Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dr.Cornelius on May 05, 2018, 03:30:21 PM
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Problem Statement:
Mage Wars is an outstanding game that has trouble finding its audience and is floundering.
Observation:
Many, many games aimed at similar target market are being funded at the $500K-$2M level on Kickstarter.
Games funded at this level nearly always have a full range of highly detailed miniatures.
Most are multiplayer.
Recommendation:
Hire sculptors
Expand multiplayer
Put up a slick Kickstarter
Save the game
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I would never buy any materials for this game if it included minis.
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I don't like minis either... but I like any idea that could make AW unbury MW!
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This sounds cool, but would be terrible in practice. There are way too many miniatures. A PC game could work, implementing 3d models and 3d conjurations like barracks and that sorta stuff.
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If they needed extra funding and went to Kickstarter I'd help ofc.
I don't see a miniature game happening, however, maybe a figurine mage of your choice could be worth it, not to play with but more like a collectible.
I would also be happy with just limited edition artwork, high-quality playmat, and a magnetic chan/mana/hp tracker.
Keeping the game the same but just nice accessories and cool artwork.
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I'd help on Kickstarter...probably a lot ::)
I guess four new mages and some goodies (playmats, magnetic things, stone sculpted activation tokens,...) would be very nice too...
It would be great if it allowed AW to release new material... fans could even help :)
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Without knowing anything, I guess AW as a small company has a time problem. Anything that needs effort won't work. Anything that simply raises their cash income could realize some family holiday. But it wouldn't help the game.
Someone has to step into AWs house to earn AWs full trust to realize their strictly dreamed plan of the game. If this person would bring money, time and help with expertise he or she could safe the game and keep it going.
I truly believe the game was designed with a lot of heart and effort. With all expansions and even more games from AW they have to professionalize, give orders, work on masterplans, timetables, businessplans and delegate the “cool stuff“ to a good team including a lot of playtesters, balancers and designers. BUT they don't let loose and that's the problem that's killing it, since they can't manage everything themselves.
Maybe I am wrong, but without knowing facts that's what I guess.
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Ugh, this again. The game isn't dying, it's just not as popular because it's made by a three-person company with a corresponding amount of money. And how popular the game is very much varies by location. This year I think we've had more people active on OCTGN then I've ever seen since I first got into the game a year after it first released.
I think it's a shame the game isn't as successful outside the U.S. and I really wish the translators in other countries didn't keep discontinuing their translations of mage wars without any warning or explanation given.
I also wish MW was popular enough to support a competitive domination metagame and a competitive academy metagame.
I doubt either of those things is going to happen any time soon. Remember, AW has only 3 people in it and they've never had more than 5. This isn't mtg. MW isn't dying, it's just not growing anywhere near as big as we'd like.
Game quality isn't what determines which games become popular, it's just a historical fact of which games became better known earlier. Mtg has a big fan base because it was the first tcg *ever*. And coordination problems make it so that even if a better game comes along afterwards, people will stick to the worse game that came first because that's what their friends play. Probably if mage wars came first and had enough money for some better advertising it would be more popular.
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MW isn't popular enough to bring AW a lot of money, I agree with that. I can understand if AW stops editing MW to work and invest on profitable games.
But if they love their game and would like to see it grow further, there could be a way between kickstarter and delegation, mixing Cornelius and bigfatchef ideas. I think we are enough fan players wishing to give money and time for MW.
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If they needed extra funding and went to Kickstarter I'd help ofc.
I don't see a miniature game happening, however, maybe a figurine mage of your choice could be worth it, not to play with but more like a collectible.
I would also be happy with just limited edition artwork, high-quality playmat, and a magnetic chan/mana/hp tracker.
Keeping the game the same but just nice accessories and cool artwork.
My feelings as well.
I'm not a fan of minis for this game, but nearly anything else just accessories wise would be super cool.
Like neoprene Arena mats (they have Academy mats, but I would like an arena map that could be rolled up and have cards picked up of it easier), metallic action markers, or maybe even made of metal themselves, replacement unique tokens such as metal initiative coins and such. New Status Boards. shaped tokens for the unique functions like the "load" tokens on Ballista, Skull tokens for Altar of Skulls, Mist token for that flower, etc.
Leather spellbooks. signed art prints. metal or wood dice. just a whole lot of stuff is possible.
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Mtg has a big fan base because it was the first tcg *ever*.
Being the first ever tcg surely is a factor but the main reason Magic is still so popular is because it has BECOME an amazing game over the course of its 25 year history.
Magic is far more developed, interesting and challenging now than when I stopped playing more than a decade ago.
There are so many incredible cards to build around and so many different deckbuilding options.
I started playing Magic again about a year ago and I'm having a fantastic time with it.
Mage Wars is extremely dull in comparison as every spellbook has roughly 25-50% of identical cards.
I haven't played MW for over a year and I don't miss it at all - though I regret that, but can't help it.
One can argue that MW isn't dead but when you have no expansions for it ( and no, ... Academy doesn't count for me ) in more than a year, a game is all but dead.
IMO, the sales of MW Arena have probably fallen so far that it's not profitable anymore to release a new expansion. So, technically it's probably not dead, but practically ... ?
Anyway, I wish those who still enjoy it good times with it.
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Mage Wars is extremely dull in comparison as every spellbook has roughly 25-50% of identical cards.
Wow, I've made the exact opposite experience. Magic is fun if you do drafts because at least there you can see a certain variation of cards used - because you just don't always draft the cards you need. So by design the decks there vary.
But if you look at standard.. it's fun the first few weeks after the release, but the following month after the pro tour it's dull as heck because everyone who plays seriously (with ambition) is playing the same deck the pros play. You may see some slight variation in the sideboard, but apart from that you know exactly what cards your opponent has as early as in t1 or t2.
You are right, the different decks don't use the same cards but everyone is using the same decks and that it far worse than overlaps in essential cards, what you have in Mage Wars.
It might be the same in Mage Wars if we had a "pro scene" as well, who knows, but since we don't have a pro scene everyone builds there deck as THEY think it is best and not just copying it from the internet. That alone is reason enough for me why I prefer Mage Wars.
Apart from that, being able to choose from your whole deck every single turn adds so much more depth to the game.. Makes it so much more important to predict what your enemy might want to do, imho that's something unique no other game has.
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Ahhh, :) that great cycle of live of a Boardgame.
Uncle Billy is not Ill Timmy, he is just Old.
But Dad, he was so cool when i met him first, did he try to do something with his health?
Well, Timmy, he tried. There was this young mistress called Academy, but she just did suck out money and player focus out of him. Those who trully love him, just endure her and use some of her cardpool for being with Uncle Billy more.
But Dad, does it mean Uncle Billy is diying?
Ah, Timmy, of course not. He is just geting older and older but that mean, you will just have more respect for him, as he still can suprise you and provide fun for you.
But Dad, does it mean, that he will be here for ever?
No Billy, noone lives forever (with exception of your Grandma, that Vampire will be here until sun goes out). The only way, one can became nearly immortal is trough his children.
But Dad, is uncle Billy fit enough for having children?
Well Billy, that is a good question...
I have been into MW for 5 (maybe more?) years and i still am. Why? Because what Borg and others write. I already switch modes from promoting the game for getting new players to preserving the game, so current players less likely to leave. It works.
Every living being on this planet has only 24 hours per day and i can imagine, that Mr. Pope is super busy same as other members of AW.
It would be nice to have Female Wizard and Male Forcemaster and then the First edition ended.
Cards that didnt cycle out, current cardpool and difficuilty of creating new mages while not giving the old ones nukes in their hands (old water wizard issue with Siren, Siren specialized in subtypes etc.). I would rather see a fitting end then a slowly whitering without one.
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Magic is fun if you do drafts because at least there you can see a certain variation of cards used - because you just don't always draft the cards you need. So by design the decks there vary.
But if you look at standard.. it's fun the first few weeks after the release, but the following month after the pro tour it's dull as heck because everyone who plays seriously (with ambition) is playing the same deck the pros play. You may see some slight variation in the sideboard, but apart from that you know exactly what cards your opponent has as early as in t1 or t2.
You are right, the different decks don't use the same cards but everyone is using the same decks and that it far worse than overlaps in essential cards, what you have in Mage Wars.
It might be the same in Mage Wars if we had a "pro scene" as well, who knows, but since we don't have a pro scene everyone builds there deck as THEY think it is best and not just copying it from the internet. That alone is reason enough for me why I prefer Mage Wars.
Hi Enti,
As you point out, if MW had a "pro scene" I think you'd notice the exact same situation : lots of players bringing the same, latest powerbuild netdeck to a tournament.
However, I can't speak for "Standard" as I only play Legacy.
I think however it may be safe to say that standard may have somewhat less variety & power builds because of its limited card pool.
From my Legacy experience last year I can however say that I'm very pleased with the number and variety of competitive Legacy decks.
The "fantastic time" I'm having with it is because I like to build my own decks and not netdeck.
The challenge here lies of course in the fact that anything you come up with has to be able to stand up against the decks to beat.
I agree that in Magic tournament settings, you likely know what you're up against after your opponents' first two turns.
In MW however I usually know what my opponent has in his book BEFORE we even sit down.
Likely, at least one Dissolve, Dispel, Bear Strength, Force Push, Teleport, Regrowth, Rhino Hide, Surging Wave, Hurl Rock, Pillar of Righteous Flame, Tanglevine etc ...
That's what I dislike in MW by now : every book using too many identical staple cards from all different spell schools.
Apart from that, being able to choose from your whole deck every single turn adds so much more depth to the game.. Makes it so much more important to predict what your enemy might want to do, imho that's something unique no other game has.
That's what I thought as well.
But not anymore.
IMO 120 SBP's is too much. ( at least 20 too much imo )
A book's base strategy cards can usually be built with +/- 60 SBP's.
That leaves way too much SBP's to cherrypick a Toolbox of counter cards especially because you often need only 1 copy of a card due to the non-random draw in MW.
So many extra SBP's also means you can too easily tap into other schools.
This has two additional very negative results imo
1- games take way too long to play out as books usually have cherrypick answers to almost every situation.
2- the different schools mean nothing outside the bookbuilding phase as any mage can freely cherrypick and cast any spell he likes ( with some restrictions to some mages alright )
If I compare that with Magic TG
1- Decks are much more refined and tuned because of the random draw.
In magic every card in your deck has to advance your strategy.
If you put a "bad" card in your MW book, you're not necessarily hindered by it. You'll likely find out after a couple of plays that you never play it during a game or that the card doesn't fit but you won't suffer any gameplay consequences right away.
If you put a "bad" card in your Magic deck this can cause you to lose the game.
You can draw it into your hand thereby wasting a turn and giving your opponent one more turn to beat you.
So because of the Random Draw Magic deckbuilding needs more skill imo than MW bookbuilding and it also leads to less ( needlessly ) drawn out games.
2- The different schools actually mean something in Magic.
Figuring out how many and which Lands exactly you need to run in your deck are one of the key aspects of succesful deckbuilding. They also limit what you can play in your deck and whatnot.
In MW this doesn't matter at all. It's too easy for every mage imo to just use any spell from any school in general.
With more expansions (potentially ) coming out and thus more power cards coming out this only leads to spellbooks looking more and more identical as the number of "staples" will only grow.
So, I think MW has a problem here.
There are Toolbox decks in Magic too, like the old Survival of the Fittest decks or the more recent Green Sun's Zenith based decks but in general, most competitive decks are finely tuned decks with a specific strategy and without any "fat" on it.
In MW every spellbook is actually a Toolbox of Counters with a certain Mage and a strategy for him tacked on.
This leads to games taking way too long and becoming too repetitive after a number of games imo.
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We all have our reasons for choosing what to play. At the risk of further derailing this discussion about kickstarter and it's ability to promote games...
I love Mage Wars over and above Magic because, say what you will about how much skill it takes to refine a deck with 4 each of 11 different cards and the lands to play them, you will still have games where you draw nothing but land or draw everything but land. In effect it is completely not your fault that you have lost the game. I have seen way too many Magic games where a perfectly crafted deck just screws you over and you basically don't even get to play the game.
Contrast that with Mage Wars and, yes you can get "diced", but you have some serious control over where and when you engage and you are actually playing the game instead of the game playing you.
Additionally, your use of that "toolbox" is extremely important. You are never waiting for that one card you need to keep going with your strategy. You always have it. The decisions you get to make every turn are the most important part of a game to me. You constantly have to consider consequences. Whether you dissolve now vs later is your choice, not your deck's whim.
In the end I think if I had to boil it down, I like Mage Wars more because it primarily Tactical while maintaining a high strategic element whereas Magic is primarily Strategic (which netdecking removes) and has an overall mediocre tactical element. There certainly are some Magic games in which making the right tactical choice feels so rewarding and those are scintillating moments , but the amount of games where no tactics can assist you with a balanced game due to the land/mana issue brings those jewels back into the uncut state of mediocrity for me.
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Magic is fun if you do drafts because at least there you can see a certain variation of cards used - because you just don't always draft the cards you need. So by design the decks there vary.
But if you look at standard.. it's fun the first few weeks after the release, but the following month after the pro tour it's dull as heck because everyone who plays seriously (with ambition) is playing the same deck the pros play. You may see some slight variation in the sideboard, but apart from that you know exactly what cards your opponent has as early as in t1 or t2.
You are right, the different decks don't use the same cards but everyone is using the same decks and that it far worse than overlaps in essential cards, what you have in Mage Wars.
It might be the same in Mage Wars if we had a "pro scene" as well, who knows, but since we don't have a pro scene everyone builds there deck as THEY think it is best and not just copying it from the internet. That alone is reason enough for me why I prefer Mage Wars.
Hi Enti,
As you point out, if MW had a "pro scene" I think you'd notice the exact same situation : lots of players bringing the same, latest powerbuild netdeck to a tournament.
However, I can't speak for "Standard" as I only play Legacy.
I think however it may be safe to say that standard may have somewhat less variety & power builds because of its limited card pool.
From my Legacy experience last year I can however say that I'm very pleased with the number and variety of competitive Legacy decks.
The "fantastic time" I'm having with it is because I like to build my own decks and not netdeck.
The challenge here lies of course in the fact that anything you come up with has to be able to stand up against the decks to beat.
I agree that in Magic tournament settings, you likely know what you're up against after your opponents' first two turns.
In MW however I usually know what my opponent has in his book BEFORE we even sit down.
Likely, at least one Dissolve, Dispel, Bear Strength, Force Push, Teleport, Regrowth, Rhino Hide, Surging Wave, Hurl Rock, Pillar of Righteous Flame, Tanglevine etc ...
That's what I dislike in MW by now : every book using too many identical staple cards from all different spell schools.
Apart from that, being able to choose from your whole deck every single turn adds so much more depth to the game.. Makes it so much more important to predict what your enemy might want to do, imho that's something unique no other game has.
That's what I thought as well.
But not anymore.
IMO 120 SBP's is too much. ( at least 20 too much imo )
A book's base strategy cards can usually be built with +/- 60 SBP's.
That leaves way too much SBP's to cherrypick a Toolbox of counter cards especially because you often need only 1 copy of a card due to the non-random draw in MW.
So many extra SBP's also means you can too easily tap into other schools.
This has two very negative results imo
1- games take way too long to play out as card after card can be countered or neutralized until someone eventually runs out of counters.
2- the different schools mean nothing outside the bookbuilding phase as any mage can freely cherrypick and cast any spell he likes ( with some restrictions to some mages alright )
If I compare that with Magic TG
1- Decks are much more refined and tuned because of the random draw.
In magic every card in your deck has to advance your strategy.
If you put a "bad" card in your MW book, you're not necessarily hindered by it. You'll likely find out after a couple of plays that you never play it during a game or that the card doesn't fit but you won't suffer any gameplay consequences right away.
If you put a "bad" card in your Magic deck this can cause you to lose the game.
You can draw it into your hand thereby wasting a turn and giving your opponent one more turn to beat you.
So because of the Random Draw Magic deckbuilding needs more skill imo than MW bookbuilding and it also leads to less ( needlessly ) drawn out games.
2- The different schools actually mean something in Magic.
Figuring out how many and which Lands exactly you need to run in your deck are one of the key aspects of succesful deckbuilding. They also limit what you can play in your deck and whatnot.
In MW this doesn't matter at all. It's too easy for every mage imo to just use any spell from any school in general.
With more expansions (potentially ) coming out and thus more power cards coming out this only leads to spellbooks looking more and more identical as the number of "staples" will only grow.
So, I think MW has a problem here.
There are Toolbox decks in Magic too, like the old Survival of the Fittest decks or the more recent Green Sun's Zenith based decks but in general, most competitive decks are finely tuned decks with a specific strategy and without any "fat" on it.
In MW every spellbook is actually a Toolbox of Counters with a certain Mage and a strategy for him tacked on.
This leads to games taking way too long and becoming too repetitive after a number of games imo.
Out of curiosity, how many competitive mage wars tournaments have you participated in? Speaking for myself, the only "staples" you listed that I actually use in every deck were dissolve, dispel, and teleport. I suspect some of the more aggressive decks are better off using vanpirism and/or heal, rather than regrowth or regrowth belt. And how often do you see necromancer running bear strengths? I am not sure what your local meta looks like, but I dont think the problems you describe quite generalize outside of your local meta.
The metagame on OCTGN is a little stale, but not THAT stale. And part of the reason for that is likely that we don't have a very large number of skilled tournament players, so there is not enough people coming up with new competitive deck ideas in the first place.
It's not because MW competitive deck design space has been fully explored. It hasn't been, ever. We simply don't have a large enough player base to fully explore it.
And the idea that adding more cards to the game would *decrease* the number of competitive strategies, and that the cause for that would be the spell point system, appears to demonstrate a lack of familiarity with the history of the metagames on OCTGN and at big conventions like gen con. In the past, adding more cards to the game has increased the number of competitive spellbooks people could make. Is there some reason for this trend to reverse direction that I don't know of?
People often make the mistake of trying to make a direct comparison between game balance and metagame diversity in mage wars to that of tcgs like magic. But most tcgs don't have a spell point system. In terms of game balance and metagame diversity mage wars just doesn't work the same way as other customizable card games - they're not in the same league.
In magic and other tcgs an overpowered card unbalances gameplay directly. But in mage wars if someone includes an overpowered card in their deck, that drives other players to have to spend even more spell points on putting cards in their deck to counter it.
Back before the wizard and his tower got nerfed, it was still entirely possible to beat a skilled wizard player with a non-wizard deck. But you would have to use more of your spell points to prepare your deck for that particular matchup. And if you did that then your deck would be less able to deal with other mages besides the wizard who did not overcommit themselves to dealing with wizards.
The old wizard wasn't overpowered in the conventional sense. All of his tactics could still be countered. But he overcentralized the metagame, placing a severe limit on the number of tournament-viable strategies. When people were building decks back then, the first question they would have to ask was "how will I deal with the wizard?"
Contrast to mtg or other tcgs where oftentimes an OP card is just broken and leads to decks that use it dominating tournaments, rather than just having an advantage that limits the number of viable decks that can oppose it.
Being able to choose from your whole deck each turn makes a huge difference. If your opponent draws their OP card they could potentially use it right away. But if you draw the counter before they draw the OP card, the counter could be a dead draw until they draw their OP card.
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This has two additional very negative results imo
1- games take way too long to play out as books usually have cherrypick answers to almost every situation.
2- the different schools mean nothing outside the bookbuilding phase as any mage can freely cherrypick and cast any spell he likes ( in Mage and a strategy for him tacked on.
that's fun: I like these two aspects in MW!
1) to win you have to find a way your opponent won't have thought about
2) you can surprise your opponent, always thinking of what your mage can add to another mage's cards
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1) If you do not like long games, keep to tournament times of 75 minutes, it will make people learn to play the game well instead of messing around.
2) Schools matter after spellbook construction because they limit what cards you will be playing during a game. The fact that my Priestess can heal 16 points of damage in a turn matters. The fact that a Necromancer can spam two zombies a turn matters. The fact that a warlock can deal 12 points of damage and place 4 burn tokens on a single taget in a turn matters.