May 10, 2024, 02:58:48 AM

Author Topic: Stranglevine  (Read 13747 times)

Mithror

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Stranglevine
« on: September 28, 2015, 10:45:21 AM »
So, I'm fairly new to MW, been playing with the GF and we love it. I've been looking at the new videos for the Ro8 of the Thunderdome II tournament (awesome work, you guys) and I now have a question about this card. This actually also kinda come up a game we played here yesterday.

The description on [mwcard=DNJ10]Stranglevine[/mwcard] is as follows:
Quote
The target is Restrained and gains the Unmovable trait. Each Upkeep phase, before paying Stranglevine's upkeep cost, place 1 Crush token on Stranglevine. X = the number of Crush tokens on Stranglevine. When you pay Stranglevine's Upkeep cost, this creature receives X direct damage. Stranglevine gains Life +2X.
Stranglevine cannot target creatures with the Flying or Uncontainable traits. Ranged attacks cannot target Stranglevine.

The way we played it, was that the life of strangelevine just equals: 6 + 2X and that seems to be the consensus when looking info on this card and looking at how the tournament deals with it. However, I'm beginning to believe that this is wrong. Is there any official ruling on this? I have not found anything in the rules or rules supplement.

The issue with this card stems from the phrase: Stranglevine gains Life +2X. No where is it specified when it gains this. Imo, there are two ways to interpret the description, with the first one being:

Quote
The target is Restrained and gains the Unmovable trait. Each Upkeep phase, before paying Stranglevine's upkeep cost, place 1 Crush token on Stranglevine. X = the number of Crush tokens on Stranglevine. When you pay Stranglevine's Upkeep cost:
  • this creature receives X direct damage.
Stranglevine gains Life +2X.
Stranglevine cannot target creatures with the Flying or Uncontainable traits. Ranged attacks cannot target Stranglevine.
Which is what the appears to be the accepted way of playing this card. The idea is that the text fires once and it now has Life +2X trait on it, after which the phrase does not do anything anymore. Thus, because of the trait, every upkeep it increases its life by 2 (if you keep paying upkeep and is thus not discarded). But... it does not say it gains the Life +2X trait. It just says that it gains Life +2X. With that in mind, you could actually rule it as firing once, when cast and thus gaining no extra life. After which the phrase does nothing anymore. There are more complications as well, see later.

The second interpration could be:
Quote
The target is Restrained and gains the Unmovable trait. Each Upkeep phase, before paying Stranglevine's upkeep cost, place 1 Crush token on Stranglevine. X = the number of Crush tokens on Stranglevine. When you pay Stranglevine's Upkeep cost:
  • this creature receives X direct damage.
  • Stranglevine gains Life +2X.
Stranglevine cannot target creatures with the Flying or Uncontainable traits. Ranged attacks cannot target Stranglevine.
Here, the phrase is triggered every upkeep phase, just like the damage. It does not need to specify it is gaining a trait, it just gains +2X life. Hence, first time it gains 2 Life, second time it gains 4, then 6, ... I can't find any complications here, like I do with the first interpretation. So, to me, this seems like the correct interpretation. Other than that it seems like its giving it a lot of life, which might break the card's balance?

It seems to me that this card should probably be clarified a bit more, perhas in the rules complement to indicate what the correct ruling is here.

For those who know the situation that occurred in the tournament, it probably would not have made any difference. Deathlock should either have stopped the gaining of an additional 2 or an additional 2X. Though with Deathlock in play, the first interpretation becomes even more troublesome, because we can't tell what happens when you change a trait. Does the first one go away to be replaced by the new one? Does it change instantly? These distinctions would need to be made for Deathlock to be properly evaluated. Another complication which does not arise in the second interpretation.

Any thoughts?

echephron

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2015, 11:35:28 AM »
yup, the spell is worded poorly. I've brought it up before repeatedly...somewhere on this forum. There is another thread on this since the tournament, so i wouldn't have started a new thread.
It also doesn't gain life if it has Finite Life, right? When the finite life goes away, does it then have life equal to 2x? What's the word Gain doing in there, exactly?
The rules as intended:
vine gains exactly 2 life every upkeep. deathlock can prevent it from gaining 2 life that specific upkeep.

I'm surprised its not in the rules supplement. I checked jsut now.
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sIKE

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2015, 11:49:24 AM »
Looking at this [mwcard=DNJ10]card[/mwcard], I wonder how it works thematically. Do the Crush Tokens represent the Vine growing larger, engulfing and squeezing the target with more vines? This is why the damage increases each round and why the vine grows 2 life every round? If it is getting "bigger" then it is much better represented with Innate Life much like Growth Markers do.
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echephron

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2015, 12:18:49 PM »

Looking at this [mwcard=DNJ10]card[/mwcard], I wonder how it works thematically. Do the Crush Tokens represent the Vine growing larger, engulfing and squeezing the target with more vines? This is why the damage increases each round and why the vine grows 2 life every round? If it is getting "bigger" then it is much better represented with Innate Life much like Growth Markers do.
yup

This spell was before my playtester time, so this was my opinion when it came out:
Thematically, they should have been growth markers with innate life. I'm guessing the +3innate life was too good for them so they dropped it to +2life.
I'm also not keen on the upkeep+x for needless complexity. too late to do anythign about it other than rules supplements sadly
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Zuberi

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2015, 03:18:58 PM »
It does need to be added to the Rules and Codex Supplement, I agree, and possibly errata'd just for clarity. However, here is the ruling you are looking for where Laddinfance clarifies that your first solution is the correct one. Because of the trait, it gains 2 Life each upkeep and only 2 Life. It does not compound.

Now that we have the main question out of the way, you make several valid points that I'd like to discuss. First, it doesn't need to say the word "trait." Life +X is a trait regardless, just like Melee +X is always a trait. Now, since in this case we have a trait with a variable component to it, it is certainly a valid question as to whether you calculate that variable just at the time of casting or do you continue to update the variable each time it changes. With the confirmation from Laddinfance, we know that you are supposed to continuously update it each time the number of Crush tokens changes, but we don't really have rules for handling traits that behave this way currently.

I'm pretty much certain that the intention is not for Death Lock to eliminate the Life that has already been acquired, since Finite Life doesn't tend to negate previous increases to one's Life. However, it could be argued that changing the variable also applies a new time stamp to the trait, and thus Death Lock would cancel out the entire thing. We don't have any official word on this, but I would be very surprised if the previous gains went away.

So, assuming you can keep the previous gains to Life, what happens when the variable increases? Since the time stamp of the trait obviously isn't changed under this assumption, it is feasible that the Life gain bypasses the Finite Life trait. However, I'm pretty certain in this instance that they did not intend for it to bypass Finite Life like this. Which means that the changes to the variable would have their own time stamps separate from the trait itself.

Again, simply assuming this is the case because we have no official word, if we go with this then the typical way that Death Lock works in these situations, such as if you were to apply Bull Endurance after the Finite Life was applied, is that it suppresses the Life +X trait rather than countering it. This is because the trait is a constant effect rather than a one time effect (which would have resulted in the value always being 0 for Stranglevine if it was only one time). Thus, if Finite Life is removed, the creature would immediately gain all of the Life that was being denied to it all at once.

So, to recap, we have the following three possibilities:
1. Each time the variable changes, it applies a new time stamp to the trait resulting in Finite Life removing the entire thing and Stranglevine being reduced to only it's base Life.

2. Changes to the variable are able to ignore the Finite Life trait because they neither have nor change any time stamps.

3. Changes to the variable have their own time stamp separate from the Life +X trait, allowing Finite Life to prevent further increases to the trait but not negating the increases already acquired. This is what I believe to be correct, but only by making assumptions as to the designers intentions. All three are equally valid according to the official rules we currently have, as far as I know. As echephron stated, I too was not a playtester yet for this card.

RomeoXero

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2015, 07:36:30 PM »
As I see it worded the SV should gain 2 life after its first upkeep, then 4, then 6 then 8, etc. Is this not the case? If it didn't then why doesn't the wording even use an X for a variable value. If it only gains 2 life a round then why would there even be a multiplier to the variable, it would just say gains 2 life and the variable becomes un needed. I realise that this isn't the bones of the OP, and it's more about the finite life issue, but I would really like to know what the actual life gain numbers would be.

As I stated before it should ( by the wording currently) gain 2 life (2 × X where X = 1 crush token) after the first upkeep, then 4 life (2× X where X = 2), then 6 life ( 2× X were X=3) ad infinitum.

Another issue is does the life gain stack or does the next life gain replace the other for example: ( upkeep the first, SV deals 1 damage, gains life and is now at 8 life. 2Nd upkeep SV does 2 damage, gains life and is now at 12 (6+2+4) third upkeep SV deals 3 damage gains life is now at 18 life (6+2+4+6) etc.)

Alternatively if the life gain is replaced by the previous, then it looks more like this: ( 1st UK 1 damage gains 2 lifemax= 8, 2nd UK deals 2 damage gains 4, replaces the 2 gain, lifemax=10 (6+4) 3rd UK deals 3, gains 6, replaces the 4 lifemax = 12)

Which if any of these is correct? I read it like example 1. Not example 2, due to the existance of the X as a multiplier variable.
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Kharhaz

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2015, 08:16:59 PM »
Without going into specifics,

During playtesting it was asked if using growth tokens instead of the 2 per round was acceptable. It was decided that +3 life per round was a bit much.  I can tell you with 100% certainty that it gains +2 life each round.

DaveW

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2015, 08:39:23 PM »
Maybe the life total on the right of the card should just say "6+2X" instead of the current "6" ... you wouldn't need to add some of the text to the card at the bottom that way.
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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2015, 09:32:23 PM »
It was before my time, but if I had to guess, I'd say that the problem is a lack of space. It's a lot of text.
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exid

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2015, 12:32:07 AM »
i didn't read all this topic, but the card sais:
"Stranglevine gains life +2x", between to "."

so it's life is 6+2x at any time. isn't it clear?

Mithror

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2015, 02:26:37 AM »
A lot of interesting points, thanks for redirecting me to laddinface's post. That certainly makes it clear how to play it. In this case, though, it would have made more sense to have the card say: Gain Life +2. Or have it say Life +2X, next to Upkeep +X. As it is now, it would definitely need to be in the rules supplement to avoid confusion!

I can easily make the 2 life gain each time a token is added and increased damage make sense, as you could imagine the vine adding another coil for strangulation, each coil having 2 Life and starting with 3 coils. The first three just keep you in place, while each extra coil does 1 extra damage. Hence, each upkeep the damage increases, but the life gain does not. In this sense too it would have made sense if the card had said: Gain Life +2. As that could have been linked to the steps to undertake in the upkeep phase: add Crush token, X damage, Life +2. Even better, the card could just have said: When you pay Stranglevine's Upkeep cost, it gains 2 Life and the creature attached receives X direct damage.. A bit less text and more clear for ruling! :)

With regards to Finite Life, I think it makes sense that the Life is stuck at whatever is was before the trait applied and gets bumped to the correct (6 + 2X) value once the trait goes away, so I agree with the assumption  made that this is probably the correct way to interpret:

3. Changes to the variable have their own time stamp separate from the Life +X trait, allowing Finite Life to prevent further increases to the trait but not negating the increases already acquired. This is what I believe to be correct, but only by making assumptions as to the designers intentions. All three are equally valid according to the official rules we currently have, as far as I know. As echephron stated, I too was not a playtester yet for this card.
It would be nice to get confirmation of this in the rules supplement though :)

jacksmack

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2015, 03:54:34 AM »
i didn't read all this topic, but the card sais:
"Stranglevine gains life +2x", between to "."

so it's life is 6+2x at any time. isn't it clear?

Not sure if serious.

Zuberi

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2015, 06:42:22 AM »
i didn't read all this topic, but the card sais:
"Stranglevine gains life +2x", between to "."

so it's life is 6+2x at any time. isn't it clear?

You are correct. "Stranglevine gains life +2x" is a separate sentence, and Stranglevine always has that trait, thus it always has 6+2x Life. It's not so much gaining Life each round as it is just a constantly changing variable in an existing trait. However, it isn't entirely clear how to handle a trait with a constantly changing variable like this. I listed the three possible solutions I can come up with for dealing with this, and indicated the one which I believe to be correct.

@RomeoXero: That is most certainly not the case. I provided a link to the relevant ruling in my previous post, but it has definitely been confirmed that the Stranglevine only gains 2 Life each time it adds a crush token. The gains do not compound like you are thinking they might. As to why they chose to go this route, I can only speculate, but here are a few possibilities.

1. Gaining Life like [mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ01]Sunfire Amulet[/mwcard] is not the same thing as gaining the Life +X trait. The former is an immediate change and is cancelled entirely by Finite Life, while the latter is a permanent change and merely suppressed.

2. Linking the Life trait to the Crush tokens is thematic. The vine gets bigger, stronger, and healthier with the more crush tokens it has. This also allows for the theoretical possibility of the vine getting weaker with the loss of crush tokens as well. Though it is not currently possible to get rid of these tokens, if it were the vine would immediately lose Life as well, while some other proposed methods would not cause a loss in Life.

3. Whatever their intention for the function, the card is bloated with text and they just couldn't fit much onto it to clarify their intentions. I believe they went with the variable to try and save space, since X was already going to be defined on the card as equal to the number of Crush tokens to determine how much Upkeep was paid and how much damage was done. They simply tried to capitalize on this for efficiency, but sacrificed a little clarity. That doesn't excuse the lack of clarification in the Rules and Codex Supplement, but they are a small company and I'm sure they'll get to it eventually; especially now that it is being brought to their attention.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2015, 07:00:04 AM »
Why not just errata growth tokens to be like damage or mana, where they can have different values that stack? Then you could have a 2-life growth token. Then they could just say upkeep +x, x=damage, damage*2=growth value. It's easier to say, and it could be like the strangevine is stealing nutrients and energy from the creature its attached to.
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exid

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2015, 09:16:06 AM »
i didn't read all this topic, but the card sais:
"Stranglevine gains life +2x", between to "."

so it's life is 6+2x at any time. isn't it clear?

Not sure if serious.

totally serious!
6 is de basis life, x is the number of token, at any time you can calculate
life at that time = 6 + 2x
(or did i really missed something?)