Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: reddawn on August 31, 2013, 10:03:12 AM
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How/when/etc do you guys use walls? We are more familiar with the walls with the Passage Attacks trait and Pushing creatures through them, but I'm more concerned about the Passage Blocked/Blocked LoS walls like Wall of Stone/Steel, which seem to be largely ignored at the moment.
Do you use these walls to section off parts of the arena? Maybe even an entire half of it? What kind of success have you had or not had?
For example, I've been struggling with playing the Warlord, so I'm looking at all the cards he has access to and his abilities, and thinking about using a strategy that may heavily section off parts of the arena and use Royal Archers/Slingers/Sniper in combination with Archer's Towers to harass my opponent, with Mountain Gorillas or creatures with the flying trait. Or maybe to leave only 1 zone open to pass through, but use a Wall of Pikes so that it's harder to get into my side rather than my opponent's side. It would look something like this:
X XW X X
X XW X X
X XP X X
X = Zone
W = Wall of Steel/Stone
P = Wall of Pikes
Perhaps I could incorporate some traps, like Spiked Pit, to compliment this strategy.
Basically, I'm asking, while I test this myself, whether you guys have experience using walls in this way or any way that is beyond simply pushing a creature multiple times through a wall with the Passage Attack trait. The Warlord (and I suppose the Priestess as well) in particular seem well-suited to doing this sort of thing, with their easy access to ranged Soldiers and fortification-style enchantments, so any thoughts/experience about those two would be especially welcome.
Thanks!
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When an opp turn one a battle forge I run up and drop a couple fog banks to block los it cost 10 mana and 4 points in any spell book and just to see them go dadada I'll just walk through the wall and I say haha your right where I want u to be and a wall of thorns after I walk into your bf zone and push you out or if I'm playing my beloved FM I'll use thought spores and position you away from bf
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I played a game with murphy on Octgn and he played a Warlord and he dropped stone walls in a stair step pattern across the board. He then placed traps on the open ends. I battered down the center wall like three times as he replaced them once he ran out of stone he replaced with steel. I just ended up grinding up the walls and chased him around the board eventually getting the win (well just before the round that I would declare: "There can only be one") he got disconnected. The thing that was disconcerting was he dropped the Archers Watch Tower and brought out the Sniper and started shooting things over the wall. I got sniper and then he walled off the Knight from the rest of my team. All in all, the game was interesting, he kept referring to it as a fun build, after four hours of playing I not so sure.
My main observation was he didn't have "enough" to kill my mage......so if you are going to drop a butt load of walls, make sure you have some mage kill support in the book also.
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Wall of Stone and Wall of Steel are okay short term answers to static threats like Wizard's Tower or Temple of Light, but if you're not prepared to win a Teleport war you can get in real trouble that way. And do remember that Earth Wizards are packing more and more Teleports and Force Pushes. Still, it's satisfying to wall off a tower of pain and go about the rest of your day.
Their best use is probably offensively: separating the opposing Mage from his most important creature will give you an opportunity to kill the target without interference. And, of course, if you can use two walls to box in your opponent you can play all kinds of tricks. Eagleclaw Boots are a pretty good counter to wall heavy play, though, so don't invest in them too heavily.
Do remember, though, using climbing requires a full action.
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Can't climb over fog bank or wall of fire though
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Can't climb over fog bank or wall of fire though
Because you can walk right through them. With Dragonscale Hauberk and Elemental Cloak, Wall of Fire doesn't even really hurt.
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Doesn't hurt?! Hold your hand above a lit candle. Burns.
In all seriousness, I use walls for tempo. They are great at blanking planned cards or making the opponent go the "long way round". Trying to play them to actually stop the opponent from getting somewhere is a waste of mana and time.
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I use Wall of Thorns plus Force Push / Jet Stream extensively.
Beyond that, I use walls to force non flying creatures to go the long way round or to lose time attacking the wall. I only ever consider them temporary speed bumps.
I have played against a Wall Maze strategy a couple of times, but on each occasion the opponent confused their own play and the walls ended up my advantage.
They are a consideration for me when choosing between playing a Grizzly or a Nec Vamp. If i sense a wall heavy game, I go vamp for the flying trait.
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Opening start corner Grimson + Archer Tower (Hawkeye next turn), I have once encased Grimson in 2 Steel Walls. But that was because I knew his Beastmaster build had only 2 Falcons as sole flyers and his Cheetah Speed Bear was about to first action pounce on Grimson.
That opening usually prompts opponent to build up forces in his safe L, giving you time for Slingers and Panzerguards. Lower priority are Pikes and Caltrops, only if facing mostly ground forces. I build Akiro's Hammer later as a Last QC to zone attack his grouped forces as it usually provokes The Big Assault and you need time to set up defences. With Longbow and Hawkeye Grimson on Tower overseeing the battlefield, you have zonal control, free concentrated fire to kill threats sequentially (perhaps augmented with a Hurl Boulder). Jet Stream, Force Push and Force Wave (Caltrops-hindered enemy) repulse enemies. Fog Banks are most useful if playing against this zonal control strategy, blocking my LOS and allowing your forces to assault.
The reason why I don't like spending mana on Pikes and Caltrops is because of flyers and Teleport. Any canny opponent just brings your Warlord to him for assassination and now your "fortifications" work against you and hinder your return to your safe fortress. A Warlord can't afford more than 1 Teleport or Nullify so you are always going to lose out to this counter-strategy.
I feel that's why Priestess (original zonal control with Royal Archers and Temple of Light) has Divine Intervention, to allow her to return to safety. Warlord currently just doesn't have the positional control of other mages thus is the weakest mage. The Warlord is built to play like a minis wargame but the game is more like Chess; you just need to kill the King and nobody cares about your hopeless board position.
The popularity of Vampiress and Samandriel (my original favourite pairing for an Air Wizard when at 1 Core pool) makes Walls situational (Angel of Light was my answer to Temple of Light but an Iron Golem meta returns her to my Air Wizard build). To make Walls even weaker, the popularity of Force Push and Wall of Thorns has made Eagleclaw Boots almost compulsory. Walls have been the victim of that spike damage trick's own success.
Sadly, I think all of my mage books have (at least) 1 Wall of Thorns + 1 Force Push + 1 Jet Stream. Because a Wall of Thorns can serve as a LOS blocker (but primarily opportunistic spike damage), only my zonal control Warlord and Earth Wizard sparingly uses any other walls (an Iron Golem corner kill zone can wall in enemy mage teleported in as alternative to Spike Pit and Transfusion Jinx Nullify).
Popular Flyers. Eagleclaw Boots. Teleport. These are the reasons why only Wall of Thorns is commonly played.
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The Warlord is built to play like a minis wargame but the game is more like Chess; you just need to kill the King and nobody cares about your hopeless board position.
This is VERY important in the meta. Mage Wars is a 'Kill the King' game. If terrain pieces are ever introduced, with victory points attached, then that might spin a different tale.
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I played some one a wizard facing a warlord. I was doing the mana ramp build he came up to zone block me [not with wall but, just conjuration) he put it summoning thing in my right side corner by me. I tossed down the the tower [b-3 area] with fireball so that corner was out of range baiting him to move there. He took the bait and I wall him in there. I then ported in 2 rock elements (few turns later) beating on him. I had very fun time. Earth mage with surprise.
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Huh. You kind of have to have line of sight to the zone you want to port into, which you don't if a wall is blocking it.
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Unless u used hug in the raven familiar.
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Ive been trying the central wall strategy w/ Warlord in order to set up an early defense for positioning and to biy time to ramp up.:
1. Walls of stone down the center ASAP. if starting in lower right (L), then build on left-edges of C,G,K:
ABCD
EFGH
IJKL
2. Archer towers in C & K. Probably 1 at first i think is more manageable.
3. Move to C or K to summon Grimson.
4. Either Gravikor in G, Barracks in H, the other tower + Slinger, depending on pressure..
Thoughts:
- walls of stone over steel for less cost.
- stone over pikes since they block LoS for opponent for teleports. And Pikes' attack ive found is not a big threat...big guys just walk through (Wish they had piercing!)
- probably need a few goblin builders running behind the walls for spot repairs on zones being attacked
- Only climbers can get through, so vulnerable strategy against solo mage w/ Eagleclaw Boots and the apes.
- probably other weaknesses i havent encountered
- The Ballista & Thrower arent too useful as they arent Indirect attacks :'(
- Gravikor would remove flying for those in zones B,E,F,J, even though behind the walls of stone, right?
- this is all to buy time to equip warlord and summon orcs and/or big guys for late onslaught. Although im afraid i havent figured out how to make it efficient enough where im not spending all my efforts fortifying...would be nice if archer's towers could be used by more than one archer per turn :-P
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Ive been trying the central wall strategy w/ Warlord in order to set up an early defense for positioning and to biy time to ramp up.:
I've played this style of build a couple of times and managed to pull at a win both times. I would suggest getting the walls up quickly and building the Tower NC and getting the sniper up and running quickly shot the mage nothing else. More than likely you will see a critter with Intercept come out. if that is the case build another tower and sniper and shot the mage. By this time your opponent will have gotten his opening out and his creatures up and running. You will quickly run out of time here as he will slowly take out your walls and send forth his counter attack. A couple well placed traps and decoys will slow him down a bit. Guard your snipers now and keep them blasting away at the mage. You might get lucky....
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Thanks sIKE
So focus on using archers as win condition instead? Hmm... i like w/ hawkeye, sniper shot on helm, release volley! to augment.
Maybe once a wall is breached, replace w/ less expensive wall o' pikes, spike pit, teleport trap, quicksand in the zone to be entered behind the wall...
After wall of pikes goes up, the ballista and/or slingers can come out.
I have only about 20 games or so with Warlord against a small pool of opponents, but it seems the huge drawback with this is luck and lack of flexibility. Maybe this strategy works better with someone other than Warlord?
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Thanks sIKE
So focus on using archers as win condition instead? Hmm... i like w/ hawkeye, sniper shot on helm, release volley! to augment.
Maybe once a wall is breached, replace w/ less expensive wall o' pikes, spike pit, teleport trap, quicksand in the zone to be entered behind the wall...
After wall of pikes goes up, the ballista and/or slingers can come out.
I have only about 20 games or so with Warlord against a small pool of opponents, but it seems the huge drawback with this is luck and lack of flexibility. Maybe this strategy works better with someone other than Warlord?
EVERY strategy works better with someone other than Warlord. :-\
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Nice strategy sIKE!
But do you think this strategy is dependent on opponent? I'd really like to see Warlord Archer Walled Fort work. But I think it's inconsistent. When I've tried it, I always encounter one of the many counters: Vampiress, Lord of Fire, Angel of Light, Gray Angel Avenger, Blue Gremlin, Eagle Wings (on Cevere or Galador to bypass guards), Huginn Teleport, Thoughtspore Force Push etc. Every book has a counter beyond Intercept or a Wall.
Also if you have Hawkeye Sniper Tower Near Centre to give enemy mage nowhere to hide, then where do you place the less threatening Slinger Tower when facing Intercept? The utterly ridiculous Outpost rule... And Intercept is saved for Grimson of course, not compulsory like distracting a guard with a Feral Bobcat. If you place a Tower on each Wall flank, then enemy mage is safe from Grimson in a corner and can be protected by an Intercept or just a Wall from the Slinger.
You can Helm Sniper Shot vs. Defence (but not other Commands like Piercing Strike) and you got Release Volley Battle Order so it can be a solid strategy against some books. It's a shame Unavoidable doesn't bypass Intercept (like Elusive with normal guards). The 4th Steel Wall can be cast in that quick action right after a breach. Force Wave cast by the Warlord on the other side would be nice etc. (Force Wave is always useful to position ranged full action units). Yeah I can see where this could go...
I'm not saying it's not solid. I tend to believe Grimson + Hawkeye is a great corner opening, next turn Tower, giving you board control over 9 squares. I now believe Thorg is best to protect him but 2 Steel Walls to enclose in an emergency is useful (e.g. last action Cheetah Speed Grizzly approaches from safe zone, next turn will be on Grimson first action unless you wall up Early QC). Falcons do it on a walled Sniper. Let's not talk about about Teleport as Warlord will be targeted instead for assassination. I really want Warlord Archer Walled Fort to work. But sadly I really don't think it does. My suspicion is currently (pre DvN), the best Warlord strategy is detailed in the thread below.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13017.0
Please can a designer explain to us:
1. why have Melee +1 but have a slant to turtle ranged as his best strategy?
2. why have Garrisons pump Barracks but only apply to Warlord's summons?
3. why give him a 2 handed weapon as a warrior yet a Horn as a general?
4. why his best troops either cost 5 (Bridge Trolls) or not soldiers (Golems)?
5. why battle orders promote stacking yet zonal control requires spreading?
6. how useful is veterans when few creatures get killed in a Big Few meta?
7. why the need to have the non-adjacent Outpost rule?
I could go on but those come to mind. I can just scream at deliberate anti-synergies (schizophrenic warrior general) built into this exciting concept that is every miniatures player's favourite. Every time I try to play him, I scream out "Aaaagh, what were the design team thinking?" And then I switch to Earth Wizard.
My biggest hate is that Outpost rule. This is a deliberate nerfing because obviously having them adjacent came off too powerful in testing. Really? If only this rule did not exist (and Garrison Posts applied to all summons), the Warlord would have so much more flexibility to play zonal control. The fact that they deliberately hobbled the Warlord out of competitiveness with an unnecessary nerf just makes me sad... :(
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I just reread Artemus' post. In a promo world of Gravikor and Ballista, this would work. My bad.
Gravikor is fine, hope in next set to make walls better, but Ballista will be nerfed before release.
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I just reread Artemus' post. In a promo world of Gravikor and Ballista, this would work. My bad.
Gravikor is fine, hope in next set to make walls better, but Ballista will be nerfed before release.
Has that been decided now? They always sound so defiant and resolved until they suddenly cave, hopefully they won't overreact this time like they did with Temple of Light.
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Thanks sIKE
So focus on using archers as win condition instead? Hmm... i like w/ hawkeye, sniper shot on helm, release volley! to augment.
Maybe once a wall is breached, replace w/ less expensive wall o' pikes, spike pit, teleport trap, quicksand in the zone to be entered behind the wall...
After wall of pikes goes up, the ballista and/or slingers can come out.
I have only about 20 games or so with Warlord against a small pool of opponents, but it seems the huge drawback with this is luck and lack of flexibility. Maybe this strategy works better with someone other than Warlord?
As I stated in my first comment on this thread, I have played against this style of deck with the Warlord as the opposing mage a couple of time. Each time the Warlord lost, and the games were long long 3-4 hours with me slowly grinding the opposing mage to bits. Not a lot of fun from my perspective, the player label it a "fun" build.
My observations were what I thought they did wrong and lead to their loss. If you get the walls up, you need to focus your energy on the death of the mage and protecting your snipers. As was pointed out placing of the Archers Towers are important but do allow for some board control. You might consider adding in a Blue Gremlin into the kit >:) buff him and send him though to terrorize your opponent "behind enemy lines"....
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Yeah i have to admit, it really seems more like a traditional Dwarvish strategy than Orcish. Especially when you conaider that the best archers are Dwarves, High Elves, soon Spitting Raptor maybe for armor (in an archer's tower! Lol) ... on the same token, adding in blue gremlins and apes might be good distractions.
Maybe with Dwarf Warlord release it will be more efficient...some more indirect attack options, like catapult w/ corrode maybe, etc. So it doesnt drag on for so long, which i agree, seems to be what im experiencing. Played a game Sunday w/ Stonewall Warlord v Temple Priestess w lots of angels. After about 2.5 hours i finally won via conceding because at the rate of damage and healing id eventually prob win, and that was with Warlord climbing over the wall to Dissolve Regrowth Belt and Sunfire Amulet near the end. Angels broke through only once, teleported one back out via trap, Pit stuck another which Golem and Warlord killed. Definitely needed the second tower and Gravikor and repairing goblins. Ballista wouldnt have done much really i think. A more aggresive build up front wouldve broke through sooner and ruined the whole initial setup i think...my opponent allowed me way too much time to set up defenses.
Back on the subject of walls, the new nature Bloodspine one is what i wanted wall of pikes to be :-)
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Back on the subject of walls, the new nature Bloodspine one is what i wanted wall of pikes to be :-)
I don't know nothing is as fun as a Disolve + WoT + Push with good planning and placement of your mage you can get a second one with the other mage armored up though....
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I like when my opponent uses a wall to corner himself. I run around using fast, or climb over them with boots. Throw a wall of thorns down and force them thru it. Usually an end game tactic. 10 attack die to a weak Mage often does serious damage. Its also nice to have a creature on the other side of thorns to prevent an escape.