This stems from a discussion over on BGG, where Ivan corrected me on the interactions between Slow and Fast, but I wanted to post it over here for a broader discussion.
Now I know Ivan is Ivan thus almost certainly correct, but the problem is I just don't get that from the rules as written. I presume it's come up in playtesting at some time, and Ivan will be right, but in which case, I feel the rules need rewriting to clarify - it basically all hinges on the word 'Cancel'
The essence of this was can you give a SLOW creature, two instances of FAST (from different sources, no duplicated objects) and thus make it FAST. I said Yes, Ivan corrected me to No:
Can I stack a fast effect to make a slow creature fast?
One 'Fast' effect doesn't make a Slow creature Fast - it just removes the Slow, making it 'normal' speed.
If you applied two DIFFERENT effects giving Fast, then yes - the first would make it 'normal' speed, and the second would make it Fast.
You couldn't use 2x Cheetah Speed but could use 1x Cheetah Speed, 1x Ballad of Courage for example.
Also remember that most Slow Creatures are non-Living/Psychic Immune, etc and can't receive most of these buffs. A few can like Hydra, Gorgon, Kraken, Leviathan...
Kelanen is wrong in this instance. There's no such thing as double fast. It doesn't stack. You either have the Fast trait or you don't. If you're getting it from two different sources, you still ONLY have the Fast trait. It'll cancel out the effect of the Slow trait, but you can never make a Slow creature Fast.
Traits are not Conditions. They do not stack, ever. Basically with a trait, you either have it or you don't. All traits are just single instances. However, if the trait includes a +/- variable, then they may be COMBINED to change the variable (see Page 7 of the rules about Combining Traits). So, if you have one instance of Melee +2, and another instance of Melee +1, you now have a single Melee +3 trait.
The only time they work like two different traits is when some traits come into existence mid action during a multi-attack action. Such as increasing your Melee +X trait between the first and second attacks of a Doublestrike. You're not allowed to apply Melee +X more than once, but the rules do specifically allow you to apply the new change to the second attack, working similar to a separate instance of the trait. But they are still in actuality a single trait. See page 5 of the Supplement. The bonus has increased and they are allowed to use this increase since it wasn't previously used, but it is still a single bonus. A single trait.
Interesting..., although I agree with you completely in generalities, that doesn't appear to be how Slow/Fast are written...
There's no such thing as double fast. It doesn't stack.
Completely agreed.
You either have the Fast trait or you don't.
Agreed.
If you're getting it from two different sources, you still ONLY have the Fast trait. It'll cancel out the effect of the Slow trait, but you can never make a Slow creature Fast.
This is the part that has made me believe differently. I'm sure you are right Ivan, but in which case I think the entries need rewriting/FAQ, because I have just reread the relevant entries and still don't come to that conclusion...
If a Slow creature gains the Fast trait, both are cancelled out
My take on it is that when you apply the FAST trait to a SLOW creature, they cancel out, and the creature no longer has either FAST or SLOW traits. This is why you can now apply a FAST trait to it again (since it doesn't currently have that) to make it FAST.
I guess the essence of this is whether a cancelled trait ceases to exist, or whether it's still there, but disabled? If it's been decided as the latter interpretation then I think the rules need to be much clearer on this. The general meaning of Cancel (admittedly not a keyword in this game, although it is in many others - perhaps why I am reading too much into it?) is that whatever is cancelled no longer exists.
It's a largely academic problem - I think there are only 3 different sources of Fast that could be applied, and you can't get 2 of them to affect most slow creatures (not to mention slow creatures often having full action attacks). I've never seen this done in a game, but I did think it was possible.
Out of interest did everyone else understand this as possible or not possible?
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