Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Wildhorn on June 03, 2014, 12:37:55 PM
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You are affected by Fortified Position and have 2 corrode markers on you.
If you move to another zone your armor drop to 0, so you lose the Corrode markers, but if you move to a zone with another Fortified Position, do you drop to 0 armor inbetween the zones or you stay at 2 the whole time and keep the Corrode markers?
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Currently I would say creatures can never be between zones so the armor would never drop to 0
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The rules supplement's section on movement does not allow for creatures being in between zones, nor does it allow for "time" in between the creature leaving one zone and entering the next. So I agree with Shad0w.
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So I think the question is as the creature moves from one zone to another does it loose the Armor granted by the enchantment and gain it from the other? If so does that constitute having no armor if this is the only armor the creature had?
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It's very important that - at all times - a creature is only ever in one zone. Also, a creature must always be in a zone (except in the case of Banish, which has its own rules text). As long as the creature is in play, the question "What zone is this creature in?" needs to have an answer. When a creature follows the movement steps, there is no step where the creature is not in one of the two zones, so there should not be a time where the +2 Armor is avoided.
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No argument there, creatures are always in a zone (other than when banished), the question is around zone effects and moving between zones. When I leave a zone with Fortified Position to a zone without a Fortified Position in play it is very simple you loose the Armor +2 and not much more thought is and would not be given to this fact. However when moving between two zones with the same zone effect at some point you technically have to drop the zone effect from Zone A and apply the zone effect from Zone B. The way Corrode is worded when going from A to B would you ever be at 0 Armor? I think not and think that the design intent would state that its a kinda of magic like two overlapping blankets....
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And what about the situation where your first move action is from a zone with Fortified Position to a non-enchanted zone? Do you lose the corrode markers immediately so that you can then return to the Fortified Zone with your second move action and end up with +2 armor but without any corrode marker?
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And what about the situation where your first move action is from a zone with Fortified Position to a non-enchanted zone? Do you lose the corrode markers immediately so that you can then return to the Fortified Zone with your second move action and end up with +2 armor but without any corrode marker?
yes
Another example for the same situation:
Two Bitterwood Foxes, with one corrode condition each, are in the same zone as Red Claw Alpha Male. If Red Claw moves out of the zone, each fox will lose 1 point of armor and the corrode marker as per corrode. If Red Claw uses the second move action to return to the zone, they get the point of armor back.
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sIKE, which zone would you be in when you lost the corrode marker?
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Since I do the stuff on OCTGN I have to think along the lines of code. I would have to zero out the armor from one zone and then add it back from the other zone, so 2-2 then 0+2 so in-between those operations I would be at zero, that is when....until I put in "unless" logic. Hence why I am being so pedantic around this question.
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Or, depending on how the code is written, calculate the new modifier for the creature's position, then overwrite the old with the new.
Move Action
When a creature moves from one zone to another, there is a specific sequence of events which must be followed. A creature might move to a new zone by taking a move action, or it might be Pushed or Teleported. Regardless as to how it moves to the new zone, it follows the move sequence below, although some parts or steps might be irrelevant. For example, a Teleport bypasses Walls and ignores Step 3 below.
1. Declare Move
Choose which zone the creature will move to. Check to see if the move is possible (for example, make sure no wall will block the move), and make sure the creature has an available action and is not Restrained, Rooted or Incapacitated. If you discover you made a mistake and the creature cannot be moved (for example, the wall is “Passage Blocks”, not “Passage Attacks”), you can cancel the move action and choose a different action instead. Then, pay any costs associated with the move (taking damage, or paying Suppression Orb's mana cost, etc.). At this time the move is committed to. If you cannot pay all of the costs, the move is cancelled, and you have lost the action.
2. Leaving Zone Effects
Some spells or abilities might have an effect which triggers when a creature is leaving a zone. Note that there currently are no “Leaving Zone” effects in the game, but future ones will be added.
3. Walls
The creature encounters any intervening walls (unless it is Teleporting, in which case it ignores walls).
If a creature has been Pushed into a wall with the Passage Blocks trait, it becomes Bashed and receives a Bash Attack now. If the creature is moving through a wall with the Passage Attacks trait, it conducts that attack at this time.
4. Move to New Zone
The creature must be moved into the new zone. It is possible that a wall attack might Restrain or Incapacitate a creature, in which case it will not be able to complete its move action, and will not be able to move into the new zone. See “Walls” below.
5. Entering Zone Triggers
Any spells, abilities, or effects which trigger for a creature entering a zone occur at this time. Examples include a trap or Mangler Caltrops spell. You do not get a chance to reveal enchantments after each of the 4 events above, like you do with the attack and casting sequences. (However, if there is a wall attack, you can reveal enchantments after each Step of the attack as normal. See “Walls” below.) If a creature becomes unable to move during the move action, it stops the move sequence at that point, and the rest of the move action is canceled. For example, a creature could become Restrained from a “Leaving Zone Effect”. If this happens, the rest of the move action is canceled, and it will not encounter any walls, nor actually be moved into the new zone.
The zone change happens in step 4. The Armor is not a caused by a trigger, it's a conditional trait. If, at any time, the creature satisfies the condition ("in this zone") it has the Armor +2 trait.
Now, the truth is that I'm not completely sure that this is how it works, but I'm very sure we don't want to start resolving conditional traits as actions, because it'll break other stuff. Conditional traits can't happen, they just have to be a consequence of something else that happens.
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Or, depending on how the code is written, calculate the new modifier for the creature's position, then overwrite the old with the new.
True...
The zone change happens in step 4. The Armor is not a caused by a trigger, it's a conditional trait. If, at any time, the creature satisfies the condition ("in this zone") it has the Armor +2 trait.
Now, the truth is that I'm not completely sure that this is how it works, but I'm very sure we don't want to start resolving conditional traits as actions, because it'll break other stuff. Conditional traits can't happen, they just have to be a consequence of something else that happens.
I am not disagreeing with anything you said here, and it satisfies any logic conditions (replacing one with the other) that I might bump into. Thematically it is easy to envision the sparkling effect covering both zones.....
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Move Action
When a creature moves from one zone to another, there is a specific sequence of events which must be followed. A creature might move to a new zone by taking a move action, or it might be Pushed or Teleported. Regardless as to how it moves to the new zone, it follows the move sequence below, although some parts or steps might be irrelevant. For example, a Teleport bypasses Walls and ignores Step 3 below.
1. Declare Move
Choose which zone the creature will move to. Check to see if the move is possible (for example, make sure no wall will block the move), and make sure the creature has an available action and is not Restrained, Rooted or Incapacitated. If you discover you made a mistake and the creature cannot be moved (for example, the wall is “Passage Blocks”, not “Passage Attacks”), you can cancel the move action and choose a different action instead. Then, pay any costs associated with the move (taking damage, or paying Suppression Orb's mana cost, etc.). At this time the move is committed to. If you cannot pay all of the costs, the move is cancelled, and you have lost the action.
2. Leaving Zone Effects
Some spells or abilities might have an effect which triggers when a creature is leaving a zone. Note that there currently are no “Leaving Zone” effects in the game, but future ones will be added.
3. Walls
The creature encounters any intervening walls (unless it is Teleporting, in which case it ignores walls).
If a creature has been Pushed into a wall with the Passage Blocks trait, it becomes Bashed and receives a Bash Attack now. If the creature is moving through a wall with the Passage Attacks trait, it conducts that attack at this time.
4. Move to New Zone
The creature must be moved into the new zone. It is possible that a wall attack might Restrain or Incapacitate a creature, in which case it will not be able to complete its move action, and will not be able to move into the new zone. See “Walls” below.
5. Entering Zone Triggers
Any spells, abilities, or effects which trigger for a creature entering a zone occur at this time. Examples include a trap or Mangler Caltrops spell. You do not get a chance to reveal enchantments after each of the 4 events above, like you do with the attack and casting sequences. (However, if there is a wall attack, you can reveal enchantments after each Step of the attack as normal. See “Walls” below.) If a creature becomes unable to move during the move action, it stops the move sequence at that point, and the rest of the move action is canceled. For example, a creature could become Restrained from a “Leaving Zone Effect”. If this happens, the rest of the move action is canceled, and it will not encounter any walls, nor actually be moved into the new zone.
I would rule by the way the passage is worded that there is no gap between on effect falls off and the next one applies
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The way it is worded is you can't reveal enchantment during movement, unless the wall make an attack. Now I wonder, could you reveal a Fortified Position n the starting movement zone to gain armor?
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Not losing the Corrode(s) going directly from one location with Armor +x to another makes sense in terms of the previous ruling on the effect of being pushed through a wall from a zone where there is Armor +... the additional armor is retained even when receiving the passage attacks of walls.
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Not losing the Corrode(s) going directly from one location with Armor +x to another makes sense in terms of the previous ruling on the effect of being pushed through a wall from a zone where there is Armor +... the additional armor is retained even when receiving the passage attacks of walls.
The passage attack occurs before moving into the next zone.
I feel the ruling about switching armor would apply here as well. The is a game state when the previous zone effects are remove then the new zone effects are applied.
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Not losing the Corrode(s) going directly from one location with Armor +x to another makes sense in terms of the previous ruling on the effect of being pushed through a wall from a zone where there is Armor +... the additional armor is retained even when receiving the passage attacks of walls.
The passage attack occurs before moving into the next zone.
I feel the ruling about switching armor would apply here as well. The is a game state when the previous zone effects are remove then the new zone effects are applied.
Correct
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What are you confirming here?
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The timing of the passage attacks, I'm sure. I forgot the reasoning behind not losing the armor.
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The timing of the passage attacks, I'm sure. I forgot the reasoning behind not losing the armor.
Yes the passage attack happens before you leave the zone so the armor would still apply.
The game does not currently allow for effect to check while a creature is on a zone border because creatures can never be on a border.
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Ok, yes. The passage attack happens before you're in the new zone. I was worried that you were saying that you lose the Armor +2 bonus while you're still in the zone.
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Talked it over with a few people on the rules team and we may have a timing gap That allows the armor to drop but we need to review the exact wording on swapping equipment. I will let you know the final answer
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Alarming.
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Back around to my earlier state question.... :(
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Alarming.
logically we have no gap but one may have been opened up when the armor swap ruling was made :(
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I don't see any reason the equipment rule has to behave the same way as the zone rule.
The equipment rule seems like it exists because you need to be able to cast a new weapon to replace an old one and send it back to your spellbook. But because you can't do two things at once, the old armor has to go back to the spellbook before the new one can attach (because new can't come before old is removed). That's two separate things that happen: old is removed, then new is attached.
Movement isn't like that., You don't leave your zone then enter a new one, you just move. Leaving an old zone and entering a new one are consequences of that movement, but they're not separate actions.
If there's ever a time where a creature has left it's old zone but not yet entered its new one, I can break the game. Email me to ask how if it's not apparent.
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I don't see any reason the equipment rule has to behave the same way as the zone rule.
The equipment rule seems like it exists because you need to be able to cast a new weapon to replace an old one and send it back to your spellbook. But because you can't do two things at once, the old armor has to go back to the spellbook before the new one can attach (because new can't come before old is removed). That's two separate things that happen: old is removed, then new is attached.
Movement isn't like that., You don't leave your zone then enter a new one, you just move. Leaving an old zone and entering a new one are consequences of that movement, but they're not separate actions.
If there's ever a time where a creature has left it's old zone but not yet entered its new one, I can break the game. Email me to ask how if it's not apparent.
Laddin and I talked it over now we just need a final answer from Bryan
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I don't see any reason the equipment rule has to behave the same way as the zone rule.
The equipment rule seems like it exists because you need to be able to cast a new weapon to replace an old one and send it back to your spellbook. But because you can't do two things at once, the old armor has to go back to the spellbook before the new one can attach (because new can't come before old is removed). That's two separate things that happen: old is removed, then new is attached.
Movement isn't like that., You don't leave your zone then enter a new one, you just move. Leaving an old zone and entering a new one are consequences of that movement, but they're not separate actions.
If there's ever a time where a creature has left it's old zone but not yet entered its new one, I can break the game. Email me to ask how if it's not apparent.
Ok but how do you remove the old one? By casting the new one first. So the new one is already waiting in the line, no waiting/gap in time here neither.
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Yes there is a gap time with changing equipment, because that's what allows the Corrode markers to fall off.
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Yes there is a gap time with changing equipment, because that's what allows the Corrode markers to fall off.
You say: There is a gap because Corrode drop off.
Will it is: Corrode drop off because here is a gap.
The question now is: Should there be a gap? And if yes, why there is one for casting equipment while there is none for movement.
This is what Shadow talked about with Laddin. Will there be officially a gap or not.
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I would rule that Fortified Position covers the entire zone including the Zone Border, since creatures can never be in a Zone Border they are either in Zone A or Zone B. There is no gap as result, you can just say: "It's a kinda of magic."
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Here is the ruling. There is no time when passing between those two zones where you would not be in a zone with Fortified Position.
The difference between this and switching armor is that logically you can't have two pieces of the same equipment on at the same time. Like I can't wear two shirts.
On this, all creatures are in a zone. There is never a point where a creature isn't in a zone. So yes, it's simmilar, but it does not apply to this action, because you're always in one zone or the other.
As opposed to the previous ruling where you have to take off some equipment to put new ones on.
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Well... technically, wearing 2 shirts is very doable ;)
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Here is the ruling. There is no time when passing between those two zones where you would not be in a zone with Fortified Position.
The difference between this and switching armor is that logically you can't have two pieces of the same equipment on at the same time. Like I can't wear two shirts.
On this, all creatures are in a zone. There is never a point where a creature isn't in a zone. So yes, it's simmilar, but it does not apply to this action, because you're always in one zone or the other.
As opposed to the previous ruling where you have to take off some equipment to put new ones on.
TY that is what I wanted to double check. 8)
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Outstanding! Thank you.
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Apologies for necro-posting, but I have basically the same question with regards to Teleporting. If I'm in a zone with Fortified Position and enough Corrodes to make my net armor = 0, and I Teleport to/from that zone (e.g. Teleport but don't go anywhere), do I lose 2 Corrode tokens?
My gut feeling is "yes" based on the ruling for teleporting out of an attached conjuration (e.g. Tanglevine) when teleporting to/from the same zone... but it really comes down to whether or not you are in a different (undefined) zone between teleporting out and teleporting back in to the same zone.
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Apologies for necro-posting, but I have basically the same question with regards to Teleporting. If I'm in a zone with Fortified Position and enough Corrodes to make my net armor = 0, and I Teleport to/from that zone (e.g. Teleport but don't go anywhere), do I lose 2 Corrode tokens?
My gut feeling is "yes" based on the ruling for teleporting out of an attached conjuration (e.g. Tanglevine) when teleporting to/from the same zone... but it really comes down to whether or not you are in a different (undefined) zone between teleporting out and teleporting back in to the same zone.
Here is the ruling. There is no time when passing between those two zones where you would not be in a zone with Fortified Position.
The difference between this and switching armor is that logically you can't have two pieces of the same equipment on at the same time. Like I can't wear two shirts.
On this, all creatures are in a zone. There is never a point where a creature isn't in a zone. So yes, it's simmilar, but it does not apply to this action, because you're always in one zone or the other.
As opposed to the previous ruling where you have to take off some equipment to put new ones on.
When you teleport from one zone to the same zone, you never leave the zone. Since it never leaves the zone the armor value never changes so you can not teleport to remove corrode tokens with fortified position.
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Apologies for necro-posting, but I have basically the same question with regards to Teleporting. If I'm in a zone with Fortified Position and enough Corrodes to make my net armor = 0, and I Teleport to/from that zone (e.g. Teleport but don't go anywhere), do I lose 2 Corrode tokens?
My gut feeling is "yes" based on the ruling for teleporting out of an attached conjuration (e.g. Tanglevine) when teleporting to/from the same zone... but it really comes down to whether or not you are in a different (undefined) zone between teleporting out and teleporting back in to the same zone.
Here is the ruling. There is no time when passing between those two zones where you would not be in a zone with Fortified Position.
The difference between this and switching armor is that logically you can't have two pieces of the same equipment on at the same time. Like I can't wear two shirts.
On this, all creatures are in a zone. There is never a point where a creature isn't in a zone. So yes, it's simmilar, but it does not apply to this action, because you're always in one zone or the other.
As opposed to the previous ruling where you have to take off some equipment to put new ones on.
When you teleport from one zone to the same zone, you never leave the zone. Since it never leaves the zone the armor value never changes so you can not teleport to remove corrode tokens with fortified position.
Thanks. I saw that post but thought it might only refer to movement, since another exception (Banish) was already mentioned.
Makes me think the game could use a level 1 "Blink" ability that temporarily removes a creature from the arena before returning it to the zone it started in - perhaps an Enchantment that "banishes" a creature upon reveal, then brings it back at the end of the round; could be used on a friendly creature to dodge an attack (along with dropping Corrode markers as for this topic), or on an enemy to prevent an attack. But I guess that would make [mwcard=MW1J22]Tanglevine[/mwcard], [mwcard=DNJ10]Stranglevine[/mwcard] and [mwcard=FWJ07]Quicksand[/mwcard] even worse than they already are. Perhaps Astral Anchor, and presumably other "anchor" effects, will make attached conjurations that grant "unmovable" a little more useful.
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Because of a few fairly subtle interactions, a blink enchantment would be a *very* high powered spell.
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Because of a few fairly subtle interactions, a blink enchantment would be a *very* high powered spell.
Oh, yes, the "instant-speed" Enchantment would be too good. I was thinking of a more versatile Block/Nullify, but I can see how it would have consequences similar to Divine Intervention = could counter any spell by making the target illegal.
But a "Blink" Incantation would more-or-less be a Teleport restricted to 0 zones, which is why I was thinking level 1. Yet it could also clear Corrode tokens in a zone with Fortified Position, etc.