Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: jacksmack on August 22, 2013, 08:19:05 AM
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Did any 1 come up with some use for Meditation Amulet?
I think i managed to come up with 2 different uses for it.
1 aggressive and 1 turtle supah strong pew pew nothing can kill me build.
Any 1 on OCTGN from 3 hours and on and fancy to test it?
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Now that Meditation Amulet is going to be in the new set, has ANYONE found a use for the thing, or at least any reason to use it over Moonglow Amulet? (3x v 2x cost for Warlord doesn't count).
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Promo lets you pay 1-2 spell points, 1 quick action, 4 mana and neck slot for no payback, just the ability to spend 1 full action for +3 mana.
We are assuming the officially released Meditation Amulet is the promo. I know we had a Director saying promos aren't beta-testing and will be released exactly as is. But Ballista, Iron Guard, Akiro's Favour etc suggest that they will make changes before release.
The Druid is best placed to use it as she has vines, 2 Tree spawnpoints, 6 Pods and Felella. She does not need to move as she has vine range QC spells, her spawnpoints and Pixie enchantments. But it limits her to plant spells only, there is no plant Dispel or plant Teleport.
The Necromancer has his 2 spawnpoints too so he could use it for a creature build. Perhaps a Skeleton Fort which is very sedentary with Knight guards and Archers adjacent to Altar of Skulls in the centre of a corner "L" (where Mort and Acolytes are also placed, surrounded by 2 Wall of Bones). But the set-up time for that Fort is so long.
We are getting excited about new cards but they are spawnpoint-driven. We all know an aggressive Warlock, Forcemaster or Beastmaster can currently shred a spawnpoint opening. There has been no new tech spoilt to make spawnpoints more viable. The only hope from the list is a beefed-up Meditation Amulet.
The promo is simply strictly worse than Moonglow's no action +1 mana per turn. If they raised the ability to 5 per full action then it would be played in mid range spawnpoint builds. But as it is? I just can't see it being preferred.
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Promo lets you pay 1-2 spell points, 1 quick action, 4 mana and neck slot for no payback, just the ability to spend 1 full action for +3 mana.
We are assuming the officially released Meditation Amulet is the promo. I know we had a Director saying promos aren't beta-testing and will be released exactly as is. But Ballista, Iron Guard, Akiro's Favour etc suggest that they will make changes before release.
The Druid is best placed to use it as she has vines, 2 Tree spawnpoints, 6 Pods and Felella. She does not need to move as she has vine range QC spells, her spawnpoints and Pixie enchantments. But it limits her to plant spells only, there is no plant Dispel or plant Teleport.
The Necromancer has his 2 spawnpoints too so he could use it for a creature build. Perhaps a Skeleton Fort which is very sedentary with Knight guards and Archers adjacent to Altar of Skulls in the centre of a corner "L" (where Mort and Acolytes are also placed, surrounded by 2 Wall of Bones). But the set-up time for that Fort is so long.
We are getting excited about new cards but they are spawnpoint-driven. We all know an aggressive Warlock, Forcemaster or Beastmaster can currently shred a spawnpoint opening. There has been no new tech spoilt to make spawnpoints more viable. The only hope from the list is a beefed-up Meditation Amulet.
The promo is simply strictly worse than Moonglow's no action +1 mana per turn. If they raised the ability to 5 per full action then it would be played in mid range spawnpoint builds. But as it is? I just can't see it being preferred.
I really hope they've improved it significantly. One full action is not worth +2 mana over moonglow.
I was pretty sad when I saw this listed over another new water attack. =\
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Just thought I'd pop in and mention that the DvN unboxing video posted on the MW Facebook page clearly shows the Meditation Amulet--unchanged from the promo version.
Just another card to set aside and never use, in an overall rather good-looking expansion.
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Good spot Indy! :(
I wasn't happy with Stumble taking up promo space either.
Stumble: Mind 1 cost 2+1 may reveal when activated to deny move action for that action then destroy it, flyers and unmovable immune
Force Hold: Mind 2 cost 2+2 may reveal when activated to gain restrained and unmovable, upkeep 3
The versatility of Force Hold is so much better (especially as if you pay the upkeep, you are baiting a Dispel).
So they have given a far weaker spell points affordable version to all mages, diluting what makes FM special.
I was hoping for promos that will shake up the meta like Altar of Peace and Gravikor, both of which make whole new builds possible (like Warlord Fort with Gravikor). Instead we get a downgrade like Stumble and this Amulet.
But more worrying is a lack of tech to make spawnpoints more playable. But that's a subject for another thread.
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I haven't played with it yet, but stumble looks to me like a gift to golem pit, actually. Lets you stack immobilising enchantments, and it's pretty cheap.
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Ring, you are right. I know it's good for Golem Pit with its Transfusion (Jinx + Nullify + Stumble + Force Hold). But is it good for the game? Corrode. Etherian Lifetree. Cloak of Shadows (Dark Mage Only). Is it enough to nerf the strategy? Crucially, both new mages are stay at home generals who, given time, would send out an army to overwhelm you. So you can't give them time, you need to be more aggressive.
I am plotting something silly like Earth Wizard with a Wand of Force Wave behind 4 Jelly while 4 Golems each guard Orb, Idol, Deathlock and Forge. I can threaten casting another copy of Force Wave to surprise move the 4x Jelly 2 zones with Wand QC, move 1 and hard cast. The threat of that double move for 4 Jelly attacks is powerful. I want to call it "Carpet Jelly" as it will be like vacuum cleaning the arena! :)
Great in theory but sadly the 4 Jelly will have problems disengaging from arena edges and turning around a corner. Just like an old style vacuum cleaner! However, I suspect Force Wave will be played a lot more, both by and against the Necromancer's Lumbering Zombies.
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When I can get a crack at the new metagame, I'm going to be testing direct damage Lightning and Fire Wizards, as well as Fire Warlock and... fire forcemaster?
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However, I suspect Force Wave will be played a lot more, both by and against the Necromancer's Lumbering Zombies.
Too true. This is the very big negative to giving half of a mages army the same negative trait. One properly placed Force Wave and you can give the Necro's army quite the setback. Can the same be said for the Druid and one card? Gate to hell maybe, but it's a huge mana cost and gamble compared to the cheap wave.
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The promo is simply strictly worse than Moonglow's no action +1 mana per turn. If they raised the ability to 5 per full action then it would be played in mid range spawnpoint builds. But as it is? I just can't see it being preferred.
Hey, don't blame me, I didn't do it ;)
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Perhaps the meditation amulet would be useful if you want extra mana for a spell cast by a familiar or spawnpoint while you have some means of protecting your mage? Maybe if the paladin people have been talking about has a durable horse familiar he could use the meditation amulet to help pay for the spells of his steed. While the paladin is riding his steed, he wouldn't need to use his own actions to move. And then by the time something happens to prevent him from riding around on his steed, the paladin might have stored up plenty of mana for his own spells.
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The problem with Meditation Amulet
(a) you make no profit until you have spent 1 quick action (to cast) and 2 full actions (even then you are +2)
(b) how often will you use it? You need to use it more than once every 3 rounds for it gain you more mana than Moonglow
(c) your mage full action is your most valuable resource, you don't sell it so cheaply!
Think about how much you pay (quick action, spell points, mana) to deny the opponent the next unknown quick spell using a Jinx. How much would you pay to deny a full action?
Maybe the Druid or a Skeleton Fort Necro could use this. But it's just too restrictive. Give me a free action +1 per turn anytime.
They should have pitched it at 5 or 6. At 6, Shad0w tells us it just wasn't used during playtesting (I can believe it). Makes me wonder why they wasted card space on it if playesting found 6 wasn't good enough.
There is very little love for Holy Mages in this set (Renewing Rain is hybrid 3 points), just Cloak's Light-2 hate. I wish they had put Altar of Peace as it creates so many new high skill control strategies. Altar of Peace is Epic (2 copies) so it leaves room for a 65th different card: Gravikor is another game changer. This is needed by Warlord Pop-Up Sniper Fortress. Oh well, opportunity lost, we have what we have.
Ok, so they made a mistake here but let's not belabour the point. They have created an ambitious new set. Let's focus on the positives?
As Tom Vassel said: "every mage plays differently". 10 mages, 10 styles, that's pretty impressive. They should be forgiven a few Stumbles.
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Perhaps this Amulet has a use for managing mana in the deployment phase for use with multiple spawnpoints. Since these don't require an action during the round, the Druid can cast more spells in a turn than was previously possible. The limit of course being mana not actions during the deployment phase. If the Druid uses the Meditation Amulet every other turn it can provide a mana spike that might synchronize with the spawnpoint cycle.
Just speculating here. I haven't done the math, but the purpose might be to impact a deployment phase cycle of spell casting rather than actions during the round.
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If the playtesters didnt manage to find a use for the meditation amulet with 6 mana return on every FA spend, then they used it the wrong way.
6 mana return would be an absolute bomb!
This card is very different from mana crystal and moonglow amulet.
Both those cards give a better payoff in the long run if we assume that you stop meditating eventually.
Im not saying that the current amulet is worth playing - but its pretty damn close.
Putting down a spawnpoint to pump out creatures for you, while you meditate allows for a quicker recovery from the initial manasink that putting a harmnonized spawnpoint into play is.
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If the playtesters didnt manage to find a use for the meditation amulet with 6 mana return on every FA spend, then they used it the wrong way.
6 mana return would be an absolute bomb!
This card is very different from mana crystal and moonglow amulet.
Both those cards give a better payoff in the long run if we assume that you stop meditating eventually.
Im not saying that the current amulet is worth playing - but its pretty damn close.
Putting down a spawnpoint to pump out creatures for you, while you meditate allows for a quicker recovery from the initial mana sink that putting a harmnonized spawnpoint into play is.
Problem is the value of a full actions. Often when the other player rushes you the number of full action you have to spare is almost 0. When being chased by a aggressive book stabilizing, and surviving should the your top priorities. Now the downside is if the other player lets you bide your time 5-6 mana extra mana a turn is will easily win you the game.
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I haven't played with Meditation Amulet,and I didn't get a chance to test it (I'm going to try to limit my public analysis to those cards on which I have no inside knowledge), but it's a tricky design with a very narrow sweet spot. I think it basically has to be balanced assuming that the mage that plays it doesn't care at all about the full actions it costs to use, only the mana payoff vs investment. That's because if any such "do nothing" strategy emerged, the Amulet could easily be a source of very strong mana advantage, and become a staple of the build.
So, for example, if turtle Warlord, Druid, or Wizard became viable, Amulet might go from "totally useless" to "gamebreaking" without any acceptable buffer between.
Given that, and the fact that it was already released as a promo, Amulet didn't have much wiggle room at all. Double Tree Druid seems like the best possible strategy for Amulet, so if it wasn't printed now, then when?
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I agree with Ringkichard that setting the mana generation per action too high on Meditation Amulet could lead to significant problems.
My big issue with the amulet is not so much the amount of mana that it generates, but the initial cost. In order to come out ahead on mana, you need to spend a quick action and 2 full actions, which is way too high of an investment for most situations. Your opponent can see you play Meditation Amulet and rush you before you have a chance to take advantage of it, in which case it's a liability.
If it generated 6 mana per action, it seems like your opponent would be forced to rush you in response to Meditation Amulet (or play one of their own) so that you wouldn't generate an insurmountable mana advantage.
If Meditation Amulet only cost 1 or 2 mana, then you would come out ahead on mana with 1 quick and 1 full action, which would be a more acceptable return on investment. I don't think decreasing the mana cost by 2-3 would make it broken by any means, and it would be more viable for spawnpoint play. Moonglow Amulet takes 6 turns to pay back the initial mana investment, but it only costs 1 quick action, so the investment is actually smaller against a rush, where actions are more valuable than mana.
I'm not sure how much I would use it if it cost 1-2, but I would be tempted to try it for spawnpoint builds. As it is, I don't see a reason to ever play it over Moonglow Amulet.
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Your garden-variety, +x channeling mana rock takes a quick action plus seven to eight rounds to generate the same profit from one quick and two full actions. And this is sans Battleforge or Arcane Ring. So there's that.
But the thing that gets overlooked IMO is that this investment return is instantaneous. It isn't progressive, happens immediately, and as a result isn't an awful card to play past the early game. Also, it's not a stat boost, so oddly enough it can dodge stuff like mana siphon.
Spellbooks that have action replacement are the likely candidates for this. Aggressive mages won't tolerate the tempo loss. Not everyone wants it, but I don't think this is all that terrible.
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Your garden-variety, +x channeling mana rock takes a quick action plus seven to eight rounds to generate the same profit from one quick and two full actions. And this is sans Battleforge or Arcane Ring. So there's that.
But the thing that gets overlooked IMO is that this investment return is instantaneous. It isn't progressive, happens immediately, and as a result isn't an awful card to play past the early game. Also, it's not a stat boost, so oddly enough it can dodge stuff like mana siphon.
Spellbooks that have action replacement are the likely candidates for this. Aggressive mages won't tolerate the tempo loss. Not everyone wants it, but I don't think this is all that terrible.
The problem with Meditation amulet isn't that you can theoretically get a lot of mana out of it and recover your initial investment in a few turns, it is that it takes up your full action every turn to do it.
First, say you're a Druid that uses Vine Tree, Druid's Leaf Ring, Taratree, and Mana Flower. Turn 1 Ring + Tree, Turn 2 Taratree + Flower. This costs you a total of 20 mana. Every turn after the first you make 1 from treebond and the Tree makes 1. Every turn after the second you man an additional 1 from the Flower and the tree makes an additional 1 from Taratree. If you cast at least 1 plant spell from turn 3 onwards you will recover your mana investment on turn 6 (gaining 2 mana out of it), and your action investment is recovered on turn 5.
Now, say you're a Druid who uses 2 trees and the Meditation amulet (and probably also Taratree). You spend 4 quick casts getting everything out for a total cost of 27 mana. Turn 1 both Trees, turn 2 amulet and Taratree. From turn 2 onwards you make 1 mana from Treebond and both trees make 1. From turn 3 onward one of the trees makes an additional mana. Without meditating your mana investment is returned on turn 8. Obviously you'd want to meditate enough to gain a mana advantage over the above scenario. So in order to recoup your mana investment by turn 5 would require you to meditate 4 times (which is actually impossible). So the soonest you can recoup your mana investment is turn 6 (the same as in the above scenario) by meditating 3 times (giving you a total of 28 mana, or -1 from the above scenario). So now you're spending 4 quick casts and 3 full actions, and your trees give you a total of 7 useable deployments (5 immediate from the Vine Tree [assuming you don't use it to cast Seedling Pods], and the Samara Tree gives you 2 pods that are ready by turn 6) so you more or less break even in terms of actions (though not being able to move for 3 turns could potentially put you at a positional disadvantage).
(Note: Taratree could be replaced by a harmonize or mana flower without causing any meaningful difference between the two scenarios).
So at 6 turns in without the amulet you've gotten +2 mana and +1 action. At 6 turns in with the amulet (and both trees to make up for the actions) you're only at +1 mana and +0 actions. This indicates that the earliest a Druid could see returns in either mana or actions while using the amulet would be turn 7. And the Druid is the one with the tools to best use this amulet so far! The only other mage who can use 2 spawnpoints with this amulet is the Necromancer (Battleforge does NOT synergize with Meditation Amulet at all), and his spawnpoints can only summon creatures as opposed to any vine/plant (not to mention the appeal of one of them is negated by being immobile while meditating). Plus the Druid is the only mage who can extend the reach of her spells, including spawnpoint deployments, without moving (with Spreading Vines).
Unfortunately having to wait seven turns for a benefit just paints a giant target on your back to come and kill you immediately. On turn 3 or 4 when an attack is likely to start you won't have the mana to respond. Now after the first turn you'd be unlikely to actually summon the Meditation Amulet if your opponent didn't play +channeling spells, though then you'd have trouble utilizing both of your trees. The problem is that even other slow builds would be significantly faster, and all they'd have to do is prevent you from being able to use your full action to meditate to shut you down. All around it's very very risky for limited benefit until the late game (which is assuming you even survive that long).
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Why do I like Amulet so much?
For one reason: Spawnpoints. In a big creature spawnpoint strategy, often times you are doing absolutely nothing with your full action. This can avoided by waiting longer to summon said creature, but time has become a very serious resource to consider when playing Mage Wars. Meditation amulet really cures a lot of the ache of wasting your actions. I mean think about it. Turn one I go all out and cast harm + Lair. I'm at zero mana. The next turn, I effectively have 12 mana, provided I summon a creature in the deployment phase. So what can I do? Summon a falcon, have 6 mana left over, and I can cast both amulet and Enchanter's ring. Next round, I can not only spend 12 mana on a creature by using my entire mana+ channeling. I can also gain 3 mana to use on the NEXT round. If I cast an enchant on myself or another friendly, I'm now effectively at 14 mana for the next round. I can drop another fatty, and still have mana left over.
It's a situational card, yes. But it's not a useless card by any means, can make others inefficient strategies a ton more efficient. Sure, it may not be worth the full action according to some chart, but what good is a full action if you have absolutely nothing to do with it? Amulet fills those gaps.
I thought it was worthless as well, until I really started playing with it. It makes me a lot happier after actually trying it.
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I have used a warlock build using the amulet on turn 1 and building up mana until turn five then dual cast drain life and drain soul on opp mage with great effectiveness
Turn 1 QC med amulet and meditate 18 mana
Turn 2 27 mana meditate so 30 mana
Turn 3 39 mana meditate 42 mana
Turn 4 51 mana meditate 54 mana
Turn 5 63 mana meditate 66 mana
At this point you have enough to cast all 4 soul drains and QC drain soul with all your reg channeling.
I know people will say "against a skilled opponent that would never work" but I say it always works once. If they see you turtlihg the will either rush or turtle themselves.
If they rush then you can just wait till they send a big 1 or walk up and hit them hard with a drain soul and drain life combo. Average of 11 damage (6 guaranteed) bypassing every thing but nullify and jinx and as a bonus you gain 6 life.
I know its not well rounded but with some of the unused qcs you can armor up especially the cloak since they will have to come to you to target you I will put you in perfect range of 1.
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Note this doesn't work on necro and I havent tried with the necro either I'm sure it would be better for him and using spider for extra taints
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Why do I like Amulet so much?
For one reason: Spawnpoints. In a big creature spawnpoint strategy, often times you are doing absolutely nothing with your full action. This can avoided by waiting longer to summon said creature, but time has become a very serious resource to consider when playing Mage Wars. Meditation amulet really cures a lot of the ache of wasting your actions. I mean think about it. Turn one I go all out and cast harm + Lair. I'm at zero mana. The next turn, I effectively have 12 mana, provided I summon a creature in the deployment phase. So what can I do? Summon a falcon, have 6 mana left over, and I can cast both amulet and Enchanter's ring. Next round, I can not only spend 12 mana on a creature by using my entire mana+ channeling. I can also gain 3 mana to use on the NEXT round. If I cast an enchant on myself or another friendly, I'm now effectively at 14 mana for the next round. I can drop another fatty, and still have mana left over.
It's a situational card, yes. But it's not a useless card by any means, can make others inefficient strategies a ton more efficient. Sure, it may not be worth the full action according to some chart, but what good is a full action if you have absolutely nothing to do with it? Amulet fills those gaps.
I thought it was worthless as well, until I really started playing with it. It makes me a lot happier after actually trying it.
Thanks, Dude. I think the key insight you added here is the Time dimension. It gives 3 mana to put into Spawnpoint deployment next turn. If that gets you what you want, this earlier mana is worth more than 1 mana every turn, especially in the late game.
However the investment and actions spent to make profit seems steep. You commit yourself to a sedentary mage strategy. Meantime opponent can see and force this strategy to be flawed. Move within 2 and teleport your mage into my swarm? It's too telegraphed when cast and opponent will take counter-measures.
It's a shame it takes the same neck slot, not the often unused head slot (Meditating Hat, ha ha) as a substitute benefit. It needs to be used repeatedly to be better than Moonglow and opponent can foil this.
This also begs the question: why are you wasting the mage's full action doing nothing? Why not just bypass the Spawnpoint investment and cast that creature even earlier? (Time was the missed resource.) Aggro mages can leverage their +1 melee by kitting themselves out to be a threat themselves whilst Champion mages are better off just hard casting their Few Big. It commits you to Spawnpoint Swarm strategy, making destroying Epic Spawnpoint more attractive as crippling. You shouldn't be wasting what is normally your most valuable resource, your mage full action, doing nothing. The item rewards turtling and "I can't be bothered to synchronise all my pieces" attitude.
Now, as said in my first post in this thread, because of vine range and so many Spawnpoints (and Felella), the Druid is best placed to use this. The Necromancer also has 2 Spawnpoints and is even more swarm based but can't control the board as well without vine reach.
We have to re-evaluate Swarmpoint play. It just feels that facing Aggro Rush strategy (and many books that become more aggressive too), Meditation Amulet will be worthless. While Moonglow will always be useful.
As ring said, with 2 mages that are designed to be played with Spawnpoints, if not released now, then when?
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It's a situational card, yes. But it's not a useless card by any means, can make others inefficient strategies a ton more efficient. Sure, it may not be worth the full action according to some chart, but what good is a full action if you have absolutely nothing to do with it? Amulet fills those gaps.
We have to re-evaluate Swarmpoint play. It just feels that facing Aggro Rush strategy (and many books that become more aggressive too), Meditation Amulet will be worthless. While Moonglow will always be useful.
As ring said, with 2 mages that are designed to be played with Spawnpoints, if not released now, then when?
This is what I was getting at when I posted. The balance of your FA to mana gained ratio. What you have think about is could you FA be better used on other aspects of the game. In a slower more build heavy style it will shine. In fact using it against a mana drain / suppression build can tip the balance in your favor. Games like that tend to not be the average.
When to look at your average tourney style build it tries to use any tick it can to gain advantage in the core MW areas of Action efficiency, Mana efficiency, Tempo, and Spell point efficiency. Yes, you can gain advantage in other areas of play but when people talk about the core MW strategy these are so of the first thing they look at.
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Shadow would you care to elaborate how you playtested this card?
Did you play test it with 6 mana return?
How did you fit the card in the actual game play strategy after you saw your opponents opening?
What mages did you try this with?
What spawnpoints?
Did you move 1 zone or stay in corner?
How did you act if both you and your opponenent put down creature spawnpoint round 1?
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The Dude's words make a lot of sense to me. Let's say you're in the scenario he gave, and you have 6 mana left after Lair-ing the Falcon. What can you do with a full + quick action on 6 mana? Not much. If you armor up at least one of your actions will be wasted. You can put an enchantment on the bird, but then you've only got 4 mana for your other action. Things are even more restrictive if you summoned something larger, like a Timber Wolf instead. This is probably one big reason spawnpoints don't see a lot of play - you're so mana-starved after putting them down that you can't use your actions efficiently.
But! Meditation Amulet gives you something to do with that extra action. It means you aren't left high and dry when you're low on mana from summoning something from a spawnpoint. In the above scenario WITH Meditation Amulet, the mage could cast a Dragonscale Haubrek, Meditate, and then have 15 mana for the next turn. As opposed to casting Dragonscale Haubrek, then simply passing on his other action - weren't spawnpoints supposed to help with action advantage?
3 mana for a full action ain't much in a vacuum, I agree. But if Meditation Amulet offers to help me do at least something on those turns when I would otherwise pass, I'll gladly give it a shot.
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The full action is the problem, if it was a quick cast then It would see much more play. As mentioned the direct comparison to moonglow amulet really discourage medallion usage. Meditation hat would be better so u can stack it with the moonglow amulet. it would still only see limited play because there are some good headgear. Now if the it was a hat with quickcast for 3 mana, it would a good card. But its not.
I would use the meditation amulet if it was not a full action. If your stun or daze, meditate. I hope the errata this card or it wont see any play.
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Shadow would you care to elaborate how you playtested this card?
Did you play test it with 6 mana return?
How did you fit the card in the actual game play strategy after you saw your opponents opening?
What mages did you try this with?
What spawnpoints?
Did you move 1 zone or stay in corner?
How did you act if both you and your opponenent put down creature spawnpoint round 1?
My group found like the dude it is a situational card (tested it from 3-6 mana full and/or quick gain) as a full it works best in build that have time to build or the use spawn points or other ways to cheat spells out. We even test it as a quick 1x a round gain 3 mana (this tended to be unbalancing in most games), but in the aggro vs aggro match it almost never came into play due to the fact you almost always have a mana surplus. We have been looking at this card for a long time now. In fact we have had MA in our test file since 2011. We tried it in aggro, combo, and control builds. We also looked at it with several powers and abilities. Most mages that the community gets we see 5-12 versions of. Sometimes we even mix and match powers for even more mage choices. We also noticed the other use was when a player would try to mana stave you MA became clutch. I find it hard to justify including MA it your average book due it it being so situational. When you looked at an average tourney style game between 2 skilled player MA at 3 mana per full was never what clutched the game.
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The problem with Meditation amulet isn't that you can theoretically get a lot of mana out of it and recover your initial investment in a few turns, it is that it takes up your full action every turn to do it.
Right. I addressed this in my last sentence. Full actions are a bigger deal to builds that can't replace them with spawnpoints or familiars. I don't disagree with the risk, but I do on how ginormous that risk is.
First, say you're a Druid that uses Vine Tree, Druid's Leaf Ring, Taratree, and Mana Flower.... Now, say you're a Druid who uses 2 trees and the Meditation amulet (and probably also Taratree)....
You raise a valid point about evaluating cards in a vacuum, worrying less about the rate of return on an investment, and more about what to do with it.
But this scenario raises issues for me.
First, it would be better to have an actual apples to apples comparison. You're kinda moving the goalposts subbing in the amulet and another tree for the two most inexpensive components. Under the same conditions, Ring/Tree/Butterfly/Amulet is more fair, which I have at 6 rounds, -20 mana, -4 quick, and -2 full for +4 profit and +5 full/quick (assuming 2 full plants or less from druid). If you spam enough fulls from vine tree, you can counteract the downside enough to make the extra 4 mana worth it IMO, and if you milk more, that's gravy.
But secondly, none of this matters anyway. Any build that spends two turns farming up will likely scoop to rush no matter what cards you use (unless you're Wizard). This is nothing more than a classic example of what we call, over in the MtG community, magicchristmasland, which is short for "this works only if your opponent does nothing". For example, I would never count on Butterfly, aka Flameblast bait, going past a round. And the same I-see-you-playing-cards-that-do-nothing-until-late-game-holy-crap-I-go-kill-you-now arguement against amulet applies here tenfold. You're way better off going spawnpoint/amulet, spawnpoint/mana rock, or spawnpoint/one finger discount and being done with it.
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one finger discount
Hah! Yes! Be my friend!
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You're kinda moving the goalposts subbing in the amulet and another tree for the two most inexpensive components.
That was not my intention. My line of thinking was to find a way to use the Meditation Amulet to gain an overall action advantage, as otherwise we're still back to 3 mana not being worth a full action, and the only way to do that is with 2 spawnpoints (something a non-amulet build wouldn't be able to do because of a lack of mana).
Under the same conditions, Ring/Tree/Butterfly/Amulet is more fair, which I have at 6 rounds, -20 mana, -4 quick, and -2 full for +4 profit and +5 full/quick (assuming 2 full plants or less from druid). If you spam enough fulls from vine tree, you can counteract the downside enough to make the extra 4 mana worth it IMO, and if you milk more, that's gravy.
I assume you're using Vine Tree above?
This is still highly unfavourable to the Meditation Amulet. In the above example you've made 4 mana and spent 1 action, while using Mana Flower instead of the Amulet gives you 2 mana and 1 action (and leaves you with more options during an attack since you don't need to meditate to keep your mana advantage). 2 mana per full action taken is pretty dismal.
[/quote]But secondly, none of this matters anyway. Any build that spends two turns farming up will likely scoop to rush no matter what cards you use (unless you're Wizard).[/quote]
Yes, I mention that; if the opponent doesn't cast +channeling spells you would switch to defense. It's part of what makes me dislike meditation amulet, since it requires multiple casts and many actions just to make itself useful (which in many cases you won't have).
For example, I would never count on Butterfly, aka Flameblast bait, going past a round.
I think it's a lot more situational than that. Taratree acts sort of like harmonize on a a tree (that can also heal it). The big thing to me is that while dispel is 0-2, flameblast (or Arc Lightning or Geyser) is 0-1.
And the same I-see-you-playing-cards-that-do-nothing-until-late-game-holy-crap-I-go-kill-you-now arguement against amulet applies here tenfold. You're way better off going spawnpoint/amulet, spawnpoint/mana rock, or spawnpoint/one finger discount and being done with it.
The problem spawnpoint/amulet has that the others are immune to is that if you cannot spend your full actions for < 3 mana then you've wasted an action and mana on nothing, while the others will eventually pay themselves off no matter what you do.
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Appreciate all the insight :) 'm planning on trying it with Wallord (aspiring Warlord walled fort defense) might make Barracks more palatable. He's often starved for mana and i recall several instances where he had a spare full action sitting behind the walls.
Worst case scenario - it helps my handicap book out a little :-)
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I would like to raise two points.
First, while using the card, when it was a promo, my good friend got very good mileage from ut using the old shcool beast master based on the fact that lair is a very strong spawnpoint and that he can summon creatures as a quick action. Instead of swarming with small and the occational mid strength creatures he could play more mid and even high strength ones. It got pretty ugly fast.
Second, I do belive that it will be important for a necromancer who wishes to play alot of reanimate and such. From what I gather he needs to have the mana on hand at the moment of the kill to be able to use reanimate or rise again, a very nice card to play with sectarus, since it gives him the opportunity to gain mana mid trun he can use it if he sees that it will be needed to bring back the minions from the grave. On top of the fact that it boost spawnpoints...
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Hah! Yes! Be my friend!
Done. 8)
That was not my intention. My line of thinking was to find a way to use the Meditation Amulet to gain an overall action advantage, as otherwise we're still back to 3 mana not being worth a full action, and the only way to do that is with 2 spawnpoints (something a non-amulet build wouldn't be able to do because of a lack of mana).
Yeah... thinking it over after posting, I see your angle. Fair point.
I assume you're using Vine Tree above?
2 mana per full action taken is pretty dismal.
Except when it's more than two actions. 2.33 mana per action a third time and topping off at 2.66 at four plus actions. No other card in the game trades an action for two mana, let alone that amount. If I use amulet once every three turns, I will always have a +2 profit over mana flower. Ultimately, we have to see how valuable 2+ mana per action is.
Yes, I mention that; if the opponent doesn't cast +channeling spells you would switch to defense. It's part of what makes me dislike meditation amulet, since it requires multiple casts and many actions just to make itself useful (which in many cases you won't have).
With "multiple casts", are you referring to spawnpoint use?
I think it's a lot more situational than that. Taratree acts sort of like harmonize on a a tree (that can also heal it). The big thing to me is that while dispel is 0-2, flameblast (or Arc Lightning or Geyser) is 0-1.
Don't forget stuff like knockdown, snipershot, sleep, and zone attacks (especially sandstorm). Love the card, cool design, but unless you rouse it, opponents still have a turn to fetch whatever silver bullet they pack.
The problem spawnpoint/amulet has that the others are immune to is that if you cannot spend your full actions for < 3 mana then you've wasted an action and mana on nothing, while the others will eventually pay themselves off no matter what you do.
For everyone's sanity, here's a competitively practical example, I'll end my say, and let you and others pick at it.
Druid Ring/Vine Tree vs. Vine Tree/Flower vs. Vine Tree/Amulet.
+2 profit, +2 actions turn 5 vs. +1 profit, +4 actions turn 6 vs. just +1 profit turn 5.
Slam dunk for ring on paper, but what if I get stunned and have a full plant spell? What if I get siphoned? What if I have no target to strangle/tangle? What about upkeep? It can't absorb legacy costs and ultimately requires you to spend money to make money.
Better in the short term, but Amulet lets me go rounds without casting and getting me farm letting me play or support more threatening things later. I'm more likely to spare a full action or two than have a viable plant spell to cast every turn long term.
And don't forget, druid is the only mage that can subsidize her spawnpoints directly. For other mages, you open with mana rocks or amulet. And I mention the tradeoffs above: You sack profit for actions on one and do the opposite with the other. I think it's close enough to depend on what you want from your build. My $0.02.
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Except when it's more than two actions. 2.33 mana per action a third time and topping off at 2.66 at four plus actions. No other card in the game trades an action for two mana, let alone that amount. If I use amulet once every three turns, I will always have a +2 profit over mana flower. Ultimately, we have to see how valuable 2+ mana per action is.
If you use the Amulet once every 3 turns (assuming you didn't use Leaf Ring to cast the mana flower), you're at +1 mana and will lose in terms of actions. Using it 1 out of every 3 turns just doesn't make sense, but then using it more often doesn't make a lot of sense either. Probably using it 2 out of every 3 turns is the best, but that is still very painful.
With "multiple casts", are you referring to spawnpoint use?
I'm referring to anything that will give you the ability to "make up" for your inability to use your full action if you meditate.
Don't forget stuff like knockdown, snipershot, sleep, and zone attacks (especially sandstorm). Love the card, cool design, but unless you rouse it, opponents still have a turn to fetch whatever silver bullet they pack.
Sandstorm isn't in the game officially yet, though it is a very powerful card (I have issues with an unavoidable ranged quick attack spell with range 0-2 for reasons not relevant to this discussion though). However, since it isn't officially released, I don't think it's much of an issue for now. Of the current zone attacks released, all of them either don't have unavoidable (83.3% chance to miss) or are range 0-0 except for Firestorm, which would be a very painful counter (mostly because it has a decent chance of burning down whatever tree Taratree is on).
A knockdown/sniper shot + melee/ranged attack would probably kill Taratree, but at a cost of 3 mana and 2 actions (as opposed to the 6 mana and 1 action I summoned it with). In terms of tempo I win here. Also that melee or ranged attack is one that isn't damaging me or something more valuable.
Sleep would be highly effective against Taratree (unless the Druid had a Wand of Healing), but I've noticed that most books only have 1-2 copies of sleep. If they want to use it on Taratree I think I'd be ok with that (though I suspect they'd be more likely to sleep Kralathor or Togorah).
I think you're overlooking something about Taratree though; using it as a "poisoned pawn".
However, I think the most effective tool against Taratree is the good ol' Idol of Pestilence. Rousing Taratree doesn't make any sense to me though, since you'd spend 1 quick cast and 1 mana to...give one of your trees 1 mana (a prime example of things that are just not worth it).
For everyone's sanity, here's a competitively practical example, I'll end my say, and let you and others pick at it.
Druid Ring/Vine Tree vs. Vine Tree/Flower vs. Vine Tree/Amulet.
+2 profit, +2 actions turn 5 vs. +1 profit, +4 actions turn 6 vs. just +1 profit turn 5.
I think you're a bit off here. First you're comparing 2 of them at turn 5 and 1 of them at turn 6 (why not all of them at one turn, or better yet, all of them at say turns 4-6?), and second by turn 6 the Vine/Flower combo gives you +3 actions by turn 6 (though on turn 5 you have -3 mana and +2 actions).
Slam dunk for ring on paper, but what if I get stunned and have a full plant spell?
If you're stunned you can only cast quick spells with your actions iirc, so you wouldn't be able to meditate either. In either case, you could still cast spells from equipment you're wearing (such as Mohktari's branch or Wand of Healing).
What if I get siphoned?
I think I've seen this in play...once, so I'm not used to fighting against it. However, most of my books include a copy of Divine Might and at least 2 ethereal attack spells, so I suppose I would just use those. *Shrug*
What if I have no target to strangle/tangle?
I think I'd be using those spells during the deployment phase (off of Vine Tree), since that way I could deploy a Vine marker and then immediately have it Tangle/Strangle something. I do find it a little incredulous that there would be no targets in 0-2 or in a zone with a vine marker. Work on positioning more I suppose, or cast a spell off of one of your equipment? The only I can see this happening is if you didn't pay attention to the board position or you were surprised by a teleport (though I repeat myself).
What about upkeep?
??? I think some of these are getting a little ridiculous. No one's claiming that a particular mana spell is best in all situations, or that specifically the ring is designed to worry about upkeep costs.
It can't absorb legacy costs and ultimately requires you to spend money to make money.
You call mana "money", but mana isn't the only currency in the game. It isn't even the most valuable one. Every[/b] spell in the game has you spending currency to make other currency (even creatures, where you spend mana and 1 action for more actions), but the Meditation Amulet is the only spell in the game that asks you to spend 1 quick action, 2 full actions, and 4 mana in order to make 2 (and after that 1 full action to make 3).
Druid's Leaf Ring is cheap and can be used on ~80% of the spells a Druid would probably include in a book. It allows you to build up forces for your assault or defend against one equally well. Meditation Amulet only lets you build up, at the highest price of any mana spell in the game.
Opening with Meditation Amulet and Vine Tree tells your opponent on turn 1 that you're planning for a long game and that you're not prepared for an early assault (at the very least, you've wasted mana/actions on something worthless when you're under attack).
Now, I wish Meditation Amulet was viable. I really, really do (I hate it in games when one choice is better than another 99.9% of the time), but in the current meta I don't think it has a realistic place, except perhaps against opponents of a lower skill as a deliberate handicap/teaching tool.
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@Aylin,
I'm not gonna belabor this much longer as our opinions won't change and I do respect what you're saying. But a few things:
1. Check the math again. Flower cost five, breaks even turn six, and is +3 every three turns after. Amulet costs four, is +2 turn six after two uses, and remains +2 over every three turns I use it.
2. Akiro's Hammer and Ludwig are 0-1. Hail of Stones left out unavoidable and was errata'd.
3. Yes, I was off one mana and I intended to show the break even/profit of each option but didn't make that clear. My apologies.
4. If I'm stunned one turn, I still have three turns to get two meditates to maintain profit. If I prep a full plant spell and stunned prior to casting it, I lose the benefit of ring throwing off the profitability.
5. The ring's discount doesn't apply to spells cast from your spawnpoint.
6. There's a difference between spending less and gaining more. Spending less doesn't move the ceiling on what you can buy. Gaining more does. Legacy costs like upkeep and spreading vines a la vine tree tend to eat more into that ceiling over time. So, hardly ridiculous IMO.
7. I would seriously argue mana is the more important currency. Decisions matter more than options, if that makes sense. Early game, it's somewhat relevant only because everyone has an additional ten mana and can generate big threats that need answering, not solely because of some action surplus/deficit. As the game goes on, your income erodes and it becomes a matter of playing better stuff than your opponent, not more. There will be times when spare actions in the bank do nothing. And it's not like regaining tempo is all that expensive. When it comes to force push, teleport, etc., you're not breaking the bank paying two over a ring. Actions are nice, but I find them to be overrated in that regard.
8. I remember all the threads screaming for Warlock to be buffed because they looked at him in a vacuum and ignored his merits. The problem is the meta ceases to be current once this is released. We have playtesters who changed it from it's original promo and felt it fit for the wild. One in particular, opined that while the card won't see play in an average competitive build, but there are avenues where it will find play. Another respected community member liked the card after playing it in certain capacities after writing it off as most have. That's my point: I can think of two archetypes where this could be the better choice but it won't likely see much play outside that. I won't say it's ****. But I didn't say it's the **** either. I'm just not willing to call this a coaster yet.
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@Aylin,
I'm not gonna belabor this much longer as our opinions won't change and I do respect what you're saying. But a few things:
1. Check the math again. Flower cost five, breaks even turn six, and is +3 every three turns after. Amulet costs four, is +2 turn six after two uses, and remains +2 over every three turns I use it.
I was saying that that Amulet would give you 1 more mana than the flower would if you use the Amulet one turn out of every three. I suppose I should have that clearer. My point was that 1 extra mana overall is NOT worth all of those full actions.
2. Akiro's Hammer and Ludwig are 0-1. Hail of Stones left out unavoidable and was errata'd.
??? Akiro's Hammer is 2-3, is Warlord only, and is considered to be a pretty poor play even for him (which is saying something considering how awful the Warlord is). Ludwig Boltstorm's attack is 1-1, not 0-1, and again I've never seen him in play.
Do you have a source for the unavoidable on Hail of Stones? OCTGN and my physical set both have it without, and the only errata I've seen were the temples and battle fury ones.
3. Yes, I was off one mana and I intended to show the break even/profit of each option but didn't make that clear. My apologies.
I was pointing out that you were off in terms of actions, not mana.
4. If I'm stunned one turn, I still have three turns to get two meditates to maintain profit. If I prep a full plant spell and stunned prior to casting it, I lose the benefit of ring throwing off the profitability.
The ring is better than the flower for mana if there are < 3 turns in which you don't cast a plant spell (and equal if there are 3 such turns), and the flower is better than the amulet if you meditate 1 turn in 3.
Also your scenario is assuming that you have neither the Wand of Healing nor a quick plant spell AND that you wanted to cast a full plant spell that turn. That is a fairly specific set of requirements especially since casting the full plant spell from the Vine Tree would, in general, be the better play.
Though the real issue here is why are you stuned? If an enemy mage is punching you in the face or you're getting hit by an angel or Galador, why would you keep meditating instead of solving that problem first? (There are other sources of stuns, of course, such as the Goblin Bomber [lol] or a Light or Lightning attack spell though if your opponent is using them on you either you're losing badly (or are at least at a positional disadvantage) or your opponent made a tactical error and in either case mana efficiency isn't that important anymore).
[/quote]5. The ring's discount doesn't apply to spells cast from your spawnpoint. [/quote]
O...k...? The idea is that you'd be casting a plant spell yourself nearly every round anyway, in addition to your spawnpoint. It only applies to one spell a round, so why would it matter that you can't cheapen spells from a spawnpoint?
6. There's a difference between spending less and gaining more. Spending less doesn't move the ceiling on what you can buy. Gaining more does. Legacy costs like upkeep and spreading vines a la vine tree tend to eat more into that ceiling over time. So, hardly ridiculous IMO.
The ring not paying "legacy" costs only matter if you don't plan on casting anything in a particular round, especially since nearly every spell the Druid has is a plant. I don't see that coming up too often. I think in all the games I've played there was once instance where I didn't use either spell I had prepared in a round (it was using a Warlock battle forge build, and I had deployed a Dispel Wand and used that for my quick, with a melee attack as my other action). Now, maybe my group and I are just weird like that, but I have a hard time seeing it as something common, or even uncommon. If it is, please let me know.
7. I would seriously argue mana is the more important currency. Decisions matter more than options, if that makes sense. Early game, it's somewhat relevant only because everyone has an additional ten mana and can generate big threats that need answering, not solely because of some action surplus/deficit. As the game goes on, your income erodes and it becomes a matter of playing better stuff than your opponent, not more. There will be times when spare actions in the bank do nothing. And it's not like regaining tempo is all that expensive. When it comes to force push, teleport, etc., you're not breaking the bank paying two over a ring. Actions are nice, but I find them to be overrated in that regard.
What exactly do you mean by decisions? By options I mean the ability to respond to the board in an advantageous manner (Ring + Vine allows you to either build up [mana flower and whatever] or respond to an early aggression [wall or a creature or something] equally well).
What I mean by actions being the most valuable is that every spell or deployment requires both an action and mana, but (generally speaking) mana isn't required to make attacks or move zones. The only things that only require mana are upkeep costs (semi-rare outside of the mind school), voltaric shield, deflect, or vine tree playing a vine marker iirc. The value of an action, of course, is based on what it can do (which is affected by the amount of mana available), but the most valuable action you can have is your mage's full action. And I don't see trading that full action for less than 3 mana to be a fair deal.
8. I remember all the threads screaming for Warlock to be buffed because they looked at him in a vacuum and ignored his merits.
I remember those threads too. I also remember piousflea winning the first tournament I believe with a Warlock.
The problem is the meta ceases to be current once this is released. We have playtesters who changed it from it's original promo and felt it fit for the wild. One in particular, opined that while the card won't see play in an average competitive build, but there are avenues where it will find play. Another respected community member liked the card after playing it in certain capacities after writing it off as most have. That's my point: I can think of two archetypes where this could be the better choice but it won't likely see much play outside that. I won't say it's ****. But I didn't say it's the **** either. I'm just not willing to call this a coaster yet.
I might be looking at it too much from a competitive standpoint. I suppose it might have value in "casual" matchups. Part of my problem with it might be that they released this instead of something to help the Warlord out a bit (like a one-handed war weapon or a new Warlord Only spell) or something besides a 2-die attack to help against Wizard's Tower (which almost always gives the win to the controlling Wizard).
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Do you have a source for the unavoidable on Hail of Stones? OCTGN and my physical set both have it without, and the only errata I've seen were the temples and battle fury ones.
All zone attacks have the unavoidable trait by default (rulebook pp. 23, or the codex). It does not need to be printed on the card.
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Do you have a source for the unavoidable on Hail of Stones? OCTGN and my physical set both have it without, and the only errata I've seen were the temples and battle fury ones.
All zone attacks have the unavoidable trait by default (rulebook pp. 23, or the codex). It does not need to be printed on the card.
Oh thanks, I had missed that!
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Do you have a source for the unavoidable on Hail of Stones? OCTGN and my physical set both have it without, and the only errata I've seen were the temples and battle fury ones.
All zone attacks have the unavoidable trait by default (rulebook pp. 23, or the codex). It does not need to be printed on the card.
Correct
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somebody just give shadow a damn banana already!
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For saying "Correct" ???
I jest. I'm sure he's earned far more than he currently has. The other moderators are slacking.
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I think I'm going to have to eat my own words on this card; I've insulted it rather strongly in at least two posts so far, but after some thought and a little playtime, I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as my initial assessment. I've added it to my Priestess deck, with an early play of:
Turn 1: (20) Move and cast Battle Forge in my square. Observe opponent's action: if he casts mana-building cards, then QC Temple of Asyra in NC during final QC phase. If he looks to be using a rush strategy, do not QC. (The rest of this example assumes he is not rushing me; if he is, the book just plays out as a standard survive-to-midgame style, no Temple or Amulet used.)
Turn 2: (2+10=12) 1 mana banked on Temple. Deploy Meditation Amulet from Forge. FC use Amulet, QC Harmonize Temple.
Turn 3: (8+10=18) 3 mana banked on Temple, which Deploys Knight. Deploy Enchanter's Ring (or whatever) from Forge. FC use Amulet, QC Friendly Enchantment (my favourite is Divine Protection). You end the round with 9 mana.
From Turn 4 on, assuming you get to keep your Amulet, you just FC for 3 mana. Bring out Enchanter's Ring and Ring of Asyra, and you are (in theory) operating with *18* mana and three actions a turn! You can easily bring out a creature and enchant it 4 turns out of 5. My build includes some great equipment, such as two Mage Wands and a Staff of Asyra, so if my opponent Dissolves the Amulet...either way, it's served its purpose.
In the two main games I've played with it, I got to keep it in the first, and it was Dissolved early on the second. But the fact that it was Dissolved just tells me it was a useful card, or it wouldn't have been targeted. One issue that came up: I'm thinking about adding a Rouse the Beast to my deck, so the first Knight can Guard on Turn 3.
Some other uses for the Meditation Amulet:
--Cast it with Lair first turn, to start gaining 3 mana on turn 2+. (Downside: can't Deploy a pet Wolf, unfortunately.) Can't do that with a Moonglow Amulet.
--Druid and Necromancer and their multiple Spawnpoints, of course.
Note that I'm not saying the Amulet is overpowered or anything. There are too many relatively easy ways to counter it. But I am retracting my "What is this garbage?!?" initial reaction! ; ) It has its uses.
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Now we are on to something.
Vs an agressive opponent you might have to have the Forge deploy an armor (6 mana) round 2 in order to negate burst damage.
Then you QC amulet and FA meditate.
You can still deploy from Temple next round - and here you ofc harmonize it so you can do so every round while meditating and Forge fills you up with gloves, leather boots and cape (if needed).
Imagine the amulet gave 6 mana per turn??? then it wouldnt be knights you summoned every turn from round 3, then it would be 21 mana angels....
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Now we are on to something.
Vs an agressive opponent you might have to have the Forge deploy an armor (6 mana) round 2 in order to negate burst damage.
Then you QC amulet and FA meditate.
You can still deploy from Temple next round - and here you ofc harmonize it so you can do so every round while meditating and Forge fills you up with gloves, leather boots and cape (if needed).
Imagine the amulet gave 6 mana per turn??? then it wouldnt be knights you summoned every turn from round 3, then it would be 21 mana angels....
Then we would have aggro priestess. :P
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The problem isn't so much negating the burst damage; the Priestess is very good at recovery from damage dealt to her. The problem is having the Temple destroyed by the super-aggressor and his Big Few. I suppose, if I cast the Temple in the starting corner that would probably allow it to last until the first Knight comes out. After that, survival to mid-game should be a possibility.
However, if I try to Armour up and Harmonize, I wouldn't be able to Amulet and Knight the next round. Maybe if I were to limit myself to Boots or Gloves in Round 2 instead...
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The problem isn't so much negating the burst damage; the Priestess is very good at recovery from damage dealt to her. The problem is having the Temple destroyed by the super-aggressor and his Big Few. I suppose, if I cast the Temple in the starting corner that would probably allow it to last until the first Knight comes out. After that, survival to mid-game should be a possibility.
However, if I try to Armour up and Harmonize, I wouldn't be able to Amulet and Knight the next round. Maybe if I were to limit myself to Boots or Gloves in Round 2 instead...
ofc u would...
20
Forge -8
Temple -10
2
12+1+1
Forge: hauberk -6
Temple: none
QC: Amulet -4
FA: meditate +3
6+0+1
16+1+2
Forge: leather boots -2
Temple: knight of westlock -13
FA: meditate +3
QC: harmonize temple -4
3+0+0
round 4:
13+1+2
When that is said, then i would probaly open with 2 guardian angels - and if my opponent aint rushing me 1 cleric, then guardian.
Also Few big takes 2 turns to summon (1 big obviously only takes 1), and then its still standing in start corner... you are deploying in round 3 and on.
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Downside: can't Deploy a pet Wolf, unfortunately.
Why not?
The problem is having the Temple destroyed by the super-aggressor and his Big Few.
As pointed out by Jacksmack, you have a few turns before your opponent gets to you. If he spends a round summoning a creature without moving, then he won't be in your face until round 4. To combat an aggressor I would probably modify things this way
(10) Round 1 (+10)
(20) Cast Battle Forge (-8)
(12) Cast Temple of Asyra (-10)
(2) Round 2 (+10 +1 +1)
(14) Deploy Meditation Amulet (-4)
(10) Meditate (+3)
(13) Cast Harmonize on Temple (-4)
(9) Round 3 (+10 +1 +2)
(22) Deploy Dragonscale Hauberk (-6)
(16) Deploy Knight of Westlock (-13)
(3) Meditate (+3)
(6) Cast Rouse The Beast (-3)
(3) Knight of Westlock Guards
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My opening was a suggestion to counter a super Agro opening with double fireball in face round 2. After round 1 you will be able to foresee this during the planning face, and you can handle it accordingly. If your opponent slows, you might wanna put out double cleric and harmonize.
/From phone
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Both openings had the same goal in mind, to gear up enough to fend off an aggressive opponent. We just went about it slightly differently. You postponed Harmonize a round to get out both the Hauberk and the Leather Boots. I sacrificed the Leather Boots to get out Harmonize Earlier and to get my Knight on guard duty straight away. Both are good options. Yours works better against a double fireball to the face, mine works better against them moving in to swing in melee. Mine also provides some protection of the precious spawnpoint via the guard.
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Hmm, that might work, particularly when I add in a Rouse the Beast. Thanks, guys.
Downside: can't Deploy a pet Wolf, unfortunately.
Why not?
Sorry, I was being imprecise here. I meant that if you did not use the Meditation Amulet, you could bring out a Pet Wolf on Turn 2. If you cast the Meditation Amulet on Turn 1, then you start Turn 2 with 9 (base) + 2 (Lair) mana--one short of Deploying a Pet Wolf. If you wanted a Pet right away, you'd probably have to settle for a Falcon.
So, no Amulet on Turn 1: Pet Wolf on Turn 2 is possible. Amulet on Turn 1: no Pet Wolf on Turn 2.
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Sorry, I was being imprecise here. I meant that if you did not use the Meditation Amulet, you could bring out a Pet Wolf on Turn 2.
That makes sense.
Hmm, that might work, particularly when I add in a Rouse the Beast. Thanks, guys.
Glad to offer some insight. I hope testing these ideas proves to be fun!
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Then we would have aggro priestess. :P
Which is absolutely fine.
No archetype should be excluded from any type of play style / book construction. :P
My group came to the conclusion about the meditation amulet. It is not about the mana it produces but the option to produce it.
From the wearer's perspective you can more easily react to an opponent's play when you have the ability to generate 3 (unpreventable) mana now. It adds stress to mana-lock decks. Will it stop a solid mana lock? No but it does help with a nudge here and a nudge there.
When you are sitting across from one it is much harder to read an opponents play. When they have a battle forge, sectarus, libro, graveyard, and pentagram out (an exaggerated theoretical situation ) with a myriad of mana across all that and 5 extra prepared spells on the board I can not realistically anticipate every play. That is compounded with the meditation amulet.
It has some benefit in that mind game aspect of the game. It is much harder to try to plan what your opponent is planning when they have an extra 3 mana they can produce at will.
If your opponent tightens their mana budget to anticipate a card you never actually use, than I would argue meditation amulet has paid for itself and then some.
All that to say
I understand it's purpose, and the reason they wanted to include it, however I do not think that this card is going to make a lot of noise right now and I am not a huge fan of it. But who knows, maybe in 3-4 sets this card will be the lynch pin of every book?
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When they have a battle forge, sectarus, libro, graveyard, and pentagram out (an exaggerated theoretical situation )
An actually impossible situation, unless you're house-ruling that a Necromancer can use Warlock-only spells or vice-versa. Though I'd say that Sectarus does not mesh well with Meditation Amulet due to positional reasons, so you'd probably be better off with a Mage Wand in the off hand.
All that to say
I understand it's purpose, and the reason they wanted to include it, however I do not think that this card is going to make a lot of noise right now and I am not a huge fan of it. But who knows, maybe in 3-4 sets this card will be the lynch pin of every book?
I would love for this card to be useable in many books... I just have no idea how they're going to make it desirable.
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I do not think that this card is going to make a lot of noise right now
We'll have to wait and see, but I expect it will have a big impact on the current meta. Plain and simple, it will make spawnpoints viable. Currently, it usually takes you 7+ rounds to make back your investment in a spawnpoint and, in order to gain an action advantage from the spawnpoint, you have to limit yourself to level 1 or 2 creatures.
With the Meditation Amulet, you can make back your investment in 4 rounds and you can maintain your number of actions while pumping out level 2 or 3 creatures. This is a significant improvement and I expect to start seeing spawnpoints in play for a lot more builds.
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An actually impossible situation, unless you're house-ruling that a Necromancer can use Warlock-only spells or vice-versa. Though I'd say that Sectarus does not mesh well with Meditation Amulet due to positional reasons, so you'd probably be better off with a Mage Wand in the off hand.
I was throwing out all the dark spawnpoints on a dime and was just illistrating that the more mana they have access to the more difficult it is to lan accordingly.
However about sectarus,
I use a quick cast to place a retaliate / reverse attack and then full round to channel 3 mana.
You declare an attack against me and now I have extra mana to reveal / place a curse on you (if I went with retaliate) or I just channeled the extra mana to turn a block into a reverse attack with only minimal setbacks.
Be cautious of the Necro equipped with sectarus. Counter attacking with a main wings on the back end puts flyers in a bad place. Not to mention Rise Again, Whats better than channeling 3 extra mana to help pay for a counterattack that ends with you getting a creature you just destroyed?
It's not meta changing, but it adds some new options to the mana management department.
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However about sectarus,
I use a quick cast to place a retaliate / reverse attack and then full round to channel 3 mana.
You declare an attack against me and now I have extra mana to reveal / place a curse on you (if I went with retaliate) or I just channeled the extra mana to turn a block into a reverse attack with only minimal setbacks.
Be cautious of the Necro equipped with sectarus. Counter attacking with a main [sic] wings on the back end puts flyers in a bad place. Not to mention Rise Again, Whats better than channeling 3 extra mana to help pay for a counterattack that ends with you getting a creature you just destroyed?
It's not meta changing, but it adds some new options to the mana management department.
My point was that when meditating, you cannot move normally (you could use force push or teleport I suppose, but that would be a bad choice except in specific situations hence I am ignoring it), making it harder for you to be in melee range when you want to be.
I'm not saying that using Retaliate to hit a flying creature with Sectarus (and simultaneously applying a Maim Wings) wouldn't be effective, but doing that requires you to have a new Retaliate every time you do that trick (which probably won't work more than once against an opponent), and you have to hope they don't Seeking Dispel your Retaliate or have a Block/Reverse Attack. Reverse Attack on the other hand isn't limited to Sectarus issues, so I have no idea why you brought that up.
A Mage Wand on the other hand can have a spell bonded to it with a range of 0-2 (lessening positional issues), and doesn't have as many requirements to be useful at the same time as your Meditation Amulet (no need for Retaliate, chiefly).
The main thing you're buying with Sectarus is the ability to apply curses while doing something that a melee-oriented dark mage wants to be doing anyway; punching the enemy. Using a Meditation Amulet prevents you from doing that though, which is why I think you'd be better off using an item that lets you use it during your quick cast.
Now, I think a Necromancer without Meditation Amulet can use Sectarus almost as well as a Warlock (no innate melee +1 and no curseweaving are minor detriments).
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Reverse Attack on the other hand isn't limited to Sectarus issues, so I have no idea why you brought that up.
Block is 2 cast / 2 reveal.
Reverse Attack is 2 cast / 5 reveal
Just illustrating that 3 mana can go a long way sometimes, not necessarily tied to Sectarus.
End of the day it is still a meh - ditation amulet :P
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In my opinion this was not a spell that was developed with the expectation that everyone would be adding it to their spell books. It is a spell that certain builds (those that have ways of gaining extra actions during deployment) will find useful in some situations and certain builds. Will everybody fall in love with this card and add it to their spell books? Probably not. Will some people find this card useful in some of their builds? Probably.
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I've been toying with a few Meditation Amulet openings, and it should open up more options for spawnpoint openings. I'm starting to see it being useful for builds specifically tailored to it's use, although I'm still questioning how they will handle rushes. I can see defensive things they can do, but I'll need to see whether it's actually enough to hold off rushes. I'll give those openings a try when I get the chance.