Melee/Ranged Traits and Effects Dice

[sIKE]

Trying to get a solid answer to this as the way I have been playing is that any traits + or - makes an overall on effect dice rolls. For example Knight of Westlock has a Lighting +2 Trait. He struck with a Lightning Bolt by a Mage with Hawkeye (Ranged +1). The total dice rolled for Damage would be 5+2+1=8 and effect die roll would be: ((6-7)-2-1)=3-4 Dazed and (8-2-1)=5+ Stunned

Is this correct or am I reading something into Page 26 that I shouldn't:
"If the attack has any possible additional effects listed in the attack bar (always shown as an additional effect box with a d12 icon), also roll the effect die at the same time, and add or subtract any modifiers to
that roll."

This question is from a thread on Facebook.

Thanks!

[baronzaltor]

To my knowledge, "Lightening+/-2"  does not at +/-2 to the secondary effect roll.  (or melee, or ranged or whathaveyou)

There are separate modifiers specifically for those rolls (See the "Toughness" ability, or Temple of Light ability description, theres a few other cases where the secondary roll gets modified.)

[Gewar]

Trying to get a solid answer to this as the way I have been playing is that any traits + or - makes an overall on effect dice rolls. For example Knight of Westlock has a Lighting +2 Trait. He struck with a Lightning Bolt by a Mage with Hawkeye (Ranged +1). The total dice rolled for Damage would be 5+2+1=8 and effect die roll would be: ((6-7)-2-1)=3-4 Dazed and (8-2-1)=5+ Stunned

Is this correct or am I reading something into Page 26 that I shouldn't:
"If the attack has any possible additional effects listed in the attack bar (always shown as an additional effect box with a d12 icon), also roll the effect die at the same time, and add or subtract any modifiers to
that roll."

This question is from a thread on Facebook.

Thanks!

No Hawkeye (and other effects giving you Melee or Ranged bonus) will not modify effect die roll.

You should only modyfy your efect die in two cases:
1. When card effect says so (Teample of Light).
2. When trait says so (Tough -X, [DAMAGE TYPE] +/-X)

For both traits you can look at codex and for damage type at p. 30 of rulebook.
Melee and Ranged are not Damage Types.
Even Ring of Lightning would not modify effect die roll, as it gives you Ranged bonus if Damage Type is Lightning, not Lightning bonus.

[Arcanus]

Wow - great answer Gewar!  Thanks!

[DarthDadaD20]

Said it better then me on facebook! I'm the last post who says," Only traits that affect damage type affect the effect die." I really just wanted to make a post after that which would say..... effectively affecting the effect die effects, just for fun.

[sIKE]

So on page 30 of the manual (not the PDF page 30 but the page that is denoted with the numeral 30) here is what I find confusing, specifically with what has been said here:

"The Circle of Lightning also has an additional effect roll. Because of Brogan’s Lightning +2 trait also adds +2 to the Hydra’s effect die roll."

As far as I can tell the trait is Lightning +2 as it states nothing as you have stated.

Once again on page 24 of the manual:

"Some attacks gain a bonus against targets with particular traits or subtypes. For example, Samandriel, Angel of Light has +1 vs. Nonliving or Dark creatures listed on her attack bar. If she is attacking a creature with the Nonliving trait, or from the Dark school, she adds +1 die to the number
of attack dice rolled, and also adds +1 to the roll of the effect die."


Same thing again.

And finally on page 24 of the manual:

"Add or subtract all of these modifiers from the number of dice listed in the attack bar. Roll a number of dice equal to the final, modified attack value. If the attack has any possible additional effects listed in the attack bar (always shown as an additional effect box with a d12 icon), also roll the effect die at the same time, and add or subtract any modifiers to that roll.

What I cannot find in the rules is a clear statement of when to apply modifiers to effect rolls.  Other than in the last underlined section. I see in the examples that they are applying trait modifiers to effect rolls as well have, but the ruling states otherwise.

Sorry I am a bit pedantic and I am still confused of when I should or shouldn't modify effect rolls, I am hoping that Arcanus can point me to the place in the manual that I keep missing.

[Arcanus]

Hello Sike,

The example on page 30 is correct. The Lightning +2 trait on Brogan (the defender of the attack) will increase both the # of attack dice and add to the effect die roll for the Hydra's Circle of Lightning damage barrier attack. This is in line with what Gewar was saying.

Your example of Samandriel's attack on page 24 is a good one Sike.  This is the only place where we clearly state that attacks which have a modifier vs. certain creature types or traits also modify the effect roll.

The rule is this: All traits ONLY modify the number of attack dice rolled, except for spells or traits which specifically say they modify the effect die roll. Those include:
1) A few spells such as Temple of Light.
2) The Tough trait (it specifically says it modifies only the effect die roll).
3) Damage Type Modifiers (such as Flame +2 or Lightning -2).
4) Attacks which have a bonus vs. certain creature types or traits (such as +2 vs. Flying, +1 vs, Incorporeal, or +1 vs. Dark). These are always written in the attack bar and expressed as "+ X vs. Y". Essentially, treat these just like a damage type modifier.

In our upcoming FAQ we intend to make this much clearer, and include a simple chart similar to the one below.

What's interesting is that we were originally going to do away with all of these traits and instead just print simple symbols on the card graphically showing the modifier with the dice icon.  So, a lightning +2 would show a lightning damage icon with a red dice with +2 on it, and a yellow die with +2 on it. Maybe we should have gone that route...  

[attachment=145]dicemodifiers.jpg[/attachment]

[DarthDadaD20]

What's interesting is that we were originally going to do away with all of these traits and instead just print simple symbols on the card graphically showing the modifier with the dice icon.  So, a lightning +2 would show a lightning damage icon with a red dice with +2 on it, and a yellow die with +2 on it. Maybe we should have gone that route...  

[attachment=145]dicemodifiers.jpg[/attachment]

Not important, but I think that would of cluttered up the attack bar, caused confusion with the attacks type(Example: a creature using a light attack that has the trait:Undead +1), and reiterated information that is already presented. Just my two cents,again, not that important.

[Arcanus]

Ha!  Good points.  That is exactly what the majority of the playtesters said, and thus we decided to go with text traits instead.

Many felt that the text traits may have an initial steeper learning curve over a graphical icon, but that gamers would learn them fast and then appreciate not having the clutter.

We were going to still have to use words for "Flying" and "Nonliving" too, which made the icons larger and more cumbersome on the attack bar.

[sIKE]

Perfect! This is exactly what I was looking for!