Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: DallasSooner87 on May 24, 2013, 04:40:53 PM
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So, my gf and I were playing last night, and we had a question about Mind Control. We felt "Between Action Phases," could potentially be interpreted 3 ways.
Does this mean:
A) Between the Mind Controlled creature's action phase?
B) Between any in play creature's Action Phase.?
C) During the Planning Stage which happens between Action Stages?
Thanks.
Boomer Sooner
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We have a circular logic problem :)
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We have a circular logic problem :)
Is there another interpretation I am missing? The more I think about it the more cross eyed I get. Maybe I am just over thinking the card.
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This was actually already answered in the previous thread. The reason Mind Control says that it can only be revealed between Action Phases is to limit it so that, unlike other enchantments, it cannot be revealed in the middle of a creatures Action Phase. So the answer to your question is B.
As Arcanus Stated: "Mind control cannot be revealed during an Action Phase of a creature. We had to do this because it can create a weird anomaly when control changes hands while acting."
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This was actually already answered in the previous thread. The reason Mind Control says that it can only be revealed between Action Phases is to limit it so that, unlike other enchantments, it cannot be revealed in the middle of a creatures Action Phase. So the answer to your question is B.
As Arcanus Stated: "Mind control cannot be revealed during an Action Phase of a creature. We had to do this because it can create a weird anomaly when control changes hands while acting."
Thanks Wiz-Pig. I was just misinterpreting what he was saying in the other thread, then.
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And a Pair of stickers for the swine mage. :P
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And a Pair of stickers for the swine mage. :P
Thanks for the excellent forum moderation and giving me a new goal. Earn Banana Sticker.
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i want to clarify one thing in that statement:
B) Between any in play creature's Action Phase.?
is it possible to reveal Mind Control, before first Action Phase (it is said between, so for me it means after at least one creature make it's action) in Action Stage?
Example:
some mage has initiative, do or not do his QuickCast, then Forcemaster is doing his QC where he put unrevealed Mind Control on opponents creature. End of QC Phase, Action Stage begins, and opponent has a move. Can Forcemaster reveal now MC or have to wait with that until there will be gap between Action Phases?
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I've always interpreted "between" to mean "before or after". Thus, you would be able to reveal it before the first creature's action phase. You just can not reveal it during their action. Once that marker is flipped, you have to wait until they are completely finished doing what they want to do.
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Agree with Zuberi. I have also interpreted it to mean that Mind Control can be revealed during the Ready Stage too, for example right after the Upkeep Phase.
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Yeah, actually rethinking it, I think I chose my wording poorly because I agree it can be revealed during the ready stage. Thus a better way to say it methinks would be that "between means NOT during." Any time is fine as long as it is not during an action.
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We always played it that it has to happen before the Action marker is flipped for a Creature or Mage during the action phase and anytime in the Ready Stage.
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I think this again demonstrates just how urgently we need a proper constantly updated Living FAQ!
Firstly, the Arcanus ruling (in the "Mind Control" rules thread) was simply:
Mind control cannot be revealed during an Action Phase of a creature. We had to do this because it can create a weird anomaly when control changes hands while acting.
Sometime later, I made this statement...
BETWEEN ACTIONS
What constitutes "between actions" (e.g. Charm, Mind Control).
I have interpreted it to mean "not during an action's steps" rather than the literal between 2 actions in the same turn.
So, in the Lord of Fire example above, if Player B had a hidden Charm on him, could he simply reveal the Charm when Lord of Fire is activated (before taking any actions), even though this will be the first action of the round?
My interpretation at the time was based on the following logic. In my Rulebook (version 2 though it doesn't say so, add version control), on page 19 sidebar "When can you reveal an Enchantment?", there are 5 bullet points detailing when you can reveal a normal enchantment. My interpretation at the time was that Mind Control could be revealed during the first 2 instances only:
(1) at the end of any Phase
(2) when a creature is activated, before it chooses its action
The other 3 instances when enchantments can be revealed are all explicitly during a creature's Action Phase. In that thread, Shad0w and Kharhaz posted after me and did not refute my statement (but they shied away from the topic entirely so no endorsement either).
However, I have now changed my position. Here are 2 examples why.
Example 1: Opponent has Initiative and I have 10 mana in my Forcemaster's mana pool (so not telegraphed). In my last delayed action (opponent has 1 action after me if he has overlap, probable as I am the Forcemaster), my mage moves 1 to be adjacent to Beastmaster's buffed Grizzly and casts Mordok's Obelisk (paying 8 ) in an eligible safe adjacent zone. In the Final Quickcast phase, as the last spell possible, I cast Mind Control (paying 2) on the Grizzly who is within range 1. Next round, I Channel 10 and at the end of the Reset phase, I reveal Mind Control (paying 8 ) so the Grizzly has a Stun marker and choosing the order of upkeep effects, I don't pay its Obelisk upkeep and it is destroyed before I have to pay Mind Control upkeep.
Example 2: Opponent has Initiative and I have Wand of Healing (cost 2), crucial for Forcemaster removing conditions on her. In the Final Quickcast phase, as the last spell possible, I cast Mind Control (paying 2) on a buffed Grizzly who is within range 1 of me and in the same zone as the Beastmaster. Next round, I have Initiative. At end of Deployment Phase, I reveal Mind Control (paying 8 ) so the Grizzly has a Stun marker on him. As the first action of this round, I activate the Grizzly but before its action phase, I Quickcast Cleansing Light from my Wand of Healing to remove the Stun (paying 4). I then full action attack the Beastmaster with my Bear Strength Grizzly for 9 dice piercing 1.
In both examples, the opponent has no defence (not even a psychic "I picked Dispel" or I have Dispel on a Mage Wand). I hence contend Mind Control's restrictions (between action phases while within 1 and Stunned when control changes) were designed to prevent this.
On all game rulings, I now believe in this Meta Rule:
In the absence of a ruling in a FAQ (or a Rules thread here), you follow the card Read As Written (RAW) and not Read As Intended (RAI) as the latter method is entirely subjective.
Here are examples where verbatim interpretations must be used:
* The Druid may place Vine Markers in zones not in LOS (not cited) but targeting with vines spells requires LOS from casting source.
* Teleport Trap and Enchantment Transfusion do not require LOS because the effect does not cite it.
* You may reveal Enchantment Transfusion when Seeking Dispel is cast on another enchantment on that creature (to move the target frozen-hidden enchantment to the same attached location so as to counter the Seeking Dispel as per the FAQ ruling page 3).
Following the Rulebook's sidebar which lists all opportunities for revealing, I believe only the second opportunity listed applies (when a creature is activated, before it chooses its actions) as it must apply to at least 1 of them. Also, as cards can impose superseding rules, Mind Control (and Charm) must be revealed "between Actions". So my answer now is:
Mind Control can only be revealed when a creature is activated, before it chooses actions, but not on the first activation of a round.
Please highlight any random prior thread where this literal interpretation has been contradicted.
Please please please Arcane Wonders, can we have some clarity on the huge growing list of card wordings and interactions and rules ambiguities (such as all those points in my "House Rules and some clarifications" thread of sometime ago)? It does not look good to have customers making up their own interpretations because enquiries on this Rules section are left unanswered. A large proportion of games players are sticklers for rules (not me, I'm happy to House Rule) and this hurts your appeal to them. I can't remember how many times I've confidently asserted "it's in the FAQ that this is how the card works", totally fibbing to win them over to the game because I know that newbie player would not be impressed by rules with all these grey areas.
A Living FAQ, constantly updated with a version reference. Please? You are harming the product without it.
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You contradict yourself at one point, DeckBuilder. First, you say that Mind Control should follow the second bulletpoint on the side bar of page 19 in the Rulebook: "Immediately after a creature is activated, before it chooses its actions for the turn." Then you state that it could not be revealed when the very first creature is activated for the round. I fail to see how that would not be "between" action phases when it is at every other time. It is after the last action phase from last round, and before the first action phase of this round. That = Between.
I would argue that RAW points more towards the first bulletpoint than the second. The text on Mind Control does not say "between actions" rather it says "between action phases." Charm is the same. Thus, I believe the first and fifth bulletpoints are the only ones which would apply. The fifth one reads "immediately after it is cast, right after the Resolve Spell Step." Once that action marker is flipped, the action phase has begun and that is when you are unable to reveal the enchantment.
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I don't think I am contradicting myself.
Here is my logic why the Ready Stage is not between Action Phases.
1. A Game is played in Rounds
2. Each Round has 2 different Stages, a Ready Stage then an Action Stage.
3. During the Action Stage, there are at least 2 Action Phases.
This is the time when Mind Control can be revealed, "between Action Phases".
Then the Action Stage is over.
There is no rollover into the next Round because we have an intervening Ready Stage.
Game > Round > Stage > Phase (if we were to create a tree priority)
That is how the game is designed.
So once Action Stage is over, that's it: Action Phases are over and we change both Round and Stage.
This is where we differ.
You may well be right and my logic may be flawed.
On your other point:
The fifth reveal bullet point (reveal when casting Mind Control) cannot be true because you are in the midst of a friendly action phase.
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We do disagree on the Ready Stage coming between two Action Phases then. I see time as Linear. I've never witnessed it stopping or starting. Therefore anything that happens lies between what came before it and what comes after it. An action phase came before the Ready Stage, and an action phase will come after it. Therefore, it lies between the two. The only way to disagree with that, is to stop counting the passing of time at the end of each Action Stage and to start a new time continuum with the beginning of every Ready Stage. I've read no rule in the game design that says it stops time, therefore I'm assuming it doesn't.
Meanwhile, the fifth bullet point does not reference revealing it "when" casting. It specifically states "after" casting, "after" the Resolve Spell Step. You are already completely finished with your action and can not perform any other action with that action phase.
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I always thought this was to avoid it getting revealed Just before upkeep with mordoks obelisk killing a creature straight away.
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As Arcanus put it, the reason for the ruling was "because it can create a weird anomaly when control changes hands while acting" and not because it allows for powerful combos. Revealing it right before upkeep and using Mordok's obelisk to kill the creature is a powerful combo. Revealing it and immediately cleansing Stun off of the creature is another powerful combo. I hate it when these combos are used against me, but I see no reason why they wouldn't be allowed by the rules.
To simplify things, just look at the Action Markers. When ever someone flips an Action Marker, they have entered an Action Phase and the enchantment can not be revealed until they have finished. Any other time is free game.
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I don't get the angst here. My mage flips his action markers and casts a spell. It resolves. At this point there are no active creatures. You can reveal mind control. You flip the action marker on your Bat, you can not reveal mind control. The bat attacks, the attack is resolved. No creatures are active, you may reveal mind control. My mage casts his quick action on a Angel. The spell resolves and I go to active my Angel, you may reveal MC now as long as I haven't flipped my action marker.
What am I missing? RAW = between actions means no creatures are active.
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Do you not see abuse in revealing during the ready stage?
My restrictive revised approach seems to be unpopular and my original view seems favoured.
Can somebody officially rule on this please?
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Do you not see abuse in revealing during the ready stage?
My restrictive revised approach seems to be unpopular and my original view seems favoured.
Can somebody officially rule on this please?
I do see the abuses you mentioned and they are quite powerful. Unfortunately the RAW do not say "during the Action Stage in between Action Phases", just "in between Action Phases". The designers have stated that the restriction was to prevent weird rules situations, not to prevent strong combos, so revealing during Ready Stage appears to be in line with RAI as well.
It is a level 6 spell, don't forget. In my mind that means it's okay if it's absurdly powerful in some situations. There are only three (four with Togorah?) level 6 spells in the game after all.
Having said that I would be interested to see an official ruling as well.
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Do you not see abuse in revealing during the ready stage?
I believe the term abuse is subjective in this discussion. If you want to argue the card is too powerful and should be nerfed, that is a different discussion for a different thread I think. We are looking purely at the rules.
My restrictive revised approach seems to be unpopular and my original view seems favoured.
Not quite. Your original view allowed them to reveal after the action marker was flipped but before they had taken any actions. Even if they had not taken any actions yet, once that marker is flipped they have entered an action phase. Thus, you would not be able to reveal Mind Control or Charm.
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All valid points, gentlemen, if slightly off topic (mea culpa for opening those doors).
The crux of this matter is simply this: "Between Action Phases" - what does it mean?
(a) "Anytime except during Action Phases" = Phases are consecutive irrespective of Stage or Round
(b) "Between Action Phases in each Action Stage" = Phases are grouped into 2 Stages which are grouped into Rounds
In both cases, the only reveal opportunity detailed that applies is the first bullet point: "at the end of any Phase of the game round".
In both cases, it begs the question: why not just write that instead?
I respect your view but there is only one way to resolve this: can somebody in Arcane Wonders clarify this please?
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Do you not see abuse in revealing during the ready stage?
My restrictive revised approach seems to be unpopular and my original view seems favoured.
Can somebody officially rule on this please?
Honestly, I do not. 2 Senerio's:
1st - MC is unrevealed on my Angel. I have a 4 additional creatures including my mage. My mage uses his quick cast and binds another unrevealed Enchantment (Cheetah Speed). I go to activate my angel, the opposing mages player says hold and then reveals MC on my angel who is now stunned. Instead of activating my Angel, I now decide to activate my mage as he still has his action this round. I had planned to Dispel the Agony off of myself so now decide to use that Dispel to rid my Angel of the MC, who is hit with the removal stun. My next action I activate my Angel and at the end of his action phase I remove the stun markers. The op mage is now crying about all of the mana and actions he wasted to disable my angel one round.
2nd - MC is unrevealed on my Angel. I have a 4 additional creatures including my mage. My mage uses his quick cast and binds another unrevealed Enchantment (Cheetah Speed). The opposing mage decides to do nothing with the MC at this point. My mage activates and casts Dispel to rid myself of the Agony. At the end of the Action Phase we move into the Final Quick Cast Phase (at this point no creatures are Active). The opposing mage casts Obelisk. Now technically in game we are still in the Action phase we are going to fork the thought process here:
- The opposing mage reveals the MC and stuns my Angel and decides not to pay the upkeep and the Angel dies.
- The Initiative marker moves from one player to the next. The opposing mage reveals the MC and stuns my Angel and decides not to pay the upkeep and the Angel dies.
The result is the same in either phase, so where is the need for clarification?
IMO - And yes the period after the last creature activation of the round and the first activation of a creature in the next round counts as between action phases.
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Hi sIKE
Thanks for the response. It's late over here and I'm in no fit state to analyse the response. However I notice the scenarios all have Dispel in your hand to combat it. So sorry to not discuss your 2 scenarios but I do know my 2 examples.
In my example 1, there is no defence. And having an Obelisk out afterwards as creature-light Forcemaster is an added boon.
In my example 2, I later realised there is a 50/50 defence. Opponent seeing the hidden enchantment has to guess on Dispel or Seeking Dispel. If he chooses Dispel (probable as more common) and I reveal at the end of the First Quickcast Phase or if he chooses Seeking Dispel and I reveal at the end of Deployment, unlucky. Of course he could choose both. Or he could dismiss it as just another Decoy...
When you treat Mind Control as playable only "Between Action Phases in the Action Stage", the card is still very powerful but at least there is a defence in example 1 (which you and I, sIKE, have discussed already, citing examples that avoided revealing in the Ready Stage).
Now I am obviously not the only one to find the wording ambiguous.
We get instant answers from official sources to blatantly obvious rules questions. But the harder questions that could create a precedent that they then have to contradict (like with Battle Fury's flip-flop) are met with silence.
I would like to play Forcemaster in my Mage Wars games day this Saturday. I would like some clarity on this. I know you are a Playtester, sIKE. Are you authorised to rule on Mind Control being "Anytime except during an Action Phase"? Because I need some hard proof on my phone browser when I pull off a stunt without any defence that changes the game. Because the card doesn't say that, it's ambiguous.
Yet you say there is no need for a clarification? It's a devastating manoeuvre without a defence if you can reveal during the Ready Stage! How can I prove it's game legal?
So unless somebody with a Blue Arcane Wonders sign-on finally makes an explicit ruling on this long-standing baby elephant in a very crowded room of elephants, I will probably end up playing some other mage. Because I can't be bothered to argue the toss over when I can reveal this spell because of its ambiguous wording.
So please someone out there with rules authority, take pity and please make an explicit Reveal Mind Control ruling here?
(And while you are at it, there are quite a few other bigger elephant rules queries gestating that were ducked in other threads)
Many thanks, everyone, for setting me right on this. I just wish that my opponents would see it so clear cut...
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so where is the need for clarification?
The main reason for the need of clarification would be issues like: Can I wait to reveal the enchantment after the Channeling Phase? Thereby using the mana from next round to pay for the enchant, yet immediately destroying the creature by not paying upkeep.
How can I prove it's game legal?
I would argue that without a rule stating the contrary, the more general assumption (a) is the correct one, because the phases DO occur consecutively in time. The only way to argue against it is to have the rules of the game override our default understanding of the flow of time. Which would be fine...except they currently don't. I understand that in some games they do though, so that might influence which of the two assumptions you lean towards when determining a default position.
An official word would be nice though.
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@Deckbuilder,
I am in no way an official speaker or rules maker/arbiter for Arcane Wonders. So everything that follows is IMHO....
1st Example - Totally legit
2nd Example - Have a couple of quibbles
At end of Deployment Phase, I reveal Mind Control (paying 8 ) so the Grizzly has a Stun marker on him. As the first action of this round, I activate the Grizzly but before its action phase, I Quickcast Cleansing Light from my Wand of Healing to remove the Stun (paying 4). I then full action attack the Beastmaster with my Bear Strength Grizzly for 9 dice piercing 1.
You can not do this. Once you activate your creature you can no longer QC with your mage. I know I am splitting hairs here. But we are talking explicitly about timing here. You may QC a spell before you activate your creature. So yes you could use your Wand of Healing to remove the stun marker as you state here but it would have to be when there are no active creatures. Then you would then activate the Bear a proceed as described.
The 2nd example is a classic example of action stacking. You "could" also activate your Temple of Light and attack the opposing mage, then (if a Wizard) cast an attack spell from the Wizard Tower and if you have two load tokens (and are playing Promo's) on the Ballista you could then shoot the mage with a bolt. Then activate the Bear using its Full Attack, yes there is very very very few options for the opposing mage to interrupt the sequence of events described. Honestly there is almost nothing he could do (other than reveal hidden enchantments like Divine Intervention on the Bear) (if we are after the First Quick Cast Phase).
In example two, you say that during the first quick cast phase the opposing mage may cast a Seeking Dispel to rid the Bear of the hidden enchantment. See my answer to example 1.
Zuberi,
Once again (IMHO) the period of time after the last creature is activated in the current round and the first creature in the next round is between Creature Action phases.
You control this creature. Mind Control can only be revealed between Action Phases, and the controller must be within 1 zone of Mind Control. When Mind Control is revealed or removed, place a Stun condition on this creature. X = Target creature's Level. Mind Control cannot be moved to a new target.
Reading the card and the v2 manual I can see where some might define between (Creature) Action Phases as only during the Action Stage of the round. I can appreciate the thought and would say:
Shadow your thoughts?
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The Game Round
1. The Ready Stage
- Initiative
- Reset
- Channel
- Upkeep
- Planning
- Deployment
2. The Action Stage
- First Quickcast Phase
- Creature Action Phases
- Final Quickcast Phase
for how i understand Mind Control it can be revealed only in The Action Stage in Creatures Action Phases (i think it would be written in different way when it would be possible in The Ready Stage), but i only wonder if it can be revealed before any creature take it's action (at the very beginning of Creature Action Phases.
If it would be possible in that kind of situations it was written: "before or after any friendly creature's Action Phase". In that case "friendly" could be removed. but instead of that there is between Action Phases, which i would interpret as at least one Action Phase need to be done, what is actually a bit weird...
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It does seem that we have hit an impasse, whereby the question "Does the ready stage lie between action phases?" is the most relevant piece of information we are missing. It seems obvious to me that it does, but it is equally obvious that others disagree. It is not currently addressed in the rules. Therefore we need an official word.
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Ok, I just got off the phone with Bryan, and am now late to my birthday trip to Ivanhoes, but I wanted to make sure everyone had an answer the moment I knew it.
Mind Control can be revealed at any time, so long as it is not during a creature action phase. Hopefully this is clear enough for everyone. Bryan is finishing up the new FAQ soon, and I'm going to make sure this is in there. Bryan told me we should have the FAQ sometime this week. Thank you all for your patience.
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Ok, I just got off the phone with Bryan, and am now late to my birthday trip to Ivanhoes, but I wanted to make sure everyone had an answer the moment I knew it.
Just make sure you get there next year, one phone call early, and it will all even out
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Thank you Laddinfance. We certainly appreciate it. Hope you have a good birthday.
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It was delicious. My birthday was yesterday, but today was lunch at Ivanhoes. Had a cracker jack sundae... omg it's amazing. It's vanilla ice cream, Spanish peanuts, heath bars, all covered in caramel. I'm about to hit food coma.
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Many thanks, Laddinfance, for taking time to resolve this. Much appreciated. Great news about the impending FAQ.
You were right, Zuberi and sIKE. Time to re-evaluate the tricksiness of the Forcemaster. And the value of Psychic Immunity.
I have a related question that someone may be able to answer....
"Spell Traits That Affect Your Spellbook" (p36) state "Mage Class Only" or "School of Magic Only" traits only affect inclusion in a spell book, not control.
Hence a Wizard may Steal a Warlock's Death Link and move it to his Bloodreaper.
A Forcemaster may Steal a Warlord's Helm of Command if he has no head slot item.
A Forcemaster may Mind Control a Beastmaster's Felella or a Wizard's Huginn.
What about a spell bound to the newly controlled target? I assume it is hijacked by the controller, just like the buffs on a Mind Controlled Grizzly. But just like those buffs, you don't control the spell bound. If changed, it returns to its owner's spell book as the controller of that spell is the owner. This approach would mean that if you take control of Felella who has Nullify prepared, that Nullify if cast would still be controlled by the opponent. The same would apply to taking control of a Goblin Builder with Akiro's Hammer prepared. But taking control of a Thoughtspore or Huginn with Teleport prepared would allow you to cast that Teleport with you choosing target and destination because Teleport isn't an object.
Was the above approach the right one to take? (The Huginn example actually did happen in a game today.)
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The answers to your question are in the FAQ. First off, your base assumption is incorrect. On page 7 under Restricted Spells, we see that spell restrictions actually refer to two things. Placing it in your spellbook is one of them. Controlling or using the spell during the course of the game is another. Thus you can not take control of Huginn with the Forcemaster.
On the other hand, if you do take control of an object with a spell bound to it, page 12 under Spellbind tells us that you steal the attached spell as well. You may look at it and cast it as long as it is not restricted to you and you continue to control it. If the spell is destroyed or replaced, it is then returned to its owner (their discard pile or spellbook as appropriate).
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Thanks. I gotta learn the FAQ. Or at least print it out.