Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Brazil on April 10, 2016, 12:34:43 PM
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So I quit playing about a year or two ago, in a small part due to the OP(over powered) nature of Wall of Thorns. I was playing with my local friends then went to a local tournament, and one serious player showed up, who had this wall of thorns deck. The whole deck revolved around removing armor items and pushing the opposing wizard through a wall of thorns, which since he's level 6....has the net affect of - a 10 dice attack, for very little mana cost.
That seemed "Broken" to me. Not that the deck couldn't be countered....very very difficult to counter. But any deck which specifically has to be counter-built against breaks the game balance.
So...my question is: Has something been done to Nerf "Wall of Thorns"?
It's Mana to Damage ratio is ridiculous compared to other spells.
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Not really, just real simple strategies to counter it, mainly several pieces of Leather in different slots and/or a Brace Yourself, make sure the opponents Dissolve Wand is destroyed quickly. Even one armor really takes the teeth out of it. Additionally you can do the same back and give them some of there on own medicine.
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I used to see wall of thorns push combo used all the time, and now I only see it used on rare occasion. Force push costs 6 mana to push a creature through a wall. wall of thorns costs 5 mana. So that's 11 mana and two quick actions for 10 dice. As a finisher it feels cheesy and unthematic because it doesn't make much sense for mere thorns to do that much damage, but it's not overpowered anymore. I'm not entirely sure if it ever was, to be honest. Armor stops it as does eagleclaw boots, and there are ways to protect your armor and your boots now, as well as to remove corrode conditions. Keep in mind that wall of thorns push combo costs 2 quick actions and 11 mana to work (or 2 quick actions and 9 mana if you're using jet stream). Double fireball generally is a more efficient and powerful finisher than wall of thorns push.
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Its the double push that is deadly.....but yes Charmyna (I think) was the one who taught me this one.....
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Well compare it to two Hurl Rock. Still 10 dize, 2 actions, 8 mana and a daze chance. And a lot better vs. 1 armor.
What makes Wall of Thorns really good are action stacking like 3 trips through a wall with Wizard, Wizards Tower and even Huginn for an extra treat.
Nature school don't really have any high damage spells so I like it. Besides its pretty goods vs. Force field.
Counters are pretty easy. Put on some leather, 1 enchantment (Nully, Divine Protection, Rhino Hide) almost any hidden will work. Eagleclaw Boots or even Tanglevine your mage!
Its a bit harsh to use on beginners but I gladly use it vs. almost anyone who fails to protect themselves.
Im considering a druid build with Seedling pots (can conjure Wall of Thorns) and Mountain Goats to do some pushing :)
Or any mage with multiple Goblin Builders..
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Tanglevine yourself man!
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hurl rock+hurl rock+hurl boulder 17dice 16mana vs 17mana 20 dice wall of thorns push
vs armor the rocks much better else its 3dice for 1mana, but more set up. when you do it, off ini turn so you can quickcast next round...
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hurl rock+hurl rock+hurl boulder 17dice 16mana vs 17mana 20 dice wall of thorns push
vs armor the rocks much better else its 3dice for 1mana, but more set up. when you do it, off ini turn so you can quickcast next round...
But You can boost damage from attack spells with Hawkeye, Sniper Shot or reroll dice with Akiro's favor (and Gloves of Skill if You use promos). Simple aegis on enemy mage reduces damage from the wall by half.
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No, it's not fixed because it's not broken. Any Armour or Aegis completely nerfs it.
If you get hit by this, it's generally poor play on your part allowing it (and you should expect any opposing book to either strip or ignore your armour).
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But any deck which specifically has to be counter-built against breaks the game balance.
I can agree with that.
It would be impossible to build an interessant book if you would have to add 1 card to counter each of 50 possible killing books (1 x 50 x 2points = 100 points, leaving 20 points to play!). And would it be only one such killing deck, it would be bad to have to add a card in every book just to counter it.
But in the case of the wall of thorns, the cards that can counter it (armor, boots, etc) are cards that are usefull against many books, it's basis defense!
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No one even mentioned the very simple - deal 6 damage to the wall and destroy it.
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No one even mentioned the very simple - deal 6 damage to the wall and destroy it.
But used the way it is most effective, the wall doesn't even exist until just before you are tossed through it... twice... and unable to cast any spells or activate creatures between.
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Okay look: People who play "Wall of Thorns" strategies, bring plenty of support spells to ensure it works, he will have Dispels, Disenchants, Steal Enchantment, Steal Equipment, Detonate....and more than one wall of Thorns.
It's not like you're going to counter a well constructed Wall of Thorns book with just a few spells, you really have to commit a fair percentage of your spell book to counter it. And since it deals such a massive amount of damage so quickly, I mean is there anything that deals the amount of damage per mana spent than pushing someone through a wall of thorns does? Average 12 damage per trip through the wall. A Wizard is unlikely to survive 4 pushes.
So even if, you have a counter that you think is effective to stop it, you pretty much have to have those counters in every tournament spell book you make. (and we're not talking about a couple cards....you're going to have to commit 1/4 or more of your spell book to counter a good Wall of Thorns player.) Your normal strategy is unlikely to work, since the Wall of Thorns deals damage faster than pretty much any other strategy, it pretty much forces anyone who wants to play in a tournament to have to commit 1/4 or more of their book to "Wall of Thorns defense"....or play Wall themselves. This really sques the meta-game play tournament environment.
Frankly if a particular card causes the every tournament player to have to bring a dozen or more counter strategy cards to accommodate that one strategy caused by that card, it is a bad card to have in the game. It should be banned or nerfed. If the card wording were just something like "This Card treats Mages as level 2" Something like that would just fix the whole problem. But it is a problem to be sure.
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First of all I consider myself a fairly good player an second I consider myself a really good Wall of Thorns player as my favorite mage for a year or so was a WoT pushing Wizard.
I don't believe what your saying is true. A committed WoT strategy can be countered quit easily.
Average damage for 1 WoT push vs. a mage is 10 damage if the mage doesn't have ANY kind off protection.
Obvious counter is put on some kind of leather armor.
Put on 1 face down enchantment on your mage - its now very risky to spend 11 mana for a maybe 10 dice.
Take extra care in rounds were you have initiative.
A pretty standard opening like mana flower/crystal + Battle Forge is very hurtfull to a WoT strategy. If you plan WoT + Force Push in a round youre really hurt if your opponent puts on armor in deploy.
Ill admit 1 thing - WoT really rocks vs. people who don´t put on armor at all.
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Yea I don't see it as a problem either, and I have not been playing as long as some on the forums. if you put on one armor you could be blocking 1 basic damage each roll up to five times. Two pieces of armor 2 basic damage up to five times, ect. So with just two points of armor blocking up to 10 damage is pretty easy way to counter. Like others have said, many people use these spells in many builds. Comsidering a lot of armor is novice it does not really have to make that big of an impact on builds.
A lot of points here have been stating easy and mathematical solutions to wall of thorns and force push. I don't see everyone has to build the same book to counter such strategies because again some of these spells (armor, aegis, tanglevine self, even a teleport self out of harms way) are solutions to many different types of strategies.
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If you get hit by this, it's generally poor play on your part allowing it (and you should expect any opposing book to either strip or ignore your armour).
I disagree here. A clever opponent could bait and switch. Stripping an opponents armour is a matter of course. Ergo you can engineer a turn where their mage has zero armour and you invest mana for the kill. This is not bad play this may well be bad instincts however. This has more a shock value now due to it cycling out of the meta.
Personally I'd rather hurl rocks.
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Wall of Thorns push combo is 10 dice for 11 mana, or with jet stream instead of force push its 12 dice for 9 mana. However, it's easily countered by even one point of armor, or the unmovable trait. And jet stream has a chance of not pushing. Compare to attack spells like hurl rock (5 dice for 4 mana) which is less mana costly for the amount of damage it is likely to do than wall of thorns push combo is.
Two hurl rocks is 10 dice for 8 mana and doesn't require as much setup.
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What he is saying is sure, put on that bit of armor, thw wot mage simply removes that somehow and you are back where you started essentially vulnerable. so yo prevent that you have to prep protection again. which the wot mage is going to remove yet again. so the concern is how deep to have protection.
the solution is to have some depth, which could be some of the mentioned approaches. one round, double protect, so the wot mage has to counter both. one should always be un unrevealed enchantment. because now the wot has to be concerned it is a nullify. by dbl protection, you get a chance to see what he does. allows you a break to forward your own strategy. learning how to play aginst the wot mage really elevates your strngth as a player because it helps you learn tactics. that is a real improvement for a player. it helps you look at the game differently than the casual player. you have to think a few rounds ahead.
forge, armor, eagle boots, nullify. are just a few of the protection options. and most of those are useful against all mages, not just a wot. so your one qrtr spb is not accurate, since some protections are more generally useful than just against one build.
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The main thing in my opinion is don't rely on a single +2 Armor piece of equipment. It can easily be dissolved and you're back at 0 Armor, if you have 2 pieces of +1 Armor or any permutation like this it becomes very difficult to pull this trick off, and if you were to keep a third item lined up, like a hidden Brace Yourself, you pretty are now pretty well inoculated. The nice as thing that even though you hare spent 2-3 actions to counter the WoTP, the solution is viable through the rest of the game and really helps against other forms of spiked damage.
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agreed. multi layer your protection. then you buy time for other than ngs. then pay attention to what gets removed by the opponent.
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I agree that a multi-tiered defense is usually the best bet, but in my mind Acid Ball is a bigger threat than Dissolve for your armors. It can be spammed from Wizards Tower (or a wand) and always removes at least 1 point, sometimes 2 (which can result in 1 action "removeing" 2 actions of leathers) and it lets you save your Dissolves for non-armor equipment for stuff like Eagleclaw boots or utility equipment.
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I agree that a multi-tiered defense is usually the best bet, but in my mind Acid Ball is a bigger threat than Dissolve for your armors. It can be spammed from Wizards Tower (or a wand) and always removes at least 1 point, sometimes 2 (which can result in 1 action "removeing" 2 actions of leathers) and it lets you save your Dissolves for non-armor equipment for stuff like Eagleclaw boots or utility equipment.
Corrodes also have plenty of ways to be removed. If you had the unrevealed Rhino Hide or Brace Yourself as a back-up, and Armor +2 with two Corrodes, you can Rust yourself and shift the Rust to an enemy creature. If the +2 comes from one torso piece, simply swap it out. Off the top of my head, there also is Renewing Rain, Renewing Spring, and Wand of Healing that all can remove Corrodes.
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Swapping chest pieces doesn't work if you have other armor on. Corrodes are just negative armor no matter where the armor is so the only way swapping armor works is getting as many corrodes as you have armor and then swapping pieces.
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Divine Protection and Eagleclaw Boots are really good vs. a WoT strategy.
Putting on 1 armor is almost never wrong..
Don´t forget to push a WoT guy (like me) back trough his own wall :)
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As I noted, you would have only the +2 in this case. I said:
> If the +2 comes from one torso piece, simply swap it out.
Have only +2 in armor on, and have a Brace Yourself hidden, and you are covered in case of attack... and you have the option of swapping while the enchant is hidden.
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renewing rain removes burns, not corrodes. you must be thinking of rain cloud.
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Rain cloud... I knew it was one of those weather patterns. Thanks!
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One option I would mention is to build your own wall. I once played as a warlord against a beastmaster, when I thought he was trying to use the push+wall, I just built a earth wall + Lv1 creature. If done correctly, it can ruin his day. I tend to use a lot of walls, so if all else fails, you can wall yourself in a corner and summon Lv 1 creatures.