Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spellbook Design and Construction => Topic started by: echephron on October 29, 2015, 11:14:15 AM
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I'm working on a mage who will build up a lethal stranglevine. Though I could see a forcemaster trying to do that, I will be making a druid.
Problems:
Where/When is the strangle:
Do I trap them in turn2 on their side, teleport trap them to my side, or wait for them to come to me?
Teleporting away:
Use of astral anchor, nullify, and jinx will keep them using teleportation, but may require 2 quick actions per turn to maintain. It could also eat up to 10 mana per turn. Further problems: they have a familiar, divine intervention, or nullify/jinx me back.
Creatures meleeing the vine:
guarding vinesnappers / quicksand / nightshade / togorah / get creatures stuck outside of zone somehow
Mage meleeing the vine:
surging wave, agony, dissolve/orchid the firelash.
ranged attacks:
they cannot target the vine, but a ring of fire or similar could damage it. minor concern.
Mana problems:
once the stranglevine is taking 5+ mana per turn, its impossible to keep up the teleport prevention.
The only ways to heal stranglevine:
tataree, lifetree(one +2), [mwcard=DNQ06] Mohktari's Branch[/mwcard](only versus burn or poison melee or zone attacks), [mwcard=DNI04] Renewing Rain[/mwcard], [mwcard=FWC04] Goblin Builder[/mwcard](which is a bit too cheesy of an option for me)
Big decisions:
Each tree:
lifetree keeps things alive
mohtari is similiar, but better for fellella and druid but ineffective on stranglevine
vinetree will get out the vinesnappers to guard and the tanglevines to bait teleports
samara+tataree is the most economical/defensive play but half of the seedling pods will have to pop outside of the anchorzone which is a problem. the ones out of zone can be lifetree, togorah, [mwcard=DNC10] Raptor Vine[/mwcard], thornlashers to pull enemy creatures out of the zone, or a wall of thorns to [mwcard=FWI04] Force Wave[/mwcard] all the non-rooted creatures through.
Use which action generators? fellella, vinetree, seedling pods
Use which mana generators/how much time spent on economy?
If using fellella+vinetree use a meditation amulet?
Try to bait out 2+ teleports before going for a lethal stranglevine? baits would mostly use tanglevine, stranglevine copies, or stuck conditions. If they have less than 2 teleports, a facedown astral anchor is all you need for teleport control.
I've looked at a rush strategy, and it seems fairly likely to fail. Further, once it does fail I will be way behind. I keep gravitating fellella and alll defense/economy until I get out a turn4 togorah to protect my tree. then the anchored zone would be under my tree. sometimes I think about added a spawnpoint tree and maybe meditation amulet
So that's it right now.
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I think baiting teleport(s) might be the best idea.
Vine Tree seems obvious for easy tanglevine/stranglevine.
You might add a twist and try to get 1 or more bleed token(s) in, then use deathlock and then tanglevine/stranglevine everything.
Besides from Bloodspine Walls and Thornlasher, you could get bleed(s) from Burst of Thorns, Dire Wolf(s) and Hunters Bow.
Etherian Life Tree is probably a good idea to give extra life to the vines.
It might be faster but more spellbookpoints to include a Guardian Angel rather than use Togorah?
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Just remember the weakness to Fire....
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You might add a twist and try to get 1 or more bleed token(s) in, then use deathlock and then tanglevine/stranglevine everything.
I would recommend against deathlock and for poisoned blood. Stranglevine can't gain life when deathlock is down.
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You might add a twist and try to get 1 or more bleed token(s) in, then use deathlock and then tanglevine/stranglevine everything.
I would recommend against deathlock and for poisoned blood. Stranglevine can't gain life when deathlock is down.
Another reason for PB is that it can be cast by Fellela.
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Thanks for the thoughts.
Baiting sounds safest. There is no way to really force them to use one up before the strangling unless they are a solo and/or wizard. other than a turn 2-3 tanglevine or a fake stranglevine start, I don't know how to strongly bait a teleport. Plus if my opponent knows my upcoming strategy, I doubt I can bait any. On the plus side, there is only one teleport spell which can target a mage (ignoring divine intervention), so I only have to survive 4.
Each nullify has a chance to counter a teleport spell, but that's only if i get lucky. If i have 2+ facedown enchantments in a zone(decoy, astral anchor) and an enchantment wardstone, I am hopeful that each astral anchor would only get dispelled after countering a teleport upon reveal. I forgot to mention using a fellella enchantment transfusioned nullify to definitely-only-counter teleports, but that is a bit intensive. I figure once I start trying to lock them down, I should be able to counter at least 2 teleports with 2 astral anchors, 2 decoys, and an ET Nullify.
teleport wands and thoughtspore have to get destroyed asap.
This idea is complex enough without adding bleed and poisoned blood to the mix. definately no deathlock because stranglevine needs to gain life. maybe one early magebane just to speed up the DOT. I was thinking of holding out a purge magic incase they buff up or curse me heavily. I won't be able to purge them if i have curses on them.
The only flame damage which can hit a stranglevine is flame lash, zone flame attacks, and fire demons(possibly elusive). They should never be able to get more than one flame attack in before you negate their method. Surging wave's slam stops it pretty well.
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Other than restraining them in a zone with Vine Snapper I can't think of easy way to bait Teleport.
The only flame damage which can hit a stranglevine is flame lash, zone flame attacks, and fire demons(possibly elusive). They should never be able to get more than one flame attack in before you negate their method. Surging wave's slam stops it pretty well.
Also Adramelech's Warlock innate attack. It may be hard negating this one. Agony, Fumble, weak, stagger. Is there something else to lower dice or negate an attack?
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Also vines themselves, though they can gain life from the lifetree, are fragile and destroyed if they take any damage at all. Not sure if that was your intent.
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The only flame damage which can hit a stranglevine is flame lash, zone flame attacks, and fire demons(possibly elusive). They should never be able to get more than one flame attack in before you negate their method. Surging wave's slam stops it pretty well.
Agreed, just keep in mind there are quite a few demons that have the Flame Damage type and Flame Strike once legal it is quite nasty on something like a Steelclaw, but of course someone has to carry it in the first place.
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Easiest way to bait a Teleport is with another Stranglevine, probably. It takes a 8 consecutive rounds for a stranglevine to kill, though, so Vine Snapper is actually probably going to most of the threat.
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General thoughts :
I think this Stranglevine tactic needs to be setup first rather than go with it unprepared on R2 or R3.
It's key that the opposing mage is out of Teleports before you make your Stranglevine move.
Arguably the best way to do that imo is by using your Vinewhip staff to "stuck" him a few times.
Then when he seems to have no Teleport anymore, teleport him into your den and away from his support if necessary and throw the Stranglevine over him. Use your vines and Staff to hinder his support from helping him.
A perfect card to protect the vine is [mwcard=MWSTX2FFE05] Fumble[/mwcard] though expensive when used on a mage.
It's a non-mandatory reveal and the opposing mage has to state he's melee attacking the vine first, so you can leave the FD fumble on until that happens.
The card also says Fumble has no effect on "unmovable creatures" but does not mention conjurations. :)
Maybe an oversight, as conjurations are even more "immobile" as unmovable creatures imo and intuitively I'd say fumble shouldn't work on conjurations either.
A side note : when your aim is to remove your opponent's Teleports first, you don't really need Astral Anchor.
Putting him in an Anchor zone may actually have the opposite effect of what you're looking for and make him decide not to select and use his Teleports ( obviously ).
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The other thing I would keep in mind is that you want to be sure to get rid of a teleport wand immediately if it pops up. Good thing you have access to Corrosive Orchid. It won't fall victim to nullify, and so you can be sure to destroy the wand.
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Good ideas borg. I agree that it cant be done reliably earlygame. The vinestaff(stuck may end early but is repeatable) and fumble(only on unexpected heavy attacks) sound fun. I'm using the assumption that I don't know how many teleports they have, so i have to be prepared for them to have a spare or two that cant be baited. That is the main purpose of astral anchor and why i havent wanted to make this kind of book before. (ps, astral anchor can stay unrevealed until the counter spell step of a teleport. they way the opponent cant prevent it without removing all facedown enchantments from the zone)
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They're gonna have at most 4 Teleports. Tanglevines can be used to bait those out of course as could another Stranglevine as mentioned earlier. One thing that might speed this along is a Ghoul Rot which Fellela could cast. The reason I suggest it is other than the obvious damage, it gives your opponent one more problem to deal with.
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A perfect card to protect the vine is [mwcard=MWSTX2FFE05] Fumble[/mwcard] though expensive when used on a mage.
It's a non-mandatory reveal and the opposing mage has to state he's melee attacking the vine first, so you can leave the FD fumble on until that happens.
The card also says Fumble has no effect on "unmovable creatures" but does not mention conjurations. :)
Maybe an oversight, as conjurations are even more "immobile" as unmovable creatures imo and intuitively I'd say fumble shouldn't work on conjurations either.
Even though I proposed fumble earlier I see now that it won't help much (only against elusive creatures). That's because stranglevine gives its victim unmovable.
(It won't work on conjurations for simple reason. It can't target them, but it's unimportant since stranglevine can't be targeted by ranged attacks)
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A perfect card to protect the vine is [mwcard=MWSTX2FFE05] Fumble[/mwcard] though expensive when used on a mage.
It's a non-mandatory reveal and the opposing mage has to state he's melee attacking the vine first, so you can leave the FD fumble on until that happens.
The card also says Fumble has no effect on "unmovable creatures" but does not mention conjurations. :)
Maybe an oversight, as conjurations are even more "immobile" as unmovable creatures imo and intuitively I'd say fumble shouldn't work on conjurations either.
Even though I proposed fumble earlier I see now that it won't help much (only against elusive creatures). That's because stranglevine gives its victim unmovable.
(It won't work on conjurations for simple reason. It can't target them, but it's unimportant since stranglevine can't be targeted by ranged attacks)
EDITED 31.10
You're correct.
Fumble doesn't work on a (s)t(r)anglevined creature.
See laddinfance's post below.
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"Fumble has no effect on unmovable creatures" refers to the creature that Fumble is attached to.
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A vinewhip staff also may help to keep creatures from coming to the Mage's aid if not yet in the zone, or prevent Cervere in particular from getting charge bonuses with Lion Savagery.
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prevent Cervere in particular from getting charge bonuses with Lion Savagery.
cervere(all non-flying elusive) is hindered by vine markers, so no moving in and out for a charge bonus.