Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Player Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Cnoedel on June 25, 2014, 06:41:09 PM
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I know this might trigger some negative effects towards me but feel free to discuss my opinion.
So why exactly is Toni Darling exposing herself for the Mage Wars franchise? Everything looks completly arranged, the shirt, her enthusiams... This is just awkward - I don't know her but i suppose she is there because she is an attractive female and for no other reason - I thought AW could do better than getting on the "sex sells" train which dissapoints me (maybe just me). AW is certainly not the only Publisher and won't be the last.
The comments right under the video, having nothing to do with AW, disgust me even more:
"Chronus D. Greed
Nice dices =)"
"Алекс Иванов
I think Toni is more awesome, when game) And she has a great T-Shirt)) Operator knows what is best to take perspective) Ans so big wonderful eyes!"
This again is just me being offended, sure many of you look at things differently (otherwise such acts of promotions would not happen) and some might even think i have double standards regarding my posts in the "Where are the females" thread. Anyway, I am emotionally attached to this game because I like it a lot thus i am posting this.
My political/philosophical on society are irrelevant to the game itself, but i like to point them out.
AW, you don't need boobs to promote your game, it's awesome on it's own!
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Ok I actually went and watched the video just now, have been skipping these lately.
While not exactly going for the sex appeal in my view the video did seem rather pointless. I mean it was just a blonde chic opening a core set and telling people what was in it? Ok I can kinda see how that's cool for people who have never played the game before but it's not super useful overall.
Yes they do some shots over her shoulder while she's looking at stuff, but you don't exactly get to see a lot of cleavage and being a heterosexual male I've sort of programmed myself to notice ;D
Again I don't know if I'd call it sexist so much as having no real goal here other than showing somebody opening a game box. I've seen videos of this type with guys opening games and eh, I guess it's something to do if you got a camera and a free game.
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"I mean it was just a blonde chic opening a core set and telling people what was in it"
That sums it up perfectly! :D
And yes, not much is shown and my issue is rather small because there are much worse examples of sexism in marketing than this one, but i play MW and felt upset by this in special.
"it's something to do if you got a camera and a free game."
If she does it for free because she likes the game and unboxings you are right, but the video appeared on the Mage Wars youtube channel what strikes me as (dumb; sexist; superficial) advertisment.
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If it were a dude wearing a t-shirt would you consider it sexist? Or is this due to it's a mildly attractive female? I mean yeah if she were like "Oh Adramelech, you're so hot....let me take off this top" or even if she were just wearing the ole chain mail bikini I could see the sexism argument. Even her cosplay is of one of the more reasonably dressed mages, had she shown up as the Druid however....
I love Mage Wars too, hey we all do right, and this video strikes me as a time filler at worse. Maybe some advertising at best.
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I'm not sure, but I think this is more directed at her fans than Mage Wars'. On her facebook page she has almost 210k people who "like" her page. On a picture that she posted of her with Mage Wars, she got 850 likes, with multiple people stating that they were interested in learning about the game.
Now I didn't know who she was before this but if the sex appeal helps get more of her fans interested in watching the video, it will in turn make some of them want to learn more about the game and try it out. So, I'm all for it.
After all, it's been proven time and time again that sex appeal helps sales in this country. Like Silverclaw said, its not like she went completely out of her way to do anything overly dramatic or inappropriate. She's just an attractive young female opening up the game box and sharing what's inside with the world. I don't know the data, but I'm quite confident that over 50% of people who play board games are male, and I'm sure many of her fans are, so this will appeal to at least some of them.
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Strikes me as post-modern feminism run amuck honestly, you are disparaging a person who has been successful at least at hobby and I am guessing in to part time work for themselves. Take out the (anti)gender bias from the sentence structure and it shows no sexism one way or the other on their success.
With that said, I do respect your opinion, and can see your point of view. I do hope you are able to respect that I find your opinion upsetting.
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So everyone is aware of our plans with Toni leading to GenCon. This first video was designed in a series of videos to show a completely new player experiencing Mage Wars for the first time and continuing to grow throughout the series. Toni's profession is cosplay, and a lot of that bleeds into nerd/geek culture. Our goals as always will be to constantly improve the quality as the series expands. While we understand that some people may not have enjoyed this video as much as others we hope that you continue with the series and Toni's journey to learn our game and present it to new players who've never discovered it in her own unique way.
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One day I'd like to be able to list "Cosplayer" as a job title on a resume :) I think it's totally cool she's making her money dressing up. We got a few down here in my area too who do it for a living.
You know Laddinface just to counter the sexism argument I suggest you hire a studly attractive male to open a box of I dunno Druid vs Necromancer for YouTube. Where do I send my application? 8)
Meh the video was like 5 minutes of my life, I'll watch the next one at least. I'm flat out done watching FiF previews and reviews. I already bought the thing I don't wanna watch other people get to play with it anymore lol.
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Was this thread moved to Off Topic, or did it start here? This clearly belongs in Player Feedback and Suggestions if not General Discussion.
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You know Laddinface just to counter the sexism argument I suggest you hire a studly attractive male to open a box of I dunno Druid vs Necromancer for YouTube. Where do I send my application? 8)
That wouldn't counter the sexism argument; it would simply reduce the sexism a bit. That being said, I really don't think the sexism in mage wars is THAT big a deal. It's rather disappointing, sure, but as long as it's just the images that are somewhat sexist and not the characterizations, I fail to see why so many players are so up in arms about it. The level of sexism mage wars currently has is something to be annoyed or exasperated about, not angry. Perhaps because Arcane Wonders is such a wonderful company, some of us might forget that they are not perfect?
The vast majority of well-known movies (at least in the us) don't even pass the bechdel test, but mage wars certainly does, and yet I find it difficult to believe that those who complain about sexism in mage wars on this forum would do so just as much or more for popular American movies. (If they actually do, I apologize for my misjudgment).
Arcane wonders isn't perfect, mage wars has a decent amount of somewhat sexist portrayals of women and it STILL manages to be the most awesome game ever!
Okay. Now roll your eyes and move on.
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Was this thread moved to Off Topic, or did it start here? This clearly belongs in Player Feedback and Suggestions if not General Discussion.
Just logged in and noticed it off topic. Prob started in OT
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I am glad so many participate in the discussion. Will explain my line of thoughts soon and please move this thread to player feedback, my fault - sorry :)
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I am glad so many participate in the discussion. Will explain my line of thoughts soon and please move this thread to player feedback, my fault - sorry :)
NP the move is done.
Now I am going to the the ground work for this thread. I do not mind threads like this but it is for an open discussion of this issue. In the past when similar threads have popped up it turn into a contest about who can yell the loudest from a soap box. If this happens it will be locked and or deleted.
We are not here to attempt to force our ideas onto anybody else in our ever growing community. Carry on the discussion like ration adults and I will have no issue. 8)
PERSONAL ATTACKS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
If you can not abide these rules:
DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD >:(
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Maybe it's more of a cultural thing, but here in Slovakia, I haven't seen anyone freak out about sexism - be it over some cosplayer or MW art (as was in another thread somewhere on this forum). Nobody here gives a damn, but maybe it's because nobody here likes to get offended on someone else's behalf.
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This promotion would be banned from PAX, which is one of the big 3 con orgs in the USA, so I don't think there's any way this wasn't going to be controversial.
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This promotion would be banned from PAX, which is one of the big 3 con orgs in the USA, so I don't think there's any way this wasn't going to be controversial.
Never heard of it....
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RingKichard please explain what the PAX is and why the promotion would be banned?
I have to make some adjustment to my innitial critic - Toni is not doing this against her will thus my point is not that strong and as i mentioned before AW is not the worst case to expose sexism. (So I somewhat agree with sIke and Imaginator)
What bothers me is her approach (which may be part of the promotion, since she should represent a new player) because she acts somehere between dull and flat towards the game and it looks like she is only there because she is a female.
To silverclagrizzly: If the camera ould show his crotch and he would act overmanly, yes i would consider it sexist
To Lord0fWinter: This is an advertisment for mage wars, only secondarly aimed to her fans, it's not her in privat showing off her MW-box she just got. She is getting paid to do this.
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http://prime.paxsite.com/
http://east.paxsite.com/
I haven't been out to PAX Prime in Washington, but I've attended PAX East a few times and they fill up the Boston Convention Center, there's likely 50,000+ people there. For all events, tickets are sold out within a few hours of them going up. They recently had a convention down in Australia and I heard that sold out too.
It's a con for mostly video games, focused on consumers (as opposed to GDC which focuses on developers), but they have a sizable tabletop area too. kich's comment refers to the fact that they don't allow "booth babes" at the show because they want to be family-friendly since people of all ages attend. For example, when Lollipop Chainsaw came out, they asked the model wearing the cheerleader outfit to stay inside the game's booth rather than be out on the floor.
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Following my own logic I have to consider booth babes as "sexist" too, perhaps they are but somehow I fail to feel so, same goes with Cosplay. Now that is something I want to figure out!
To be honest, something about the video bothers me, I am not sure if it is sexism or just because it looks cheesy. This thread shows me that I am not alone in my reaction to the video but might be wrong regarding my sexism statement.
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Ah but this video doesn't just show off her female parts at all. Yes there's an over the shoulder shot but she's not exactly showing off her boobs, they're in the shot but that doesn't make it a boob shot. She's also not acting overly girlish in this video. It really is just her opening up a box. Nothing more and nothing less.
Why would you think she was doing this against her will? It's not like Laddinface is in the video holding a gun to her head forcing her to like Mage Wars is it? She obviously got paid for this, and she just as obviously choose to do the job of her own free will.
Now booth babes people have argued for and against since their beginning and I imagine they'll continue to do so. Yes it's women using their looks to attract customers for a business, but these women choose to take a job that pays money of their own free will. Is using sex appeal inherently sexist? I wouldn't say so but there have been plenty of people on both sides of that argument for years so who knows.
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I never thought that she was doing it against her will, but if she did it would be more controversial ;D
However I disagree with the over-the-shoulder-shot and her acting, again, its not the clearest situation on the "sex sells" train, but it still is there. Guess it comes down to personal impressions.
Not sure how to deal with"booth babes". I believe the topics are related to each other and I have to think about it.
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Well here we are again.
Merriam Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism) defines sexism as - unfair treatment of people because of their sex; especially : unfair treatment of women
1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
Lets look further at 2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes
So what is a Stereotype: an often unfair and untrue belief that many people have about all people or things with a particular characteristic
Yes I will concede that some of the angels use during the film were intended to be provocative (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/provocative)but the video did not in any way Stereotype Toni, gamer girls, or woman in general.
I found nothing in this video even the least bit offensive.
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I found the story from Kotaku about the PAX incident.
Warning if you found the videos with Toni offensive DO NOT open this below link.
Skimpy Outfit Gets Lollipop Chainsaw Cosplayer Asked to Change Or Leave PAX Show Floor (http://kotaku.com/5900134/skimpy-outfit-gets-lollipop-chainsaw-cosplayer-asked-to-leave-pax)
Even if you do not follow the link you can see what Jessica Nigri has to say about what happened by following the link below. Jessica was the cosplayer PAX asked to change.
Jessica Nigri discusses Sexism in cosplay and that PAX incident (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2AZHquhlOY)
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Oh yeah I remember reading this a while back. I'll concede the pink costume in that pic is pretty revealing but then a game called Lollipop Chainsaw I don't really expect to be sensible with costume design. Do women and men get objectified in video games and pop culture in general? Oh absolutely without a doubt. Could we as a society do with toning it down some? You bet and I honestly think there's been some progress there in the past few years. I will note though that this girls costume wouldn't have batted an eye at say DragonCon but it doesn't really go heavy towards the family friendly environment.
Now looking at the video with this Toni cosplayer I say again: She's wearing a t-shirt and I think some pants. If she were in a thong and bra then yeah I'd be on the sexism side of this discussion. If some buff dude dressed as He-Man and all oiled up were doing this then yeah again sexism. But I really think the sexism point in this case simply comes from the fact that it's a girl who doesn't know much about the game. I'm not exactly Captain Political Correctness but even I noticed the cards more than her boobs in the over the shoulder shots.
Cnoedel I can understand where you're coming from(or at least I think I do) but I'll just have to agree with you that it's a matter of personal impressions here as is often the case.
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Thank you Shadow and Grizzly,
I read the article and saw some youtubeVideos regarding the topic and i must admit, my complains were a bit over the top.
There is no sexism involved in the video - I still dislike the Video, but not due to sexist reasons - Hopefully I will find out what bothers me.
Excuse my emotional reaction as I first saw it, because normally when I see a MW Video, I am super hyped and amazed.
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Eh that's perfectly understandable. I'm not the biggest fan of the video but like Winter said earlier this Toni girl seems popular. If her blog gets people to learn about the game and buy it then cool.
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Eh that's perfectly understandable. I'm not the biggest fan of the video but like Winter said earlier this Toni girl seems popular. If her blog gets people to learn about the game and buy it then cool.
She posted another photo with a spellbook in it a couple days back and it got 2,000 likes and a bunch of comments. That's over 50% of how many total people like the MW fb page so I'd say the partnership is going great for getting the game out there. Granted, only about 1/5 comments were actually about the game, but hey that's still not bad.
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Thank you Shadow and Grizzly,
I read the article and saw some youtubeVideos regarding the topic and i must admit, my complains were a bit over the top.
There is no sexism involved in the video - I still dislike the Video, but not due to sexist reasons - Hopefully I will find out what bothers me.
Excuse my emotional reaction as I first saw it, because normally when I see a MW Video, I am super hyped and amazed.
I will not say if I like the video or not just that I did not see the "sexism" in it. As long is this remains a rational discussion I have no issues with continuing.
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Ah but this video doesn't just show off her female parts at all. Yes there's an over the shoulder shot but she's not exactly showing off her boobs, they're in the shot but that doesn't make it a boob shot. She's also not acting overly girlish in this video. It really is just her opening up a box. Nothing more and nothing less.
Why would you think she was doing this against her will? It's not like Laddinface is in the video holding a gun to her head forcing her to like Mage Wars is it? She obviously got paid for this, and she just as obviously choose to do the job of her own free will.
Now booth babes people have argued for and against since their beginning and I imagine they'll continue to do so. Yes it's women using their looks to attract customers for a business, but these women choose to take a job that pays money of their own free will. Is using sex appeal inherently sexist? I wouldn't say so but there have been plenty of people on both sides of that argument for years so who knows.
IMO a sufficiently intelligent or observant person, (or sometimes merely a straight woman or a gay man) might notice that her sex appeal has nothing to do with the game, and that a rather attractive (by some cultures' standards) woman saying that she likes Mage Wars has nothing to do with whether they, the person watching the advert will like it or not.
Such a person will notice the two stimulus being linked: the unconditioned stimulus being Toni's physical appearance, and the conditioned stimulus being Mage Wars. They will also notice that there is no basis in reality to link their known certain attraction to Toni's physical appearance to the unknown likelihood of their finding Mage Wars attractive too.
However, the target audience of this type of advertising, while still smart in a real sense, is not wise and observant enough to realize that. It's probably aimed at slightly shallow young adult males who treat their intellect as if it's a mere substitute for masculine muscle, and who often treat strategy games as dominance contests to boost their masculine pride.
The kind of person who believes they are eating with their mouth and strategizing with their frontal cortex, when what they're really doing is eating with their frontal cortex and strategizing with their reproductive organs.
And as much as it pains me to say it, they're probably such a huge part of geek culture that we really do need more of them here if we want Mage Wars to be more successful.
If this is the best way to reach that audience, then I'm all for it. It's not arcane wonders fault if said audience is sexist and slightly shallow. People need to stop worrying so much about the expression of sexist attitudes and start worrying more about sexual discrimination. I would hazard a guess that there are probably many more women who have been victims of employment discrimination in the past two years then the number of times sexist attitudes have been expressed in the mere portrayals of women that Arcane Wonders has produced.
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And as much as it pains me to say it, they're probably such a huge part of geek culture that we really do need more of them here if we want Mage Wars to be more successful.
If this is the best way to reach that audience, then I'm all for it. It's not arcane wonders fault if said audience is sexist and slightly shallow. People need to stop worrying so much about the expression of sexist attitudes and start worrying more about sexual discrimination. I would hazard a guess that there are probably many more women who have been victims of employment discrimination in the past two years then the number of times sexist attitudes have been expressed in the mere portrayals of women that Arcane Wonders has produced.
Well said.
@Imaginator
You still owe me a game or two since we missed the last chance.
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And as much as it pains me to say it, they're probably such a huge part of geek culture that we really do need more of them here if we want Mage Wars to be more successful.
If this is the best way to reach that audience, then I'm all for it. It's not arcane wonders fault if said audience is sexist and slightly shallow. People need to stop worrying so much about the expression of sexist attitudes and start worrying more about sexual discrimination. I would hazard a guess that there are probably many more women who have been victims of employment discrimination in the past two years then the number of times sexist attitudes have been expressed in the mere portrayals of women that Arcane Wonders has produced.
Well said.
@Imaginator
You still owe me a game or two since we missed the last chance.
That's right! Next time we meet will be in the arena! *Cackles and rubs hands together gleefully* This will be SO much fun!
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Imaginator said everything I wanted to say, and better than I could, about the intent of the Toni Darling marketing campaign. I don't agree with Imaginator's conclusion, but I think Imaginaor's summary of the situation is a great starting point, especially if both Shad0w and I can agree that it's accurate.
It's just that where Imaginator sees an odious necessity, I see a needless blunder.
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Imaginator said everything I wanted to say, and better than I could, about the intent of the Toni Darling marketing campaign. I don't agree with Imaginator's conclusion, but I think Imaginaor's summary of the situation is a great starting point, especially if both Shad0w and I can agree that it's accurate.
It's just that where Imaginator sees an odious necessity, I see a needless blunder.
Only time will reveal who is correct. No sense fussing over it.
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I just saw this one, which I thought was disappointing.
(http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/ringkichardkong/toni_darling_thor_objectionable_zps663019db.jpg)
She's portraying Thor, who's in no way related to the game.
AW is spending money to promote Toni promoting another company's IP.
If we're going to sell our decency, can't we at least get top billing?
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That's not Thor! That's Guardian Angel!
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That's look more like Female Thor than Guardian Angel's card...
By the way: Cnoedel, sorry if my comment on youtube was offensive for you (Chronus D. Greed here =) ) it was meant to be a joke (the second part os the post said that I love the game in fact XD )
PS: my first post in the forum, Hello guys =D
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No it's not. Guardian Angels don't wear pants.
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Oh yeah. You're right. But Thor wears a shirt, and he doesn't wear a bra under it (I think). It's probably the result of Toni getting Guardian Angel and Brogan Bloodstone mixed up, or a creature that hasn't been released yet.
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Or it's a sexualized version of Thorite, Valkyrie, or one of the other female characters who show up in the Thor comics.
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If you google "Toni Darling Thor" you'll see that this is the costume found, and can read from the links what was intended.
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You are quite correct ringkichard. Ah well sexy Thor it is. I was hoping for Thorite.
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If you google "Toni Darling Thor" you'll see that this is the costume found, and can read from the links what was intended.
Thank you for saying it before me.
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I am not sure if in a whole europe but in my country, woman body is not a big issue. Her Thor cosplay is one of her best costumes so far, so i dont have a problem when it is used in a promotional stuff together with her name.
What i dont dig is a breast plate of her Warlock version. With little imagination, i can tell now, where are all those demons are stored and came from :) But if this kind of approach will lure players from a customer segment which would normally didnt know or even play MW, it is a good choice from a perspective of a marketeer/promoter.
Of course, that there is a limit. If the next step would be SM Necromancer female version made of shiny things and leather, that could cause an actual trouble. (despite the fact, that this will increase sales in germany :) )
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People can argue this any which way they want, but bottom line is this is a cheesy effort to sex up Mage Wars by hiring a scantily clad woman to promote it.
Of course that's what it is. Why pretend otherwise?
It is cheap, and unnecessary. It also doesn't help that she looks so completely bored by the whole thing.
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People can argue this any which way they want, but bottom line is this is a cheesy effort to sex up Mage Wars by hiring a scantily clad woman to promote it.
Of course that's what it is. Why pretend otherwise?
It is cheap, and unnecessary. It also doesn't help that she looks so completely bored by the whole thing.
I think most people agree with you that it's a sexist appeal to a sexist demographic. Not sure whether it's necessary or not but I think it will probably help a lot considering the demographic these ads are trying to target.
And please let's not forget some important facts about these ads:
Appeal to sexual prejudice: yes
Superficial: yes
Discriminatory: no
Obscene: no, but still a little distasteful
Consensual: yes
Harmful: only if an impressionable child who watched it was never sufficiently exposed to less stereotypically portrayed women, and if that happened it would be the parents/community's fault, not the ads'. Other than that it is completely harmless free expression no matter how much we disagree with the message being expressed.
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Hello! I found the video mostly boring, only her shirt was for an official promo questionable. What I found far more bothering is the ongoing depiction of women in the game. I mean if the priestess had been a priestess of Aphrodite, it would be okay. But as a fighting mage the picture is ridicules. It is not hard to have a sexy woman in armor, but no, nightgown it is! And don't get me started on the druid.. It is quite sad but since they seem not to be willing to change their juvenile pictures, I won't buy any of the expansions.
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Hello! I found the video mostly boring, only her shirt was for an official promo questionable. What I found far more bothering is the ongoing depiction of women in the game. I mean if the priestess had been a priestess of Aphrodite, it would be okay. But as a fighting mage the picture is ridicules. It is not hard to have a sexy woman in armor, but no, nightgown it is! And don't get me started on the druid.. It is quite sad but since they seem not to be willing to change their juvenile pictures, I won't buy any of the expansions.
Even though they're really really fun? If you don't like the mage art cards that come with the game just make your own substitute. You could use a spare penny to represent your mage. As long as you have the actual ability card it doesn't really matter.
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I must agree, that Druid is not correct. Historically ane thematicaly. She should be completly naked, if she represents the nature. What is she thinking! She is a druid not some popstar from Whychwood!
And also, what disturbs me more, is animal nudity. If you look closly on WolfSpider, he is not wearing any trousers. I can see his whole and unshaven legs!!! Ankels, knees everything!!! I will not play him!
You can change her representative card any day. This is something similar to an event, when whole lake or water reservoiar was drained because someone see a guy pissing in it. Thank god, that animals didnt do that...
seriously... dont be over serious on this. I cannot imagine what kind of arguments will be shot when ppl will se a barbarian mage male version...
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Boocheck, nude animals don't matter. The human nudity is offensive!!1 Someone think of the children!!1!ELEVENTYONEONE!
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Human nudity is not offensive. Using sex for sales could be. Mage Wars are 12+ and i met ppl on the streets that are more naked than mages in the game.
If you check all mages and their art, every one of them had a something covering their crotch. Priestess is just in her summer outfit and in westlock, we all know, summers are pretty intensive.
Every person on this forum has a high intelect (pls, dont point me out as an exception ;) ), different cultural background, there is also possible language barrier and also different approach to live. We will not solve this issue here nor came up with conclusion.
If my sarcasm create more grumpy faces then smiles, i failed and then please allow me to post here an alternative art for druid and priestess for those, who sees current art as offensive. :)
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I feel like we've had this part of the discussion before, but I'll say it again. There are many ways to conform women's costume to male society. Some men want their women to look like virgins, some men want their women to look like whores. Both are archetypical roles that women are cast as, and independent of who they are as people.
Both the Burqua and the Odalisque are representations of women that cater to a male sensibility. They are not opposites in this discussion.
Oh, and the barechested barbarian who looks like Conan? A male power fantasy, just like the others. Women's fantasy men tend to be Colin Firth (as Mark or Fitzwilliam Darcy), Christian Grey, Justin Bieber, or Edward Cullen.
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Oh, and the barechested barbarian who looks like Conan? A male power fantasy, just like the others. Women's fantasy men tend to be Colin Firth (as Mark or Fitzwilliam Darcy), Christian Grey, Justin Bieber, or Edward Cullen.
Fabio, The Rock, Elvis Pressley (yes to this day), any successful Band member (think Mick Jagger), any members of a boy band, and last but not least.....Rico Suave.
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The Rock? Maybe it's the eyebrow.
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The topic of sexism has come up on this forum countless times, and each time there are a lot of people getting really heated and often disrespectful. I suspect that as this game gets more popular, and the young foolish and sexist demographic that seems to dominate geek culture fill into this community, these conversations will just get longer, less pleasant and less reasonable. I think those of us who are here this early in the game's existence should realize that we are representing the beginning of mage wars history, and most if not all of us could very well be veteran mage warriors by the time this game gets really popular.
I understand that people have very strong opinions of sexism in mage wars and what to do about it if anything, opinions that they are rather attached to, but if people are too attached to their opinions on this matter to calmly discuss and consider the merits and/or shortcomings of both their own and others' opinions, then discussing those opinions won't accomplish anything. So let's all try to think through what were saying before we say it, instead of just reacting emotionally. This conversation has mostly gone okay so far, but I just want to give a heads up in case it gets worse.
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If this does get to that point I will lock this thread and ban it as a topic for discussion.
>:(
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I am very confused by these last two posts. Could I have some specificity please? Are there posts that have been deleted?
Every comment I've seen in this thread has been respectfully discussing the issues and not other forum members. There has been nothing accusatory, personally defaming, or otherwise contrary to the rules. To my mind, the most objectionable thing in this thread is that Thor ad, and that's an official AW product.
Lets not exert a chilling effect on the conversation because of what someone might do so long as no one has done it.
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I am very confused by these last two posts. Could I have some specificity please? Are there posts that have been deleted?
Every comment I've seen in this thread has been respectfully discussing the issues and not other forum members. There has been nothing accusatory, personally defaming, or otherwise contrary to the rules. To my mind, the most objectionable thing in this thread is that Thor ad, and that's an official AW product.
Lets not exert a chilling effect on the conversation because of what someone might do so long as no one has done it.
There have been a LOT of threads on this forum over this topic which very often devolved into mudslinging. Of course they've been deleted; they make our community look completely horrible, and weren't accomplishing much of anything. Some of them started as civil debates, but they would go downhill past heated argument and spiral out of control when it passed the border of the land of love and war.
I won't name names, but as an example there was a particular person who used to go on this forum, and his somewhat chauvinistic idea of chivalry was expressed through some opinions that made a lot of people very angry. They reacted to what he was saying as if he was intentionally trying to be obnoxious just by the mere expression of his prejudicial opinions, and they kept snapping at him and criticizing him and being confrontational with him about it. He stayed calm for a while, until it got to him and he snapped and started verbally attacking people. Looking back, I regret that I did not realize what was really happening at the time and be more supportive of him instead of obliviously helping people gang up on him.
At the time I thought he was just a well intentioned but really judgmental and even obnoxious person who didn't know how to keep his hurtful comments to himself. Now I realize that he was merely expressing inaccurate opinions about other people that he did not realize or believe were hurtful because he didn't consider them to be prejudicial, then people got deeply critical of him for having those opinions, and they kept poking him with a metaphorical stick until he popped. When he popped and started verbally attacking people, I wrongly judged him as "showing his true colors" when in reality he was probably just feeling attacked and distressed, and decided to lash out against his better judgment. A good and promising player was driven away from the game by the conflict over this issue. This actually happened. It's another thing for people to think about before they open their mouths to say something nasty about another person who disagrees with them while they are talking to that person, because of said disagreement.
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You're right imaginator that these sort of topics can rapidly spiral into a bad area but, as ringkichard has said, actually I've found this current thread to be a very reasonable discussion of the topic and I for one would like to see more thoughtful discussion on this topic (provided it stays civil that is).
To get back on topic: from reading the forum responses here it seems that we as community are a bit divided on this Toni Darling campaign. If I can be as bold to make some summaries of the arguments provided here it seems that people fall roughly into two 'camps' on this issue:
1) People who don't mind the campaign seem to be citing arguments such as 'she is appropriately dressed within the context of cosplay community', 'she has a right to wear what she likes: who are we to say what is appropriate', 'it isn't really for existing fans anyway: it is to promote the game to the cosplay community', 'she isn't terribly revealingly dressed: I've seen more flesh in other situations' and 'Arcane Wonders are simply employing successful marketing strategies to promote their product'.
2) People who dislike the campaign seem to be citing arguments such as 'using images of women in revealing attire to promote a board game is not really appropriate', 'campaign smacks of a sex-sells style of promotion that should really be left in the past', 'it's unlikely that the cosplayers are really going to buy the product anyway so the campaign seems rather pointless', and 'Toni Darling doesn't appear to look that interested in the game'
I have respect for all of these arguments and can appreciate the arguments made from both 'sides'. I must admit to falling more into the second group on this issue.
However, regardless of the validity of the arguments presented on either side of the debate, it is definitely clear that this advertising campaign, when taken collectively with complaints from some about the depictions of female characters in the card art, has led to Arcane Wonders having to defend against accusations of sexism (rightly or wrongly). This topic keeps coming up in both Arcane Wonders own forums (>>here<< (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13447.0) and >>here<< (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14156.15)) and on Board Game Geek (>>here<< (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1205152/toni-darling-campaign) and >>here<< (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/13245063#13245063)) as well as being on many other threads that have since been deleted. I do therefore believe this is a real issue that needs to be addressed.
My feeling is that if they tried to tone down their images on their female character card art (more like [mwcard=FWC13]Selesius, the East Wind[/mwcard] and less like [mwcard=MW1C39]Valshalla, Lightning Angel[/mwcard]) then the people from group 1 would still buy the product (as I doubt group 1 only buys Mage Wars for the sexy card art) and you wouldn't risk alienating the buyers in group 2. Even if you do believe all of this talk of sexism is nonsense, if Arcane Wonders adopted this strategy you'd benefit from having a larger player base and not have to endure endless discussions on sexism in the forums. I would find it easier to sell the game to my gaming group (some of which have definitely been put-off by the card art). >>Here<< (http://www.booklifenow.com/2012/04/death-to-the-chainmail-bikini/) is a very good blog post about the marketing benefits of not trying to use images of women in chainmail bikinis to sell your fantasy product
I also don't believe that the Toni Darling campaign will bring in more cosplayers to the community than potential players it will alienate but I guess time will tell on that one and I don't have Arcane Wonder's sales figures to hand to test that theory.
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Really nicely written Joe, i think i agree with it.
I personally not offended by nudity. I think gorgon archer art is great, and very appropiate. I think the art of the johktari may be appropiate for a jungle warrior. But i don´t buy the "bikini chainmail" thing as it appear on the angels, or Priestess, Druid...
Is not a problem of nuddity per-se. The Forcemaster does not show much, but i dont find logic in combining deep V-neckline with a dark losse cloack. I would accept a more nude Druid - it she would be more barkskined, and less as if it where a playmate (sorry, english not my first languaje - i expect is clear what i mean). For me is more about the general tone of the game (adult, serious, a bit dark), that get a bit dilluted when females are depicted with a different tone than the males. Look at the poses of the mages... every male has feet properly stand on the ground, separated, but most of the females seem to being posing, not getting ready to fight.
On a side note, i really appreciate having mages from both genders (maybe more female creatures soon? ;)), and ages (i really like the art of the female wizard...)
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Really nicely written Joe, i think i agree with it.
I personally not offended by nudity. I think gorgon archer art is great, and very appropiate. I think the art of the johktari may be appropiate for a jungle warrior. But i don´t buy the "bikini chainmail" thing as it appear on the angels, or Priestess, Druid...
Is not a problem of nuddity per-se. The Forcemaster does not show much, but i dont find logic in combining deep V-neckline with a dark losse cloack. I would accept a more nude Druid - it she would be more barkskined, and less as if it where a playmate (sorry, english not my first languaje - i expect is clear what i mean). For me is more about the general tone of the game (adult, serious, a bit dark), that get a bit dilluted when females are depicted with a different tone than the males. Look at the poses of the mages... every male has feet properly stand on the ground, separated, but most of the females seem to being posing, not getting ready to fight.
On a side note, i really appreciate having mages from both genders (maybe more female creatures soon? ;)), and ages (i really like the art of the female wizard...)
Yeah. The non-fighting poses are pretty annoying:
The priestess (looks like she's about to dance provocatively)
The priest (looks like he's about to preach rather than fight)
The Druid (just standing there smiling like the Mona Lisa, although this is somewhat believable if she barely leaves her corner all game while her enemies fail to attack her.)
The adramelech warlock (lash left down at her side, looking up--as if Infernia were in THAT direction.)
Still, they're only an annoyance.
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I personally not offended by nudity. I think gorgon archer art is great, and very appropiate. I think the art of the johktari may be appropiate for a jungle warrior. But i don´t buy the "bikini chainmail" thing as it appear on the angels, or Priestess, Druid...
Is not a problem of nuddity per-se. The Forcemaster does not show much, but i dont find logic in combining deep V-neckline with a dark losse cloack. I would accept a more nude Druid - it she would be more barkskined, and less as if it where a playmate (sorry, english not my first languaje - i expect is clear what i mean). For me is more about the general tone of the game (adult, serious, a bit dark), that get a bit dilluted when females are depicted with a different tone than the males. Look at the poses of the mages... every male has feet properly stand on the ground, separated, but most of the females seem to being posing, not getting ready to fight.
Yeah. The non-fighting poses are pretty annoying:
The priestess (looks like she's about to dance provocatively)
The priest (looks like he's about to preach rather than fight)
The Druid (just standing there smiling like the Mona Lisa, although this is somewhat believable if she barely leaves her corner all game while her enemies fail to attack her.)
The adramelech warlock (lash left down at her side, looking up--as if Infernia were in THAT direction.)
Zorro and imaginator: I agree with you both. I appreciate that this is fantasy artwork and that therefore there is going to be a stylistic license that means that not every card is going have depictions of individuals most suitably attired for a fight. That is fine if this stylistic license is applied equally between the sexes. I guess the issue that I have is that the female humanoid figures have a much greater propensity for being depicted in much less attire and posed in a more sexually provocative style. I personally have no problem with the Adramalech Warlock or the Priest that imaginator mentions but I agree about the Druid and most of the angels.
The chainmail bikini is a classic fantasy genre trope and one that I'd rather see out community move away from as it doesn't do much to attract a female player base. Mage Wars is certainly not the worst offender for this (not by a long shot) and I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say that I find these images "offensive" (indeed as pieces of artwork in and of themselves they are fantastic). However, by not challenging this fantasy trope we give tacit consent to it and I for one would rather a more balanced representation of the sexes in the games that I play.
I really like the art of the female wizard...
However, I don't wish to sound too negative. This quibbles are relatively minor points about a game that I love. There are some great examples of female card art in the game and I agree with zorro that the female wizard looks great. I hope that Arcane Wonder continues in this vein with future expansions.
Anyway I apologise that my comments appear to have knocked us a little off-topic as we are now discussing card-art and not the Toni Darling campaign...