swarm because it's been underplayed for a while.  0-1 Wizard's Tower, 0-1 Hurl Rock, 0-1 Jet Stream, 0-2 Flameblast, 0-2 zone attacks, 0 ranged creatures, 0-1 flying creatures, 0-1 Mage Staff, 0-1 Lash of Flame are just not high enough counts of the critical cards for such a matchup.  Bump up those counts and the road gets a lot rockier.  (Though, I agree that Etherian Lifetree can be a real game changer, turning spells that deal the "perfect 5" into "not quite lethal".)

I did have plans to fight through more hate with wolves if a game went on for a while, but none of my games got to this stage.

25
@sIKE:
One other question: What kind of Zone Attacks did you see?

Ring of Fire and Chain Lightning were the only ones cast.  After my match one of the Warlocks complimented the fact that I kept positioning my birds in a way that he couldn't get enough value out of a Firestorm to cast it.  In a similar vein, I saw both Circle of Fire, and Circle of Lightning, which I feel are both more effective than most of the area spells that do less than 5 damage in a burst.

I am curious about your questions... what's the hypothesis you're working on?



26
@jacksmack:
I love that u included purge magic in a BM book. I dont think any 1 would ever expect that.
Its a spell that see little play already, and when its played its almost always a wizard that casts it.

My brother and I both love this spell, and nearly always have 1x in our books.  Sure, it's expensive, but having a card that can punish an opponent for some lines of play means blow-out opportunities in games that aren't open to everyone.

One kind of neat thing about playing an aggressive proactive book like Aviary is that I know the struggle is going to revolve around my birds and my life total.  As long as I can protect those two things, (and by protect, I also mean make sure my birds aren't negated by lots of armor or a Suppression Cloak) I'm pretty sure I can win.  Therefore, I don't have to play as many cards that work in a broad range of circumstances and can just play narrower cards that will be relevant to the scenario I know I will create.  This leaves SP for things like Purge Magic.

Did you ever feel action starved with this build?  (like: wanting to dispell, forcepush, equip armor and quickcast another bird in the same round)
No, I usually feel like I have plenty of actions.  So much so that I am usually running around the field punching my opponent when I'm on the offense, or hiding in a corner drinking from a Renewing Spring when I'm protecting my life total.

What I am constantly feeling short on is mana.  The Beastmaster channels 9, and the Lair channels 2, which isn't enough to break even when summoning two 6 mana birds in a turn.  As such, I must sometimes give up summoning one, or even both falcons in order to cast other spells or save up for the next turn's summons.

During the tournament I came to appreciate cards with low costs like Leather Boots, Leather Gloves, and Rhino Hide since they often fit well with spending 6 on a falcon and having 5 mana left over to invest in other magic.

27
@Schwenkgott:
I wish we would have something like this in Germany.
Yes.  I hope lots of Mage Wars players sign up to be Ambassadors, partner with gaming stores, and keep growing the community.  It would be great if this game got big enough to have anything like the global organized play some TCG, LCG, and miniatures games have.

What would you have done against a defensive priestress with knight guards, lot of healing to stay alive?
Aganist the Priestess I'm pretty sure there are no quick mage assassinations, so I think I would play a game of total attrition.  I'd want to use my pet and my Beastmaster to blow Guard tokens so that my falcons would be free to attack whatever target I'd decided to focus down.  I might also need to play Etherian Lifetree so that a regular falcon could take a 5 dice hit, depending on the circumstances.  Either way, I'm guessing I'd make extensive use of Renewing Spring to top off characters that had gotten injured in action.  I'd try to pick off the Priestess' summons one by one as they came into play, until I built up a critical mass of birds to push for the mage herself.

Or a necromancer with zombie guards and Idol of Pestilence to bring bloodthirsty to full effect?
I'm pretty sure this is the circumstance where my Force Pushes and Teleports would really shine.  If there weren't a lot of guards, I'd take a hit on the Beastmaster or pet and then focus the guard down.  If there were a lot of guards I would use my movement spells to pull the Necromancer away from the entourage so the Falcons could get at him.  Depending on the type of Zombie, I'd also consider using Etherian Lifretre to make it so a regular falcon could soak a guard hit, and combine it with Renewing Spring to make the process repeatable. 

Using the falcons to destroy the Idol of Pestilence would also be in the consideration, but might not be feasible if there were a lot of Zombies guarding it.  In general, I'd probably be wanting to keep my Beastmaster away from any large number of Zombies because they hit so hard, or I'd have wanted to armor up before wading in.

28
@SilverclawGrizzly:
Thanks for the congratulations!  Don't sweat that I'm going to get tired of being congratulated, it feels great, and I don't think it will ever get old!  ;)

Given that swarms, especially the Beast Master, have been given such a bad light do you see your victory changing perceptions?
It's too early to know for sure, but I think the answer is yes.  Public opinion is a powerful force, and it's been against swarms for some time.  However, the tools have been there for swarms to work for a while (since DvN in my opinion), and it's pretty hard to ignore a swarm winning the biggest annual Mage Wars tournament.

Looking at the cards available, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a viable Anvil Throne soldier book or any Warlock demon book do well.  The "Fast" Battle Order for the soldiers, and the teleport power on Wildfire Imp both get the creatures where they need to be, while both Altar of Carnage and Pentagram offer powerful economic engines to support them. 

Heck, even a Wizard's Blue Gremlins have the sort of mobility I want from a swarm creature, and Gate to Voltari isn't too shabby at mana generation.  Though, Wizard is slightly lacking in the mass buffs I want for my swarm.  I guess everyone has access to Marked for Death, but no other mass buffs like Armory or Bloodfire Helmet make it a little harder.  On the other hand, the little buggers are pretty hard to kill due to their dodge and point of armor, so that's something.

To be successful, these books will have to overcome two hurdles that the Beastmaster doesn't face:  1)  They will have to figure out how to deal with the fact that summoning is a slow action.  Not being able to move and summon a creature means they will have to adopt at least slightly different strategy than Straywood.  2) They must pay either mana or actions for high mobility.  With falcons, there is no ongoing cost to keep forces mobile, but that isn't true of either Battle Orders or the Teleport powers on the various imps.  Mana in this game is often pretty tight, so there is some struggle.

Even if the other books can't make it work quite as well, I'm pretty sure Straywood based swarms are going to be a long term part of the metagame.  Though, it's certainly possible they will fall our of favor from time to time if players go overboard on playing tons of hate against them.

29
@sIKE:
So you never had any focus on your Falcons?
Yes and no.  Several opponents seemed to have plans to shoot them down (Lash of Hellfire, Ivarium Longbow, Ring of Fire, Chain Lightning, Mage's Tower + Jet Stream, Gargoyle Sentry), but I was mostly able to break it up with Dissolve, Etherian Lifetree, falcon damage, or in one case extreme good luck.  That said, I felt like no one dedicated to focus fire fast and hard enough.  I was very surprised none of the Wizards used their Arcane Zap to shoot down birds, and none of the Warlocks seemed to have Flameblasts to trade with falcons.  I feel like a good plan vs. swarm is to kill the creatures as quickly as they come out, but I think a lot of books lacked the tools, and possibly some pilots lacked experience playing against swarm.  (One of the advantages of playing a book widely regarded as "not viable".)

Did you see any creatures? lots of small/few mid/Ranged (like the Crossbowman)
I saw few mid from several players, Ranged from just one, and never lots of small.

Did anyone use Guard to counterstrike your birds?
Frequently, but it doesn't help much.  The pet and the beastmaster both have plenty of health to soak up a counterattack, so I usually just have them trigger the guard first to clear a path for the more fragile birds.  Even if those two characters aren't available, each bird is usually able to soak a single hit since most guards hit for 3-4 dice and the falcons have 5 life.  I had games where each bird took turns soaking 1 hit to set off a Guard.  One of the huge advantages of Flying is being able to completely dictate the sequence of attack interactions.

@RingKichard:
When I used to run swarm Beastmaster, I ran into issues getting my Falcons picked off one by one, usually by Arcane Zap + Ranged Attack (usually Gorgon) + Wizard's Tower. How should I avoid this? Is Lifetree sufficient?
I think whether the ranged attacks or the falcons win has everything to do with tempo.  Like, if I've summoned 2 falcons on turn 2 and 2 falcons on turn 3, they have enough attack between them to destroy a source of ranged attacks possibly in a single turn.  On the other hand, a smaller force of falcons might be destroyed in detail if they are coming a few at a time due to a slower deployment schedule.

When facing a Wizard's Tower (presumably with Jet Stream), it's obviously crucial to stay away from the wall unless absolutely necessary.  I'm also quite willing to burn extra mana on an attack spell to kill it early (usually Acid Ball to get rid of the armor, or Geyser because it's cheap).  A lot of Wizards have just 1 Jet Stream in their book, and it going away when a tower dies is a big perk.

Gorgon is pretty expensive.  Depending on the circumstances I'd consider Acid Ball + Birds to kill it, or even Banishing it if there were enough other threats that my birds needed to keep busy taking apart some other threat.  I could also see it being worthwhile to Teleport/Force Push a Gorgon so birds were able to get to it without taking a hit on the way in due to its range of 2?

Lifetree can be very good or useless, depending on what spells and ranged attacks they are using.  My general rule is that if I can make a falcons life total equal to the sum of some attacks + 1, I want to play it.  For example, vs. a Wizard with Mage Zap, Etherian Lifetree makes a falcon go from 2 zaps on average (3 + 3 > 5) to 3 zaps on average (3 + 3 < 7).  However, if a Wizard had an Ivarium Longbow, I'd want not to use the tree since (4 + 3 = 7) it's going to die in two shots either way (4 + 3 > 5).  The math changes as your birds acquire injuries, of course.

If you knew your brother was bringing a book with Orb + Obelisk + Gargoyle, would you still want to play Aviary?
That's a good question.  After playing Nick I was contemplating what I would do if an opponent cast Orb + Obelisk at the end of a turn, and then on the next turn played Mana Siphon.  I think my Beastmaster plus pet can dish out enough damage to destroy those things in a reasonable span, but maybe with a Guard getting in the way it could get ugly.  (Though I'm uncertain a Guard could survive long enough to get an action token if my swarm is sizeable.)  My instinct is that unless the trap is laid perfectly the Aviary could overcome it, but if each piece is played and supported in the right order, I could see losing several birds to Upkeep effects to pay for movement.

I think an interesting line of counter play might be to keep around 10 mana banked so that the turn the Orb/Obelisk do get dropped the swarm can move and attack as normal?

I'm having a hard time imagining bringing three Suppression Cloaks. Is that common where you play?
Nope!  Thankfully, I've never seen 3 Suppression Cloaks.  However, vs. opponents from an unknown metagame, one must always consider the possibility.  I thought against Nick the odds of 3 were low, given that so much of his book is designed to beat swarm anyway via stacking armor with the Veteran's Belt.

@Jon.Ambriz:
When doing the math on whether I wanted to play the Lair, I was definitely crediting it for getting my falcons 1 square closer to an opponent who was turtleing in the corner.  The fact that a Falcon deployed T2 at B2 can attack a mage at A1 on T3 is great.

30
Is there a point in the video where you guys discuss the philosophy behind your books?  I like the look of the Tool Shed.  Is the basic game plan to keep the opponent away from the conjurations with Teleport Traps and lightning spell stun/dazes?  If so, I'm curious about your experiences with positional management?  My brother and I keep talking about how cool ranged creatures seem, but I've never been too sure about how to keep targets at range at a reasonable cost in mana and actions.

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