Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Shad0w on July 07, 2014, 01:30:06 PM
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It is puzzle time all.
Why does [mwcard=MW1E10] Decoy[/mwcard] give back the mana when it is destroyed by [mwcard=MW1I24] Seeking Dispel[/mwcard]?
Let see who can explain it best.
If you can explain this correctly in detail I will give you 2 stickers. 8)
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Both cards have 2 parts.
[mwcard=MW1I24]Seeking Dispel[/mwcard]'s clauses are:
Destroy target hidden enchantment.
and
Controller of target enchantment cannot reveal the enchantment once [mwcard=MW1I24]Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] has been cast.
[mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] clauses are:
When [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] is revealed, destroy it.
and
When this spell is destoyed it's controller gains 2 mana.
So, the relevant interaction are [mwcard=MW1I24]Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] 1st and [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] 2nd.
By reading them together we get: Destroy target hidden enchantment. When [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] is destroyed, it's controller gains 2 mana.
Neither the reveal portion of [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] or the you may not reveal clause from [mwcard=MW1I24]Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] are relevant here. The original caster still controls the [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] when it is destroyed, and since the 2nd clause is independent from the 1st, the fact that it wasn't revealed doesn't matter and the controller gets the mana.
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I will give this a day or 2 and best answer gets the prize. 8)
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The FAQ under 'Decoy' says:
'Because enchantments are always automatically revealed whenever they are destroyed'
I just went through rulebook v. 2.0 and I could not find anything to back this up.
So currently it appears to me that this 'because ....' was added to clarify the decoy vs seeking dispel context.
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The only way it works is via the FAQ entry that jacksmack mentioned. Does a creature that Bear Strength is attached to get the +2 Melee when the enchant is still face down?...No. Does a creature with Ghoul Rot attached to it take 2 damage every round while the Ghoul Rot is face down?...No. Then why does Decoy's text trigger while it is face down?
It doesn't, it shouldn't, but for that little sentence in the FAQ which, in my opinion, destroys the consistency of the enchantment rules.
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It is puzzle time all.
Why does [mwcard=MW1E10] Decoy[/mwcard] give back the mana when it is destroyed by [mwcard=MW1I24] Seeking Dispel[/mwcard]?
Let see who can explain it best.
If you can explain this correctly in detail I will give you 2 stickers. 8)
Because "Destroyed" effects (effects that occur when the spell is destroyed) are treated differently than all other effects in the game in that they apply to their enchantments even when unrevealed. Since the effect does not require that Decoy be revealed, it doesn't matter that Seeking Dispel prevents it from being revealed.
An excellent example is the cantrip trait on Standard Bearer and Barkskin. Even if these enchantments are destroyed while unrevealed, they are still returned to the spellbook.
Of course, Cantrips came after Seeking Dispel, so a better answer is probably that the rules supplement says that it does. It would be a good idea to make explicit this generalization (that Destroyed effects apply to unrevealed enchantments) in the rules.
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Cantrip is different.
Its a trait that takes effect when a card is destroyed.
It does not matter HOW its destroyed. If I cast stand bearer on a target my opponent has a nullify on, then I still get this card returned to hand even though it was never resolved.
Decoy does not grant mana if it were never resolved (aka when it hits a nullify).
EDIT:
The information in this post is false according to the newest FAQ.
Both 'Destroyed' and 'Returning Spells to Your Spellbook' describes this.
EDIT 2:
And then 'Cantrip' comes and owns the first EDIT:
If a spell with the Cantrip trait would be discarded or destroyed for any reason (including being countered), it is instead returned to its owners spellbook. Exception: The Obliterate effect destroys an object and removes it from the game. Obliterate will remove a Cantrip spell from the game.
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Seeking Dispel prevent Decoy to be revealed once it is cast, but once Seeking Dispel is resolved, Decoy is destroyed, so it get revealed because Seeking Dispel existence is no more, so doesnt prevent the reveal caused by destruction of Decoy.
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I have a slightly different theory:
Seeking dispel says controller of TARGET hidden enchantment cannot reveal that enchantment once seeking dispel has been cast. But once the enchant is destroyed it's no longer in play to be targeted by seeking dispel. Since the destroyed enchantment is no longer a legal target for Seeking Dispel, the "target cannot be revealed" clause ends, and the destroyed enchantment can be revealed.
Although if this is the case, you might want to clarify the definitions of "Target" and "in play" in the codex. I'm assuming in play refers to being in the arena. I'm guessing that spells that target card(s) in a discard pile are exceptions to the "only in play cards can be targeted" rule.
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My theory is that the rules were made by guys living in Colorado and Washington state..... ???
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tl;dr: If decoy were hidden when it would activate, it wouldn't trigger because hidden enchantments have no effect, and Decoy doesn't specify or require that it triggers while hidden. But instead of triggering when revealed, Decoy triggers when it's destroyed. A destroyed Decoy isn't hidden anymore because only in-play enchantments are hidden, and a destroyed Decoy isn't in play. And it's ok for Decoy to trigger and do stuff even after it's destroyed because Decoy clearly says it does, and if there is a conflict between a card and the rules, the card wins.
Ok, as always, we start by looking up all the easily relevant rules information for [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard].
Decoy
- If Decoy is destroyed while still unrevealed (e.g. by a Seeking Dispel), its controller still gains the 2 mana.
- If Decoy is countered (e.g. by Nullify), its controller does not gain the 2 mana, because the enchantment never resolved to have its effect.
- If Decoy is discarded from somewhere other than play, such as if it had been planned to be cast with a familiar which then is destroyed, it does not gain its owner 2 mana.
Well, ok. So we know what the interaction is, but why does it work?
Let's look at some of the enchantment rules:
There is no limit to the number of different enchantments that can be attached to an object, but each object or zone cannot have more than one enchantment with the same name attached to it at one time. This includes both hidden and revealed enchantments. For example, you cannot attach two Bear Strength spells to the same creature.
This rules passage isn't directly relevant, but it does tell us something important about the general philosophy of enchantments. A hidden [mwcard=MW1E01]Bear Strength[/mwcard] is still a Bear Strength. You can't have two face down Bear Strengths on the same creature, because you can't have two enchantments with the same name attached to the same object, and even when it's hidden the name of a hidden Bear Strength is Bear Strength.
So why doesn't a hidden Bear Strength give a creature Melee +2? Because the rules say so.
Important: Hidden Enchantments have no effect as long as they are hidden!
Ok! But what about [mwcard=MW1E29]Nullify[/mwcard]?
You'll notice that Nullify has rules text that operates while it is hidden. You must reveal Nullify when the creature it's attached to is targeted. That requirement functions even though Nullify is hidden. Being hidden doesn't stop Nullify's rules from working!
So why is Nullify an exception? Because the card says it is. Remember The Magic Rule on the first page of Chapter One of the rules?
The Magic Rule
Mage Wars is a game of magic and magic spells. Often, these spells will violate the normal rules in some way. In all cases, if there is a conflict between the text on a spell card and these rules, the spell card always takes precedence.
Since Nullify only works if it can trigger while it's hidden, it can!
Ok, so what? Decoy doesn't explicitly require that it functions when it's seeking dispelled. It would still work legally (but be worse) if it only functioned when it's controller chose to reveal it. How does The Magic Rule apply to Decoy?
To answer that question, we need to talk about another card: [mwcard=FWC03]Goblin Bomber[/mwcard]. Goblin Bomber has a very peculiar sort of attack that it can sometimes make when it is destroyed. Normally, an object can't do anything when it's destroyed: a destroyed creature can't make a counterstrike against the attacker that destroyed it, or if a creature burns to death at the start of the upkeep none of its upkeep triggered abilities will later be used.
But Goblin Bomber is different. It can be destroyed and then make an attack. [mwcard=DNC09]Plague Zombie[/mwcard] and [mwcard=DNE02]Rise Again[/mwcard] also have similar rules. Because these cards must work after they're destroyed, the cards do actually work after they're destroyed. That's The Magic Rule in action.
Decoy is one such card. Decoy says, "When this Spell is Destroyed, its controller gains 2 mana." Decoy reaches into our world with glowing gifts on prehensile tendrils from beyond the grave! Spooky!
Er, yes, I was saying....
Let's put all this together then.
A hidden Decoy is still a Decoy, even though it's hidden. When Decoy is destroyed, it's not in play anymore, and we follow the rules for what to do when an enchantment is destroyed: we put it in it's owner's discard pile.
Any spell or object that is destroyed is always placed in its owner’s discard pile
Now, normally we'd ignore a hidden Decoy's abilities because it's hidden, but (and this is the important part) in order for an enchantment to be hidden, it needs to be in play.
Enchantments are different from all other types of spells in Mage Wars because they are played face down. Your opponent does not know what your enchantment does until you reveal it! A face down enchantment is called a hidden enchantment. You may examine your own hidden enchantments at any time. Enchantments create an object in the arena that remains in play until destroyed.
Since only enchantments that are in play face down are hidden enchantments, once the enchantment is destroyed and leaves play it's not a hidden enchantment anymore. Remember the rule? "Hidden Enchantments have no effect as long as they are hidden!" Time's up!*
And since it was in play as a Decoy, and left play as a destroyed Decoy, its on-destruction ability triggers! The Decoy's controller gets 2 mana! Hurrah!
This, by the way, also explains why a Nullified Decoy or a discarded Decoy doesn't give any mana. If the Decoy never enters play, its rules never take effect at all, and its trigger condition is never met. And in the absence of specific instructions from the card, the normal game rules apply, and the discarded Decoy just sits like a lump.
Poor lumpy Decoy!
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ICLtfUsRJ78/UbsWMbehg9I/AAAAAAAACX4/Z1rkU27hzuw/s400/decoy-core.jpg)
Any questions?
*Ollie Ollie Oxen Free! Last one to the discard pile is a rotten egg!
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When Decoy is hit by seeking dispel you are not revealling it as such.
Revealling means pay reveal cost and flip card face up. This does not happen because of the restrictions from seeking dispel even though the reveal cost is 0.
Rather decoy is destroyed by seeking dispel and a destroyed effect takes place due to the text on decoy.
Lets pretend decoy costs 1 mana to reveal instead of 0.
Your mage has a Face down decoy on self, and 10 mana.
The mage can pay 1 mana to reveal decoy which destroys it, and gain 2 mana from its destroyed effect.
You end up with 11 mana.
If the opponenet decides to seekign dispel your face down decoy, then the card would be destroyed without revealling it. The destroyed effect from decoy grants 2 mana.
You end up with 12 mana.
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Im sure I am late to the party for the 2 banana sticker so I will give you my simplified look at the spells
Decoy states: "When Decoy is revealed, destroy it. When this spell is destroyed, its controller gains 2 mana"
Seeking Dispel States: "Destroy target hidden enchantment. Controller of target enchantment cannot reveal the target enchantment once Seeking Dispel has been cast"
What's bolded in Decoy is the key statement. When this spell is destroyed, its controller gains 2 mana. It doesn't specify that the destruction needs to come from the revelation of this spell. It just says "When this spell is destroyed, its controller gains 2 mana"
Seeking dispel destroys enchantments before they can be reveal. Decoy doesn't have to be reveal to yield the 2 mana to its controller. It just needs to be destroyed. All revealing does for Decoy is give it another avenue for destruction.
I hope thats right ;D
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What does it mean to be Destroyed:
When an object is destroyed, everything attached to it is destroyed and discarded. This includes damage, condition markers, tokens, enchantments, and conjurations. Ability markers are returned to the Mage. Then, the object is placed in its owner’s discard pile.
The object may then resolve a “destroyed” effect. For example, a Plague Zombie will explode. Some effects replace being discarded such as Cantrip or Obliterate
Discarding Spells
Each Mage has his own separate discard pile. Any spell or object that is destroyed is always placed in its owner’s discard pile (regardless of who “controls” it at the time). Many spells, such as incantations, are automatically discarded after they are resolved. Important: Any player may freely examine the contents of any discard pile at any time. Cards in your discard pile are “expended”. They are outside of your spellbook, and cannot be used again. Thus, each spell in your book can be cast only once during the game (unless a spell or
ability allows you to re-use it).
The reason I bring these 2 sections up is that when a hidden enchantment is destroyed it is turned face up by the rules of the game before entering the discard pile. We know this because all cards in the discard pile are public knowledge. "Any player may freely examine the contents of any discard pile at any time." Seeking Dispel prevents the controller of the target enchantment form revealing the enchantment but as part of the destroy effect it is then turned face up allowing the Decoy destruction trigger to happen.
Who had the best answer?
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Me?
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But nobody had it in full detail. We did have a few people that got very close.
I am going to quote a few people below so we can compare and see who did the best overall ruling?
blackirishguilt
Both cards have 2 parts.
[mwcard=MW1I24]Seeking Dispel[/mwcard]'s clauses are:
Destroy target hidden enchantment.
and
Controller of target enchantment cannot reveal the enchantment once [mwcard=MW1I24]Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] has been cast.
[mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] clauses are:
When [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] is revealed, destroy it.
and
When this spell is destoyed it's controller gains 2 mana.
So, the relevant interaction are [mwcard=MW1I24]Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] 1st and [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] 2nd.
By reading them together we get: Destroy target hidden enchantment. When [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] is destroyed, it's controller gains 2 mana.
Neither the reveal portion of [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] or the you may not reveal clause from [mwcard=MW1I24]Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] are relevant here. The original caster still controls the [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] when it is destroyed, and since the 2nd clause is independent from the 1st, the fact that it wasn't revealed doesn't matter and the controller gets the mana.
jacksmack
The FAQ under 'Decoy' says:
'Because enchantments are always automatically revealed whenever they are destroyed'
I just went through rulebook v. 2.0 and I could not find anything to back this up.
So currently it appears to me that this 'because ....' was added to clarify the decoy vs seeking dispel context.
ACG
Because "Destroyed" effects (effects that occur when the spell is destroyed) are treated differently than all other effects in the game in that they apply to their enchantments even when unrevealed. Since the effect does not require that Decoy be revealed, it doesn't matter that Seeking Dispel prevents it from being revealed.
An excellent example is the cantrip trait on Standard Bearer and Barkskin. Even if these enchantments are destroyed while unrevealed, they are still returned to the spellbook.
Of course, Cantrips came after Seeking Dispel, so a better answer is probably that the rules supplement says that it does. It would be a good idea to make explicit this generalization (that Destroyed effects apply to unrevealed enchantments) in the rules.
Wildhorn
Seeking Dispel prevent Decoy to be revealed once it is cast, but once Seeking Dispel is resolved, Decoy is destroyed, so it get revealed because Seeking Dispel existence is no more, so doesnt prevent the reveal caused by destruction of Decoy.
Imaginator
I have a slightly different theory:
Seeking dispel says controller of TARGET hidden enchantment cannot reveal that enchantment once seeking dispel has been cast. But once the enchant is destroyed it's no longer in play to be targeted by seeking dispel. Since the destroyed enchantment is no longer a legal target for Seeking Dispel, the "target cannot be revealed" clause ends, and the destroyed enchantment can be revealed.
ringkichard
tl;dr: If decoy were hidden when it would activate, it wouldn't trigger because hidden enchantments have no effect, and Decoy doesn't specify or require that it triggers while hidden. But instead of triggering when revealed, Decoy triggers when it's destroyed. A destroyed Decoy isn't hidden anymore because only in-play enchantments are hidden, and a destroyed Decoy isn't in play. And it's ok for Decoy to trigger and do stuff even after it's destroyed because Decoy clearly says it does, and if there is a conflict between a card and the rules, the card wins.
Death-from-above
Decoy states: "When Decoy is revealed, destroy it. When this spell is destroyed, its controller gains 2 mana"
Seeking Dispel States: "Destroy target hidden enchantment. Controller of target enchantment cannot reveal the target enchantment once Seeking Dispel has been cast"
What's bolded in Decoy is the key statement. When this spell is destroyed, its controller gains 2 mana. It doesn't specify that the destruction needs to come from the revelation of this spell. It just says "When this spell is destroyed, its controller gains 2 mana"
Seeking dispel destroys enchantments before they can be reveal. Decoy doesn't have to be reveal to yield the 2 mana to its controller. It just needs to be destroyed. All revealing does for Decoy is give it another avenue for destruction.
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In terms of detail, I gotta vote for Kich.
Everyone elses explanation was good though.
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In terms of detail, I gotta vote for Kich.
Everyone elses explanation was good though.
I used strike to edit the in correct parts and underline to highlight key points. So what do all of you think after comparing?
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I was going to second a vote for krich, but then you had to go and strike all of his post.... :o Still the most entertaining though! :D
Death-from-above seemed to be pretty spot on, so I would say either one of those guys gets it.
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The reason I bring these 2 sections up is that when a hidden enchantment is destroyed it is turned face up by the rules of the game before entering the discard pile. We know this because all cards in the discard pile are public knowledge. "Any player may freely examine the contents of any discard pile at any time." Seeking Dispel prevents the controller of the target enchantment form revealing the enchantment but as part of the destroy effect it is then turned face up allowing the Decoy destruction trigger to happen.
So how does this rule interact with Brace Yourself! or [mwcard=MWSTX1CKE03]Healing Charm[/mwcard]? Because from what you've said in the quoted paragraph, it seems like the effects on those cards would trigger if they were Seeking Dispel'd.
Cards turning face up just so they can be looked through once they are in the discard pile seems like flimsy reasoning to me. Discard piles are public knowledge, as you've said, so someone could easily pick up their opponent's discard pile, flip the cards face-up, thumb through it, then put it back in place face-down if they wanted to without any additional justification.
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Honestly, in order to have Decoy work as intended, without unwanted complications from other spells, had to be clarified in the supplement. In all honesty it did not work correctly without that. This is a conversation that I've had back and forth about several times.
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I should make it clear that I don't intend to invalidate the work of all the playtesters and designers with my comments. This is a truly tricky rules situation in a game with a metric crap ton of interactions. Even with such fringe cases, I still think MW is one of the greatest games I've ever played, and I really appreciate all the hard work that went into making it what it is today!
Has an errata to Seeking Dispel been considered? What if "Controller of enchantment cannot reveal the enchantment once Seeking Dispel has been cast" was replaced with "If the target enchantment is revealed before Seeking Dispel's Resolve Spell step, destroy it anyway"?
EDIT: ahh, that still wouldn't work because you could reveal an enchantment like Healing Charm to get its effect before it was destroyed. Hmm, how about "Treat Seeking Dispel's three casting steps as if they were all one step"?
EDIT #2: But then Decoy dies without giving mana. Okay, I give up. :P
I liked kich's explanation, actually - "Destroyed" triggers still happen even if an enchantment is facedown when it's destroyed. That allows stuff like Cantrip to work too.
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The reason I bring these 2 sections up is that when a hidden enchantment is destroyed it is turned face up by the rules of the game before entering the discard pile. We know this because all cards in the discard pile are public knowledge. "Any player may freely examine the contents of any discard pile at any time." Seeking Dispel prevents the controller of the target enchantment form revealing the enchantment but as part of the destroy effect it is then turned face up allowing the Decoy destruction trigger to happen.
So how does this rule interact with Brace Yourself! or [mwcard=MWSTX1CKE03]Healing Charm[/mwcard]? Because from what you've said in the quoted paragraph, it seems like the effects on those cards would trigger if they were Seeking Dispel'd.
Cards turning face up just so they can be looked through once they are in the discard pile seems like a flimsy justification to me. Discard piles are public knowledge, as you've said, so someone could easily pick up their opponent's discard pile, flip the cards face-up, thumb through it, then put it back in place face-down if they wanted to without any additional justification.
They would not trigger. Their text says when Revealed, not when Destroyed.
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They would not trigger. Their text says when Revealed, not when Destroyed.
but as part of the destroy effect it is then turned face up allowing the Decoy destruction trigger to happen.
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That is why my explanation (with striked text) is the best. It could be even be simplified to:
Once Seeking Dispel is resolved, Decoy is destroyed, so it triggers.
Simple as that.
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Honestly, in order to have Decoy work as intended, without unwanted complications from other spells, had to be clarified in the supplement. In all honesty it did not work correctly without that. This is a conversation that I've had back and forth about several times.
Yup that is a story for another time
Back on topic I think 1 stick for black, acg, and death?
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That is why my explanation (with striked text) is the best. It could be even be simplified to:
Once Seeking Dispel is resolved, Decoy is destroyed, so it triggers.
Simple as that.
Face down enchants only affect the game if the card state it does. Decoy does not :P
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@Shadow you are just making my head spin. If it is face up in the Discard pile it is out of play how does it trigger?
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@Shadow you are just making my head spin. If it is face up in the Discard pile it is out of play how does it trigger?
because Decoy.
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Maybe they should errata decoy. Card text trumps rules after all, and it would be rather messy if the FAQ became a substitute for erratas, like say if the golden rule were changed to: "card text trumps rules, except for the FAQ which trumps card text."
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I'm not sure why you struck any of ACG's explanation. None of what you struck is incorrect.
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I'm not sure why you struck any of ACG's explanation. None of what you struck is incorrect.
The quote below is from ACGs post. Both statements are indeed incorrect. The only enchantments that work while face done have a clause to allow them to work while face down.
Since the effect does not require that Decoy be revealed, it doesn't matter that Seeking Dispel prevents it from being revealed.
An excellent example is the cantrip trait on Standard Bearer and Barkskin. Even if these enchantments are destroyed while unrevealed, they are still returned to the spellbook.
When enchantments are destroyed they are turned face up before being place in the discard pile. As Laddin stated without this cards like Decoy, Standard Bearer, and Barkskin would not function correctly.
1: The only times an enchant can be face down is during casting, while in play or while spellbound.
If you wanted to show the other players your planned cards you could but the rules of the game allow planned cards to be hidden. The quantity of cards planed is public knowledge.
In the rules enchantments are always cast face down and the while in play enchantments may turned face up later in the game
2: All card in the discard are public knowledge
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We are carefully looking at Decoy. It is a card that we are reviewing right now. We want it to work properly and without upsetting other cards. Right now, the end result is that the supplement clarifies how it does work. We're wanting to make that an easier conclusion to jump to without having to reference the entire supplement.
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It took me a while to wrap my head around this but I think it is starting to make sense. Before, I was simply following what the text ruling said; "When this spell is destroyed, its controller gains 2 mana", therefore once this spell was destroyed, regardless of how it was destroyed, the controller received 2 mana. All revealing does to decoy is destroys it. I think I was looking at the ruling wrong but inadvertently reached the correct conclusion.
Man, this is indeed a tricky ruling.
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I was ruling this wrong too. Here is my take on it (though I'm too late for any stickers :'( ):
Destruction: A spell is destroyed either by receiving damage equal or greater to its life points or by some effect which specifically destroys it. A destroyed spell is placed in its owners discard pile and then revealed, regardless of any effect stating otherwise (such as seeking dispel). A destroyed enchantment can activate its on-destruction effect if applicable.
"On-Destruction" effects: Upon destruction, a spell enters the discard pile then activates its on-destruction effect. Countered and obliterated spells cannot activate their on-destruction effects. These on-destruction effects act as if all spells and markers which were just destroyed or removed are still attached to their previous target(s) and are still in their previous zone(s).
Problems:
1) Why does [mwcard=DNE02] Rise Again's[/mwcard] on destruction effect only occur when revealed, but [mwcard=MW1E10] Decoy's[/mwcard] on destruction effect can happen when unrevealed?
Problem example: during the upkeep phase you don't pay upkeep on a creature and it is destroyed. Rise again's controller never gets a chance to reveal the enchantment, so no zombie is created.
2) Also, on-destruction effects occur from the discard pile, but spells and tokens are no longer attached in the discard pile, so how can rise again or eternal servant function?
3) Countered spells are listed as DESTROYED in the codex(but listed as discarded in the 3rd edition rulebook), but the rules supplement states "An object can only be destroyed from play." So a countered spell enters play but its on-destruction effect does not?
4) Revealing spells in the discard pile: [mwcard=MW1I24] Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] states specifically that the spell cannot be revealed, but once it enters the discard pile, it is revealed.
Example: when Decoy is [mwcard=MW1E29] Nullified[/mwcard] it is destroyed, but does not get its on-destruction effect.
What I would change(in order of helpfulness):
a) Countered spells are discarded rather than destroyed
b) "On-destruction" effects occur immediately before going to the discard pile so that all attached effects are still attached and so [mwcard=DNC09] Plague Zombie[/mwcard] clearly rots his zone and Rise Again makes a zombie of its attached creature.
c) The rules would be a lot simpler if Decoy just got an errata to say its effect worked even while hidden. Decoy is the only enchantment in the game which does something while remaining hidden. Rise again is not meant to work while hidden, but rule changes to allow for decoy might effect rise again.
d) A rule stating that the ondestruction effects of a hidden enchantment still occur(rise again and decoy). This is weird because until now, the specific text on hidden enchantments had no effect.
e) Different language for showing you the face of a card and Revealing an enchantment. especially for the discard pile.
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This is going to be a long explination.
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@echepron: Rise Again destruction effect only trigger when revealed because it is not the destruction of Rise Again that trigger it. It is the destruction of the attached object.
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1) Why does [mwcard=DNE02] Rise Again's[/mwcard] on destruction effect only occur when revealed, but [mwcard=MW1E10] Decoy's[/mwcard] on destruction effect can happen when unrevealed?
Problem example: during the upkeep phase you don't pay upkeep on a creature and it is destroyed. Rise again's controller never gets a chance to reveal the enchantment, so no zombie is created.
For [mwcard=DNE02] Rise Again's[/mwcard] on destruction effect to occure it must be face up when the creature is destroyed. If it is turned face up after the creature was destroyed as part of the destruction the time has already passed.
2) Also, on-destruction effects occur from the discard pile, but spells and tokens are no longer attached in the discard pile, so how can rise again or eternal servant function?
Destroyed
When an object is destroyed, everything attached to it is destroyed and discarded. This includes damage, condition markers, tokens, enchantments, and conjurations. Ability markers are returned to the Mage. Then, the object is placed in its owner’s discard pile. The object may then resolve a “destroyed” effect. For example, a Plague Zombie will explode. Some effects replace being discarded such as Cantrip or Obliterate.
Reanimate (Effect)
This creature reanimates upon death. If this creature is destroyed, it is moved from the discard pile to the zone it was just destroyed in, and placed face down in that zone, with a face-down action marker on it. This creature is considered temporarily out of play. At the end of the round, the creature card is flipped face up and is Summoned into play. Reanimate does not occur if the creature is removed from the game when it is destroyed. See “Obliterate.”
So now we have 2 events occurring Reanimate (Effect) and the removal of attached objects and tokens. Reanimate creates a delayed trigger even if the attached object is removed by the creature being destroyed because it triggers on the destruction and the removal occurs after the destruction effect.
3) Countered spells are listed as DESTROYED in the codex(but listed as discarded in the 3rd edition rulebook), but the rules supplement states "An object can only be destroyed from play." So a countered spell enters play but its on-destruction effect does not?
This is an issue of using the same word for different effects. That is why I asked for the change in the 3rd edition rulebook. A countered spell NEVER ENTERS PLAY and is placed in the discard.
4) Revealing spells in the discard pile: [mwcard=MW1I24] Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] states specifically that the spell cannot be revealed, but once it enters the discard pile, it is revealed.
Example: when Decoy is [mwcard=MW1E29] Nullified[/mwcard] it is destroyed, but does not get its on-destruction effect.
If you read [mwcard=MW1I24] Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] it states the controller of the targeted enchant may not reveal it. It will still be turn face up be game effects.
a) Countered spells are discarded rather than destroyed
This is true as of the v3 rulebook
b) "On-destruction" effects occur immediately before going to the discard pile so that all attached effects are still attached and so [mwcard=DNC09] Plague Zombie[/mwcard] clearly rots his zone and Rise Again makes a zombie of its attached creature.
They are still attached before going to the discard then as part of going to the discard they are no longer attached.
c) The rules would be a lot simpler if Decoy just got an errata to say its effect worked even while hidden. Decoy is the only enchantment in the game which does something while remaining hidden. Rise again is not meant to work while hidden, but rule changes to allow for decoy might effect rise again.
Rise again does not work while hidden.
d) A rule stating that the ondestruction effects of a hidden enchantment still occur(rise again and decoy). This is weird because until now, the specific text on hidden enchantments had no effect.
[mwcard=FWE09] Standard Bearer[/mwcard], [mwcard=DNE01] Barkskin[/mwcard], [mwcard=MW1E10] Decoy[/mwcard] all have on destruction effects that work while hidden. Rise Again does not work while hidden.
e) Different language for showing you the face of a card and Revealing an enchantment. especially for the discard pile.
This was recomended for the next rulebook when we do a revision.
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One question though. Is it actually stated anywhere that the cards in the discard pile are face-up? Or is it just assumed so since everyone is allowed to examine the contents of it? I mean, theoretically, the pile can be face-down and people can still examine the content in it, either by looking at the backs of the cards, or just lifting the pile above your head and examine in it.
The question is stupid, but I dont like rulings based on implied conclusions.
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One question though. Is it actually stated anywhere that the cards in the discard pile are face-up? Or is it just assumed so since everyone is allowed to examine the contents of it? I mean, theoretically, the pile can be face-down and people can still examine the content in it, either by looking at the backs of the cards, or just lifting the pile above your head and examine in it.
The question is stupid, but I dont like rulings based on implied conclusions.
Face up, face down, on table, under tabke, on your head... Doesnt matter. As soon as it is in the discard pile the information is avaible.
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One question though. Is it actually stated anywhere that the cards in the discard pile are face-up? Or is it just assumed so since everyone is allowed to examine the contents of it? I mean, theoretically, the pile can be face-down and people can still examine the content in it, either by looking at the backs of the cards, or just lifting the pile above your head and examine in it.
The question is stupid, but I dont like rulings based on implied conclusions.
My team helped with making the rulebook ready for release. We joined the MW play test team almost a year before release.
Important:
Any player may freely examine the contents of any discard pile at any time.
This gets into what is and is not public information during a game.
Hidden Information:
Hidden information refers to the information which the rules of the game do not allow a player and/or a spectator to view.
Some Examples are Cards in an opponent's spellbook, hidden enchantments controlled by opponent, cards your opponent planned, face down Spellbound cards controlled by opponent
Players may choose to reveal their hands or any other hidden information available only to them
Public Information:
Public Informationrefers to the information which the rules of the game do allow a player and/or a spectators to view
Some examples would be
Number for cards planned
Casting cost and level of face up object in play
Total Channeling value of an object
Damage on an object
Mana in a players pool
Location of an object in the Arena
Cards in players discard pile
With all Enchantments, Spellbound cards, and cards planned on Spawnpoints when the object they are attached to is destroyed those cards are placed face up in the discard.
We felt it should not have to be explicitly written in the core rule book. This gets into the finite tournament rules that over 70% will never use 8)
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So if Decoy triggers after Seeking Dispel because it is turned up before it’s destroyed, does Divine Intervention trigger too?
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One question though. Is it actually stated anywhere that the cards in the discard pile are face-up? Or is it just assumed so since everyone is allowed to examine the contents of it? I mean, theoretically, the pile can be face-down and people can still examine the content in it, either by looking at the backs of the cards, or just lifting the pile above your head and examine in it.
The question is stupid, but I dont like rulings based on implied conclusions.
My team helped with making the rulebook ready for release. We joined the MW play test team almost a year before release.
Important:
Any player may freely examine the contents of any discard pile at any time.
This gets into what is and is not public information during a game.
Hidden Information:
Hidden information refers to the information which the rules of the game do not allow a player and/or a spectator to view.
Some Examples are Cards in an opponent's spellbook, hidden enchantments controlled by opponent, cards your opponent planned, face down Spellbound cards controlled by opponent
Players may choose to reveal their hands or any other hidden information available only to them
Public Information:
Public Informationrefers to the information which the rules of the game do allow a player and/or a spectators to view
Some examples would be
Number for cards planned
Casting cost and level of face up object in play
Total Channeling value of an object
Damage on an object
Mana in a players pool
Location of an object in the Arena
Cards in players discard pile
With all Enchantments, Spellbound cards, and cards planned on Spawnpoints when the object they are attached to is destroyed those cards are placed face up in the discard.
We felt it should not have to be explicitly written in the core rule book. This gets into the finite tournament rules that over 70% will never use 8)
I still think things like this should be written down explicitly in official rules documents of some kind. There are already plenty of things to keep track of in this game, and if all the rules are written down explicitly then it will be easier for more players to begin playing in tournaments. While I don't like using it as an example, Magic the gathering has two core rulebooks: a basic core rulebook and a comprehensive core rulebook. I think mage wars should do the same.
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So if Decoy triggers after Seeking Dispel because it is turned up before it’s destroyed, does Divine Intervention trigger too?
You are slightly mistaken. The only reveal effect that Decoy has is to destroy it, and it does not get to use this effect when destroyed by a Seeking Dispel. It then also has an on destruction effect in addition to that which triggers regardless of how it is destroyed. It is this on destruction effect that grants you 2 mana and that triggers when it is hit by a Seeking Dispel, or destroyed by any other means.
Divine Intervention does not have any on destruction effects. If it did, then it would work the same way. However, Divine Intervention only has a reveal effect and thus does nothing when destroyed, be it by Seeking Dispel or another means.
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Thanks!
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@Vulcan that is a topic for another time and place.