Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Zuberi on January 06, 2015, 03:41:08 PM
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I haven't scanned the entirety of the newly released Codex, but since the very first few pages stated that Sweeping had been clarified I did take a look at it. Overall, I think it is an improvement, but it could still cause some confusion with the following passages:
When a Flying creature uses a Sweeping attack, if the first target has Flying, the second target must also have Flying. Similarly, if the first target does not have Flying, the second target must also not have Flying.
If a creature uses a Sweeping attack that also has Reach or a Sweeping ranged attack, then the above restriction does not apply; the second target can be Flying or non-Flying, independent of the first target.
From what I understand, Reach does not negate the above restriction like this says. The only thing that Reach does is allow you to attack a Flying target, which flyers can already do. It thus has no effect on flyers. A Flying creature with Reach would have to attack only flyers with their Sweeping attack, because Reach does not allow them to attack non-flyers.
Now, a non-flyer with Reach could attack both, but the listed restriction does not apply to non-flyers anyways. Meaning, all mention of Reach is still unwarranted. A flyer who attacks a non-flyer loses the flying trait, and would then be able to utilize Reach to hit a second flying target with their Sweeping attack, but since they are now a non-flyer themselves and there is no restriction preventing a non-flyer from doing such a thing anyways, they don't need a special clause to over come a non-existent restriction.
This has actually all been discussed beforehand, which is why I'm a little confused by the update. Unless you guys have changed your stance on this, and are going to allow flyers to attack non-flyers without losing the flying trait first, then the codex entry should omit the mention of Reach entirely and only specify that ranged Sweeping attacks allow you to negate the stated restriction on flyers.
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It reads like reach is being more explicitly broadened to essentially 'cross the land/air divide' in both directions:
Currently the codex states that reach allows melee attacks to target and attack flying creatures in that zone (otherwise prevented unless creature has flying).
So following the logic without the sweeping/reach clarifications
Flying creatures attacks ground creature - looses flying - goes to attack flying creature with second attack from sweep...can't as it's lost flying. Reach as written allows the melee attack from a non-flying creature to attack a flying creature. Sorted.
What feels new is:
Flying creature attacks flying creature - sweeping clarification states that second sweep attack must be flying; expect that reach allows the attack to be on a ground creature. This does seem different to how reach is defined. I guess though it would seem a semantic distinction to say if can only happen in a ground to air sequence rather than air to ground....
Sorry was working it out as I typed so hope it still makes sense.
Just thinking thought that they aren't saying that reach allows a flying creature to attack ground creatures without losing flying (which would be cool but quite powerful).
Essentially the clarification means normally sweep happens on the same plane (air to air+air, air to ground+ground). Sweeping has clarified that reach can break this, but hasn't changed other rules. As you say, air to ground + air is already allowed, but air to air+ground wouldn't have been.
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The change to Sweeping was to make it optional. However, thank you for bringing this up. I'll have to review the rulings again to ensure things are correct.
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It sounds like there are 4 types of sweeping interactions being clarified here.
1. Melee Sweeping
2. Sweeping with reach
3. Sweeping when flying
4. Ranged Sweeping
Perhaps a table view would make it easier to see the targeting choices. For example, rows would be Melee and Ranged (attack types) while columns would be Sweeping, Sweeping and Reach, Sweeping and Flying (traits).
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Essentially the clarification means normally sweep happens on the same plane (air to air+air, air to ground+ground). Sweeping has clarified that reach can break this, but hasn't changed other rules. As you say, air to ground + air is already allowed, but air to air+ground wouldn't have been.
Reach has to break the other rules in order to function that way though. If a flying creature wants to make a sweeping reach attack against first a flying creature and then a non-flying creature, it will have to attack the non-flyer while it itself is still flying. A creature can not gain or lose flying in the middle of an attack, and thus it can not land to hit the non-flyer like it normally would have if the non-flyer had been the first target. Therefore, either it can't hit the non-flyer, or Reach would allow a flying creature to hit a non-flyer without landing (thus preventing counterattacks). If Reach were to allow such an interaction with Sweeping, it would also then open the question why it can't do so with a non-Sweeping attack.
This has actually already been discussed in great detail. See >>>here.<<< (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13270.msg32870#msg32870) I'm just double checking that they haven't changed their mind on it, because the updated codex still creates confusion regarding the matter.
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I don't think its meant to be that complicated. Essentially the clarification indicates that sweeping can only occur in a single plane (i.e. in the sense of attack 1 and 2, its air + air, or ground + ground). However, creatures with ranged or reach attacks can go ninja and have the option of sweeping between planes/modes; air + ground or ground + air.
It sounds like there are 4 types of sweeping interactions being clarified here.
1. Melee Sweeping
2. Sweeping with reach
3. Sweeping when flying
4. Ranged Sweeping
Perhaps a table view would make it easier to see the targeting choices. For example, rows would be Melee and Ranged (attack types) while columns would be Sweeping, Sweeping and Reach, Sweeping and Flying (traits).
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That is indeed the way it reads, Moonglow. But it needs the added complication of figuring out whether the attacker has flying or not while making these attacks so that we know how to treat certain actions and effects. There's three possibilities (all referring to a flyer attacking air + ground):
1) Reach allows the flyer to attack ground units while flying, thus preventing things like counterstrike. If this is the case with Sweeping, why wouldn't Reach have the same effect on non-Sweeping attacks?
2) Reach allows the flyer to land in the middle of an attack in order to attack the ground unit, completely violating that sacred cow.
3) The flyer could not attack air + ground due to previous rulings preventing both of the above from occurring, meaning the codex entry still has some misleading confusion.
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mmm I'm confused - aren't the attacks essentially separate (both start from the declare attack stage), so the flying creature can lose flying when attacking the ground creature (see point below where I ask this better I think).
Laddinfance uses this example in his clarification you link to:
Laddin: Also, in order for a Flying creature with a Sweeping Melee attack with reach to attack both Flying and non-Flying targets then they will have to lose Flying (presumably by attacking the non-Flying creature first).
He does agree with you later though that:
You: if a flying creature with reach attacks another flying creature, they would not be able to make a secondary attack (sweeping or battle fury) against a non-flying creature, correct?
Laddin: Yes
It seems like the Flying reach sweeping attack ground 1st, air 2nd works with the rules as stated (although as you note, probably doesnt need stating). Creature attacks to ground, loses flying, but has reach to allow second attack on flying creature.
The reverse seems new, but doesn't seem to break other rules or be contradictory with the other posts:
flying reach sweeping attacks air 1st (allowable) ...
actually perhaps this is the point you're debating - on page 2 other thread you state:
Therefore, if your first attack is against a flying creature, none of your additional attacks can be against non-flying creatures because you can not give up the flying trait to land and hit them.
Why not? I understand sweeping ... ok Codex says, A sweeping attack is one attack action with two attacks...
Can you not loose flying during an attack or an attack action? Laddinfance's example above suggests you can..?
Essentially the clarification means normally sweep happens on the same plane (air to air+air, air to ground+ground). Sweeping has clarified that reach can break this, but hasn't changed other rules. As you say, air to ground + air is already allowed, but air to air+ground wouldn't have been.
Reach has to break the other rules in order to function that way though. If a flying creature wants to make a sweeping reach attack against first a flying creature and then a non-flying creature, it will have to attack the non-flyer while it itself is still flying. A creature can not gain or lose flying in the middle of an attack, and thus it can not land to hit the non-flyer like it normally would have if the non-flyer had been the first target. Therefore, either it can't hit the non-flyer, or Reach would allow a flying creature to hit a non-flyer without landing (thus preventing counterattacks). If Reach were to allow such an interaction with Sweeping, it would also then open the question why it can't do so with a non-Sweeping attack.
This has actually already been discussed in great detail. See >>>here.<<< (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13270.msg32870#msg32870) I'm just double checking that they haven't changed their mind on it, because the updated codex still creates confusion regarding the matter.
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I think its point 2 - but the linch pin is the losing flying during the attack action, not the attack - which makes sense here while maintaining the integrity of counterstrikes etc.
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For a Flying creature to make a melee attack against a non-Flying creature, it must lose the Flying trait until the end of that attack action and is affected by damage barriers and counterstrikes as normal (the flyer must swoop down into reach to make the attack). A creature cannot gain or lose the Flying trait in the middle of an attack action. For example, if a creature gains Flying in the middle of an attack action, the entire attack action is resolved as if the creature did not have Flying, and the Flying trait is gained after that attack action is complete.
Quick reference for those of us at home with the bucket o' pop
Get'em Zuberi
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I must be looking at an older rulebook Kharhaz as it still only refers to not losing/gaining flying during an attack, rather than an attack action. That does make it... hmmm actually why does it matter?
A flying creature can target and attack a ground creature yes? The condition that the creature losing flying may not happen isnt any different to a spell effect not taking place until the action is resolved, it doesn't negate the action (unless the target becomes invalid).
That seems to make the issue more like Zuberi notes, why does reach do this/allow this during sweeping, but not during a normal reach attack?
Isn't it more a case that in both cases the creature loses flying, but it doesn't take effect until the end of the attack (action).
hmmm I can see the confusion, but still think it makes sense. But that might be just being obtuse :)
For a Flying creature to make a melee attack against a non-Flying creature, it must lose the Flying trait until the end of that attack action and is affected by damage barriers and counterstrikes as normal (the flyer must swoop down into reach to make the attack). A creature cannot gain or lose the Flying trait in the middle of an attack action. For example, if a creature gains Flying in the middle of an attack action, the entire attack action is resolved as if the creature did not have Flying, and the Flying trait is gained after that attack action is complete.
Quick reference for those at home with the bucket o' pop
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Just to clarify; the rules state:
For example, if a creature gains Flying in the middle of an attack action, the entire attack action is resolved as if the creature did not have Flying, and the Flying trait is gained after that attack action is complete.
So presumably the reverse is true (or the same is true for losing flying in the middle of an attack action).
Flying creature (with reach I guess, but it doesn't matter) attacks ground creature, loses flying trait until end of attack. Even if it was a triple strike and a flying trait was added mid attack (somehow) the state remains unflying until end of attack action.
Flying creature (with reach or ranged - only matters since the codex made these the only times cross plane sweeping attacks were allowed) makes a sweeping attack first on air target, all fine. Second on ground target - should lose flying trait, but flying state doesn't change until end of attack action.
Still seems reasonable?
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I guess I'm mostly working from the general guide that actions/spells in MW should work like you'd expect them to.
So a creature with reach or ranged it makes sense that they can sweep/attack both air or ground creatures - the direction/order of attacks shouldn't matter. Making the order of attack matter seems to disadvantage flying trait creatures, although letting them keep flying (effectively) does negate counterstrike from ground creatures.
I'd also be still stuck answering Zuberi's question of why can't a flying creature do this with reach normally, why only with sweeping.
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It makes sense with a flying ranged sweep, like Selesius, but is inconsistent with the flying trait in instances with a flying melee sweep with reach.
A sweeping attack (from a flyer) with reach, can hit a flyer first, then a ground target without losing the flying trait according to the new codex. Which as the 3.3 web rules would lead me to believe that the ground target is not a legal target for the sweep because the creature cannot lose flying to make that attack as sweep is one attack action.
In fact, if it was two attack actions there would be no issue at all
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Just cause its 4.15 on the first week back at work and I'm procrastinating...
The 3.0 rules (I had 2.0, thanks for the update :)) state:
For a Flying creature to make a melee attack against a non-Flying creature, it must lose the Flying trait until the end of that attack action and is affected by damage barriers and counterstrikes as normal (the flyer must swoop down into reach to make the attack).
The must is emphasised in the book. I'm going to be pedantic here and ask what must means :) The ground creature is a legal target for the attack - the rules don't say that ground creatures cannot be targeted or attacked by creatures with the flying trait until they've lost flying.
In my head the sweeping ranged clarificaiton in the codex means that the flying creature has lost the flying trait, but because it can't loose the trait mid attack action, is still flying.
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Would it work to make Reach the equivalent traits of a 0-0 Ranged attack?
Although that might create lots of weird interactions between intercepts and blocks etc.
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The must is emphasized to mean that it can not attack a non-flyer unless it loses the flying trait. If it is unable to do so, then it is unable to attack. Otherwise, the must could have been left out and they could have simply said that they do lose flying when attacking a non-flyer.
It would certainly be possible for them to change the Reach rule to allow the interaction you stated. That is partly the impetus for my question, to see if they had done so. Such a change would have several consequences on the game though, and so I doubt such a change is intended. I believe it was simply an oversight and that the previous rulings are still correct. Meaning that a flyer is not allowed to make an air + ground melee attack, regardless of reach.
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I do not really feel like debating this issue further though. You can feel free to read the thread I linked to, which I think you've already done. I believe that presents a pretty thorough argument for the issues involved and it eventually received an official ruling on the matter. The only question is whether or not that ruling has changed.
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But could make a ground to air sweep....? (as reach allows non flying creatures (lost flying trait when attacked ground creature) to attack air....
I guess I can visualise the swoop and attack with the stab/thrust upwards... but it seems a little arbitrary to rule out the converse.
It might make reach much more useful, as essentially if your opponents flying creatures have sweeping and reach, you'd need reach to counterstrike them.... but then again, it only applies if you've got flying creatures in the same zone that they can sweep attack first... so a fairly easy situation to avoid/respond to.
The must is emphasized to mean that it can not attack a non-flyer unless it loses the flying trait. If it is unable to do so, then it is unable to attack. Otherwise, the must could have been left out and they could have simply said that they do lose flying when attacking a non-flyer.
It would certainly be possible for them to change the Reach rule to allow the interaction you stated. That is partly the impetus for my question, to see if they had done so. Such a change would have several consequences on the game though, and so I doubt such a change is intended. I believe it was simply an oversight and that the previous rulings are still correct. Meaning that a flyer is not allowed to make an air + ground melee attack, regardless of reach.
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Fair enough, I enjoyed the chat though and alleviated some boredom :) and yeah, I did read the thread; although not sure I found all the answers to counterstrike and damage barrier. I can see why you ask the question, and have learned about some rule clarifications/improvements along the way, so thanks :)
I do not really feel like debating this issue further though. You can feel free to read the thread I linked to, which I think you've already done. I believe that presents a pretty thorough argument for the issues involved and it eventually received an official ruling on the matter. The only question is whether or not that ruling has changed.
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In my head the sweeping ranged clarificaiton in the codex means that the flying creature has lost the flying trait, but because it can't loose the trait mid attack action, is still flying.
my mind read that as it could not attack the legal target because it cannot lose the flying trait in order to do so.
And there lies the confusion. I am not arguing your logic, or really anything come to think of it, I can see it going either way and that is where we need a rules clarification on intent vs wording vs Zuberi :D
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Guess I'm leaning more to Zuberi's argument/line of thought now though as it doesn't make sense to be flying when you've lost flying. Where as not flying when you've gained flying is more a timing thing.
The flying without having the flying trait seems more broken then requiring a certain order for sweet/reach air to ground attacks.
I think Zuberi also nailed it a little with the call that 'must' lose flying is a necessary condition/requirement for the action. Else as he notes, it could just read 'lose flying'. So it is essentially saying, Creatures with flying trait cannot target non flying creatures with melee attacks. (since you lose the flying trait when you declare attack presumably, making the grounded creature a legal target).
In my head the sweeping ranged clarificaiton in the codex means that the flying creature has lost the flying trait, but because it can't loose the trait mid attack action, is still flying.
my mind read that as it could not attack the legal target because it cannot lose the flying trait in order to do so.
And there lies the confusion. I am not arguing your logic, or really anything come to think of it, I can see it going either way and that is where we need a rules clarification on intent vs wording vs Zuberi :D
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The change to Sweeping was to make it optional. That was the purposeful change. Obviously I'm going to be double checking the rulings, but this was not meant to contradict previous rulings, simply to change the text to allow Sweeping to be optional.
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What If you had updated reach so flying units could 'reach' non-flying units then what you are seeking would be done.
(it would require that the old entry for sweeping was removed.)
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What If you had updated reach so flying units could 'reach' non-flying units then what you are seeking would be done.
(it would require that the old entry for sweeping was removed.)
I was thinking that this was sort of spinning wheels till I looked up and saw that there are currently two creatures with Reach. [mwcard=DNC06]Kralathor, The Devourer[/mwcard] and [mwcard=DNC18]Togorah, Forest Sentinel[/mwcard], you could put [mwcard=MW1E13]Eagle Wings[/mwcard] on either of them and the question now becomes relevant. I can see it going either way, but the ruling for Reach and/or Sweeping should be updated to answer this interesting corner case.
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As i remember Togorah has a Rooted trait, so how could he benefit from Eagle Wings?
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As i remember Togorah has a Rooted trait, so how could he benefit from Eagle Wings?
When you pay the uproot cost Togorah loses the rooted trait until the end of the round and, if it has eagle wings, would then be flying until the rooted trait comes back at the end of the round
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As i remember Togorah has a Rooted trait, so how could he benefit from Eagle Wings?
I didn't say it was logical or worth it, just that these were the two creatures that currently have the Reach trait.
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What If you had updated reach so flying units could 'reach' non-flying units then what you are seeking would be done.
(it would require that the old entry for sweeping was removed.)
I was thinking that this was sort of spinning wheels till I looked up and saw that there are currently two creatures with Reach. [mwcard=DNC06]Kralathor, The Devourer[/mwcard] and [mwcard=DNC18]Togorah, Forest Sentinel[/mwcard], you could put [mwcard=MW1E13]Eagle Wings[/mwcard] on either of them and the question now becomes relevant. I can see it going either way, but the ruling for Reach and/or Sweeping should be updated to answer this interesting corner case.
If reach ends up working like that, I don't think it will make Kralathor OP. Specifically, if a ruling ends up allowing flying creatures with the reach trait to melee attack non-flying creatures, and you give kralathor flying, the only difference from how it would have worked before is that the creatures he melee attacks won't be able to counterstrike. Since he's usually attacking smaller creatures from swarms in order to get growth markers, and those creatures often die before they can counterstrike, and when they do manage to get a counterstrike in, the regen and armor usually make them mostly ineffective, I would say this probably isn't that much of a powerup for kralathor, even if you're out of dispels for their eagle wings.
Then again, armory- and standard bearer-boosted soldiers and fire imps might wish they could counterstrike. The question is how much do they wish they could counterstrike? How much of a difference would that make?
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If reach ends up working like that, I don't think it will make Kralathor OP. Specifically, if a ruling ends up allowing flying creatures with the reach trait to melee attack non-flying creatures, and you give kralathor flying, the only difference from how it would have worked before is that the creatures he melee attacks won't be able to counterstrike....
If a Mage with a Mage Staff melee attacks a flying creature, doesn't the flying creature get to use any hypothetical Counterstrike trait or Damage Barrier that it happens to have? It is a melee attack, after all.
If this attacked creature does get to Counterstrike or use a Damage Barrier's attack against such a Mage, why wouldn't a non-flier target creature not get these against an attacking flyer with a Reach attack?
Maybe I misunderstand reach?
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If a non flyer uses reach to melee attack a flyer, the flyer would not be able to counterstrike it's attacker because they are out of range. It would be able to use damage barrier though because that doesn't care about range. I can't speak for arcane wonders, but I believe they want to limit ways to avoid counterstrike in general but especially when associated with guards.
Currently this is a niche situation and wouldn't cause much difference either way. However we have to also think towards the future when more creatures could take advantage. Such as the male force master we think can fly.