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Author Topic: Mind Control Reveal Queastion  (Read 11127 times)

DallasSooner87

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Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« on: May 24, 2013, 04:40:53 PM »
So, my gf and I were playing last night, and we had a question about Mind Control. We felt  "Between Action Phases," could potentially be interpreted 3 ways.

Does this mean:

A) Between the Mind Controlled creature's action phase?

B) Between any in play creature's Action Phase.?

C) During the Planning Stage which happens between Action Stages?

Thanks.

Boomer Sooner

sIKE

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2013, 09:21:01 PM »
We have a circular logic problem :)
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DallasSooner87

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2013, 10:12:50 PM »
We have a circular logic problem :)

Is there another interpretation I am missing? The more I think about it the more cross eyed I get. Maybe I am just over thinking the card.

Wiz-Pig

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2013, 10:21:55 PM »
This was actually already answered in the previous thread. The reason Mind Control says that it can only be revealed between Action Phases is to limit it so that, unlike other enchantments, it cannot be revealed in the middle of a creatures Action Phase. So the answer to your question is B.

As Arcanus Stated: "Mind control cannot be revealed during an Action Phase of a creature. We had to do this because it can create a weird anomaly when control changes hands while acting."

DallasSooner87

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2013, 04:05:24 PM »
This was actually already answered in the previous thread. The reason Mind Control says that it can only be revealed between Action Phases is to limit it so that, unlike other enchantments, it cannot be revealed in the middle of a creatures Action Phase. So the answer to your question is B.

As Arcanus Stated: "Mind control cannot be revealed during an Action Phase of a creature. We had to do this because it can create a weird anomaly when control changes hands while acting."

Thanks Wiz-Pig. I was just misinterpreting what he was saying in the other thread, then.

Shad0w

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2013, 11:36:49 AM »
And a Pair of stickers for the swine mage.  :P
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


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DallasSooner87

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2013, 09:19:24 PM »
And a Pair of stickers for the swine mage.  :P

Thanks for the excellent forum moderation and giving me a new goal. Earn Banana Sticker.

krj

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2013, 09:40:03 AM »
i want to clarify one thing in that statement:

B) Between any in play creature's Action Phase.?

is it possible to reveal Mind Control, before first Action Phase (it is said between, so for me it means after at least one creature make it's action) in Action Stage?

Example:
some mage has initiative, do or not do his QuickCast, then Forcemaster is doing his QC where he put unrevealed Mind Control on opponents creature. End of QC Phase, Action Stage begins, and opponent has a move. Can Forcemaster reveal now MC or have to wait with that until there will be gap between Action Phases?


Zuberi

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2013, 03:25:32 PM »
I've always interpreted "between" to mean "before or after". Thus, you would be able to reveal it before the first creature's action phase. You just can not reveal it during their action. Once that marker is flipped, you have to wait until they are completely finished doing what they want to do.

lettucemode

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2013, 03:34:04 PM »
Agree with Zuberi. I have also interpreted it to mean that Mind Control can be revealed during the Ready Stage too, for example right after the Upkeep Phase.

Zuberi

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2013, 03:41:20 PM »
Yeah, actually rethinking it, I think I chose my wording poorly because I agree it can be revealed during the ready stage. Thus a better way to say it methinks would be that "between means NOT during." Any time is fine as long as it is not during an action.

sIKE

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2013, 07:12:28 PM »
We always played it that it has to happen before the Action marker is flipped for a Creature or Mage during the action phase and anytime in the Ready Stage.
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DeckBuilder

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Question
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2013, 02:33:33 AM »
I think this again demonstrates just how urgently we need a proper constantly updated Living FAQ!

Firstly, the Arcanus ruling (in the "Mind Control" rules thread) was simply:

Mind control cannot be revealed during an Action Phase of a creature. We had to do this because it can create a weird anomaly when control changes hands while acting.

Sometime later, I made this statement...

BETWEEN ACTIONS

What constitutes "between actions" (e.g. Charm, Mind Control).
I have interpreted it to mean "not during an action's steps" rather than the literal between 2 actions in the same turn.

So, in the Lord of Fire example above, if Player B had a hidden Charm on him, could he simply reveal the Charm when Lord of Fire is activated (before taking any actions), even though this will be the first action of the round?

My interpretation at the time was based on the following logic. In my Rulebook (version 2 though it doesn't say so, add version control), on page 19 sidebar "When can you reveal an Enchantment?", there are 5 bullet points detailing when you can reveal a normal enchantment. My interpretation at the time was that Mind Control could be revealed during the first 2 instances only:
(1) at the end of any Phase
(2) when a creature is activated, before it chooses its action
The other 3 instances when enchantments can be revealed are all explicitly during a creature's Action Phase. In that thread, Shad0w and Kharhaz posted after me and did not refute my statement (but they shied away from the topic entirely so no endorsement either).

However, I have now changed my position. Here are 2 examples why.

Example 1: Opponent has Initiative and I have 10 mana in my Forcemaster's mana pool (so not telegraphed). In my last delayed action (opponent has 1 action after me if he has overlap, probable as I am the Forcemaster), my mage moves 1 to be adjacent to Beastmaster's buffed Grizzly and casts Mordok's Obelisk (paying 8 ) in an eligible safe adjacent zone. In the Final Quickcast phase, as the last spell possible, I cast Mind Control (paying 2) on the Grizzly who is within range 1. Next round, I Channel 10 and at the end of the Reset phase, I reveal Mind Control (paying 8 ) so the Grizzly has a Stun marker and choosing the order of upkeep effects, I don't pay its Obelisk upkeep and it is destroyed before I have to pay Mind Control upkeep.

Example 2: Opponent has Initiative and I have Wand of Healing (cost 2), crucial for Forcemaster removing conditions on her. In the Final Quickcast phase, as the last spell possible, I cast Mind Control (paying 2) on a buffed Grizzly who is within range 1 of me and in the same zone as the Beastmaster. Next round, I have Initiative. At end of Deployment Phase, I reveal Mind Control (paying 8 ) so the Grizzly has a Stun marker on him. As the first action of this round, I activate the Grizzly but before its action phase, I Quickcast Cleansing Light from my Wand of Healing to remove the Stun (paying 4). I then full action attack the Beastmaster with my Bear Strength Grizzly for 9 dice piercing 1.

In both examples, the opponent has no defence (not even a psychic "I picked Dispel" or I have Dispel on a Mage Wand). I hence contend Mind Control's restrictions (between action phases while within 1 and Stunned when control changes) were designed to prevent this.

On all game rulings, I now believe in this Meta Rule:

In the absence of a ruling in a FAQ (or a Rules thread here), you follow the card Read As Written (RAW) and not Read As Intended (RAI) as the latter method is entirely subjective.

Here are examples where verbatim interpretations must be used:
* The Druid may place Vine Markers in zones not in LOS (not cited) but targeting with vines spells requires LOS from casting source.
* Teleport Trap and Enchantment Transfusion do not require LOS because the effect does not cite it.
* You may reveal Enchantment Transfusion when Seeking Dispel is cast on another enchantment on that creature (to move the target frozen-hidden enchantment to the same attached location so as to counter the Seeking Dispel as per the FAQ ruling page 3).

Following the Rulebook's sidebar which lists all opportunities for revealing, I believe only the second opportunity listed applies (when a creature is activated, before it chooses its actions) as it must apply to at least 1 of them. Also, as cards can impose superseding rules, Mind Control (and Charm) must be revealed "between Actions". So my answer now is:

Mind Control can only be revealed when a creature is activated, before it chooses actions, but not on the first activation of a round.

Please highlight any random prior thread where this literal interpretation has been contradicted.

Please please please Arcane Wonders, can we have some clarity on the huge growing list of card wordings and interactions and rules ambiguities (such as all those points in my "House Rules and some clarifications" thread of sometime ago)? It does not look good to have customers making up their own interpretations because enquiries on this Rules section are left unanswered. A large proportion of games players are sticklers for rules (not me, I'm happy to House Rule) and this hurts your appeal to them. I can't remember how many times I've confidently asserted "it's in the FAQ that this is how the card works", totally fibbing to win them over to the game because I know that newbie player would not be impressed by rules with all these grey areas.

A Living FAQ, constantly updated with a version reference. Please? You are harming the product without it.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 11:25:26 AM by DeckBuilder »
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Zuberi

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2013, 03:03:02 AM »
You contradict yourself at one point, DeckBuilder. First, you say that Mind Control should follow the second bulletpoint on the side bar of page 19 in the Rulebook: "Immediately after a creature is activated, before it chooses its actions for the turn." Then you state that it could not be revealed when the very first creature is activated for the round. I fail to see how that would not be "between" action phases when it is at every other time. It is after the last action phase from last round, and before the first action phase of this round. That = Between.

I would argue that RAW points more towards the first bulletpoint than the second. The text on Mind Control does not say "between actions" rather it says "between action phases." Charm is the same.  Thus, I believe the first and fifth bulletpoints are the only ones which would apply. The fifth one reads "immediately after it is cast, right after the Resolve Spell Step." Once that action marker is flipped, the action phase has begun and that is when you are unable to reveal the enchantment.

DeckBuilder

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Re: Mind Control Reveal Queastion
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2013, 03:20:10 AM »
I don't think I am contradicting myself.

Here is my logic why the Ready Stage is not between Action Phases.
1. A Game is played in Rounds
2. Each Round has 2 different Stages, a Ready Stage then an Action Stage.
3. During the Action Stage, there are at least 2 Action Phases.
This is the time when Mind Control can be revealed, "between Action Phases".
Then the Action Stage is over.
There is no rollover into the next Round because we have an intervening Ready Stage.
Game > Round > Stage > Phase (if we were to create a tree priority)
That is how the game is designed.
So once Action Stage is over, that's it: Action Phases are over and we change both Round and Stage.
This is where we differ.

You may well be right and my logic may be flawed.


On your other point:
The fifth reveal bullet point (reveal when casting Mind Control) cannot be true because you are in the midst of a friendly action phase.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 03:42:24 AM by DeckBuilder »
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