Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Player Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: payprplayn on July 08, 2014, 03:16:58 PM
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I've seen a lot of people saying the JBM needs a quick action ranged weapon. I suspect the fear is that move-shoot might be OP when it's combined with fast and costs no mana. I've been thinking about this and have a solution of sorts to propose. It's not a fleshed-out card because I think it would take a fair amount of playtesting to determine the appropriate mana cost/ damage dice/ effects (though I think poison would be flavorful). Basically what matters is its mechanic. I'm thinking a crossbow or blowgun idea, nature mage only, that works kind of like a war machine. It comes into play loaded and becomes unloaded when it's attack is used. Once per round the mage may pay 2 mana OR spend a quick action to load it. This could be tracked with a load token (like war machines) or simply a ready marker, since it only has two states (loaded/unloaded). Basically the idea is it's quick to fire, but she has to either spend time reloading it or infuse it with magical energy to make it "grow" new amunition. Thoughts?
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This is an interesting thought, make her use her quick cast action to load the weapon with a small mana cost, she could then move and shoot. Once again the damage would have to be very small, I would think: [Ranged:1-2][2] with range reducing die by one. They way the stack wouldn't get large and that would be all she could do during each of her Action Phase, and yes I would make it a Load Token to make it consistent.
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I was actually thinking it would be a free action to reload if she paid the mana, or she could take a quick action to reload for no mana. It wouldn't be a quick spell though, so she couldn't do it with her quickcast. Basically she could shoot every other round if she didn't use her action for something else and didn't spend mana. If she spent the mana, she could shoot every round, but even though it has a mana cost (to reload) the attack still wouldn't be a spell, so she could only fire during her main action, but could take advantage of her ranged+1 trait. I don't think you actually would have to nerf it too hard beyond this, honestly, I think the standard 4 dice would be fine, although I was thinking it might be neat to give it fewer dice, but a decent chance at a poison effect, maybe 2 dice + d12: 8+=rot, or 0 dice (she'd actually roll one) and d12:6+= tainted. Like I say, some playtesting would be needed to balance this, so I mostly was interested in pitching the reloading mechanic.
Edit: I'm not married to the 2 mana price tag either, but I think it's important that she have the option shoot every round if she pays for it.
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Or some weapon with skirmish trait. I like the blowgun idea! I am not sure how it will fit thematically into savanah but some african tribe must also use blow guns.
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I fail to see why she can't move and shoot in one turn with a decent bow, especially considering the Lash of Hellfire basically offers the same thing and can be quite overpowered basically right out the gate.
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I fail to see why she can't move and shoot in one turn with a decent bow, especially considering the Lash of Hellfire basically offers the same thing and can be quite overpowered basically right out the gate.
Add in Fast and she can cover any zone on the board each round....
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Yes, and forgo summoning a creature, it can be destroyed with dissolve, and there are plenty of ways to minimalize the effects of it. It wouldn't be game breaking at all. Heck, a Warlock with Lash of Hellfire enchanted with the fast trait offer is just as 'game breaking' but it is something I have to shut down every other game because I have a friend who loves to play the Warlock. It would go a long way to improve the Joh Beast Master because when it comes to mobs she is drastically inferior to the original Beast Master with his quick summoning ability and it would play to her strengths a lot more.
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No it would not be any where near the same. The Warlock would be able to move two zones and only attack in that zone. She would be able to move two zones and attack two zones further away. She could avoid Hindering zones and still lay down an attack or move two zones away from danger and attack that danger.
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Why not make a quiver for the cloak slot that allows her to make a full action ranged attack from her bow weapon into a quick action attack but as a downside either reduce the range of that attack or reduce the dice rolls by half and the effect rolls are reduced also maybe by three
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I like the quiver idea. In fact, the quiver could become a keyword with such properties (less range, or penalty for the effect die or whatever) and AW could create several quivers adding further traits or effects to the attack. Quiver of poison arrows would add Rot condition, burning arrows can add burn and so on. Though to somehow balance the added benefit, they could come with further penalties, like -1 attack die or somewthing.
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The interesting thing to me about this thread are the people confidently telling sIKE they know it would be fine, without having tried it for themselves.
Do what we do; try it.
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You mean like equipping any mage with an elemental wand with a low cost spell and enchanting them to be fast? The argument that sIKE is making is something that I have encountered numerous times.
My buddy's opening moves are usually equipping his warlock with a lash of hellfire, and an elemental wand. Next turn is the ring that boosts his fire attacks (whose name escapes me) and cheetah speed, third round is him slapping on bear strength as a quick spell. You now have a mage that is running around dealing 8 dice of damage in melee combat or 7 attack die of damage for five mana each turn with no real way to get away from him. Plus all those burn markers that are a pain in the ass to remove with the new FiF cards that can be exploded all over your face.
Except by summoning up something bigger as a decoy or that is fire proof, dissolving his euqipment, disenchanting him, or a plethora of other options that are easily agains a powered up Joh Beast master.
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You now have a mage that is running around dealing 8 dice of damage in melee combat or 7 attack die of damage for five mana each turn with no real way to get away from him.
<3
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You mean like equipping any mage with an elemental wand with a low cost spell and enchanting them to be fast? The argument that sIKE is making is something that I have encountered numerous times.
My buddy's opening moves are usually equipping his warlock with a lash of hellfire, and an elemental wand. Next turn is the ring that boosts his fire attacks (whose name escapes me) and cheetah speed, third round is him slapping on bear strength as a quick spell. You now have a mage that is running around dealing 8 dice of damage in melee combat or 7 attack die of damage for five mana each turn with no real way to get away from him. Plus all those burn markers that are a pain in the ass to remove with the new FiF cards that can be exploded all over your face.
Except by summoning up something bigger as a decoy or that is fire proof, dissolving his euqipment, disenchanting him, or a plethora of other options that are easily agains a powered up Joh Beast master.
I then equip Leather Boots and Gloves, Dragonscale Hauberk, and Elemental Cloak and then a Reverse Magic. I then go to Dissolve the Wand and the Lash hoping that the Reverse Magic takes care of one for me. He either be casting Buff spells and attacking or playing defensive spells he only has enough actions and mana for one or the other. All the while I can work my defense to negate his advantage.
A bow and Hawkeye are two actions with a double move first round. I can't get rid of the Fast and she is then casting Armor and shooting. Sure I can start equipping up, but it is very difficult (the BM player has to make a mistake) to get the tempo back...
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You could make her slow which would get rid of the fast....enfeeble I believe is the card
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I want her to have quick 1D ranged wep but it is very very hard to balance. In fact I made up a few and they never got to the majority of testers due to concerns.
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You could make her slow which would get rid of the fast....enfeeble I believe is the card
She dispel it then what happens? I doubt you would have 2 Enfeeble in a spellbook.
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What about this? "Frog Venom Darts" 6 Mana, one handed (only weapon slot) Quick Attack, poison, 1 dice range 0-2 Effect die, If 5+ the target is considered to be hindered. Critical Damage (it bypasses all armor) This weapon cannot roll more than one damage die per attack, regardless of other effects.
Or reduce range to 0-1 and daze on 9+
You could also pair it with an off-hand dagger like "Flint dagger" 7 cost one handed, any hand, quick melee 3 dice plus 7+ bleed
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What about this? "Frog Venom Darts" 6 Mana, one handed (only weapon slot) Quick Attack, poison, 1 dice range 0-2 Effect die, If 5+ the target is considered to be hindered. Critical Damage (it bypasses all armor) This weapon cannot roll more than one damage die per attack, regardless of other effects.
Or reduce range to 0-1 and daze on 9+
You could also pair it with an off-hand dagger like "Flint dagger" 7 cost one handed, any hand, quick melee 3 dice plus 7+ bleed
So...you want to make a weapon for the JBM, then make it incompatible with one of her signature abilities?
Plus it's poison on top of that, which is just horrible...
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What about this? "Frog Venom Darts" 6 Mana, one handed (only weapon slot) Quick Attack, poison, 1 dice range 0-2 Effect die, If 5+ the target is considered to be hindered. Critical Damage (it bypasses all armor) This weapon cannot roll more than one damage die per attack, regardless of other effects.
Or reduce range to 0-1 and daze on 9+
You could also pair it with an off-hand dagger like "Flint dagger" 7 cost one handed, any hand, quick melee 3 dice plus 7+ bleed
So...you want to make a weapon for the JBM, then make it incompatible with one of her signature abilities?
Plus it's poison on top of that, which is just horrible...
I didn't want to make it too good.
An alternative could be removing the critical damage and just making it zero red dice. so it doesn't roll anything unless you boost it first. It needs to have a good effect die ability to make it worth using over a bow though.
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I'm not entirely sure what she needs is a quick weapon. She has animals to attack when she's not. There needs to be synergy between her abilities.
Wounded prey: At the moment this is rather situational. It tends to take quite a while to destroy threatening enemy non-mage creatures, and meanwhile the enemy mage is not being attacked. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a nature school version of altar of carnage? So far the only card that rewards her for having her animals attack nonmage enemy creatures is mana vampirism. I've been trying to get this to work with her for a mana ramp/mana denial/small swarm sort of strategy, but I'm not sure it's really helping to boost her any more than she otherwise would be without it.
Innate Fast and archery skill: Innate fast is very powerful for positioning. She doesn't need to be attacking every single round, she has animals. She really seems to like hit and run tactics. So on some rounds you hit and on other rounds you run. At least with innate fast the rounds in which she runs she's able to do more than just run. She can cast a totem, or call of the wild and let her animals have at the enemy, or she can cast a group heal to keep her animals alive, or use a dispel, a dissolve, an acid ball, etc. etc. Then on other rounds she can use her full action to shoot with her hunting bow, and her quickcast action for similar things as the running rounds.
In short, she wants her animals to attack and destroy enemy threats by using her wounded prey ability, which means she wants a mid to late game strategy so that she actually has enough time to deal that much damage to things. She needs cards that will reward her for having her animals attack and destroy things, similar to altar of carnage. Maybe something that allows both her and her creatures to eat the bodies of their destroyed enemies? So like, a totem that gives her creatures growth markers every time they attack and destroy an enemy living creature or conjuration. I like the second option a lot. Also, I really like ACG's idea of Caustic venom, an enchantment that changes bleed conditions into corrode conditions. However, I wonder if that might work better as an incantation instead.
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I want her to have quick 1D ranged wep but it is very very hard to balance. In fact I made up a few and they never got to the majority of testers due to concerns.
I was thinking about that yesterday... Wizard's Zap is a quick ranged attack 0-1 with 3 attack dice and is Ethereal. Also it doesnt take equipment slot.
I don't see how a ranged weapon costing 10 mana with a 1D quick attack is out of balance compared to zap.
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I want her to have quick 1D ranged wep but it is very very hard to balance. In fact I made up a few and they never got to the majority of testers due to concerns.
I was thinking about that yesterday... Wizard's Zap is a quick ranged attack 0-1 with 3 attack dice and is Ethereal. Also it doesnt take equipment slot.
I don't see how a ranged weapon costing 10 mana with a 1D quick attack is out of balance compared to zap.
Because she has innate fast.
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A wizard can get Fast too. And don't reply it can get dispelled because I will reply JBM could get the weapon dissolved.
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Gentlemen, please keep it civil.
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A wizard can get Fast too. And don't reply it can get dispelled because I will reply JBM could get the weapon dissolved.
Please give me some credit; I wasn't going to say that. Both the weapon and cheetah speed cost an extra action to cast. The Johktari bm basically gets a free extra quick action every round because of innate fast.
It costs the wizard 6 mana and two actions (one full, one qc) to get both fast and 1 arcane zap.
It costs the Johktari bm 2 actions (one qc, one full) and at least 8 mana to both have the fast trait and shoot with a bow. (First equip bow, then shoot; fast is free)
If she had a bow which gave her a quick action ranged attack it would cost her only one full action and 8 mana maybe even less. Wizard is still paying one full action, one quickcast action and 6 mana.
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A wizard can get Fast too. And don't reply it can get dispelled because I will reply JBM could get the weapon dissolved.
Please give me some credit; I wasn't going to say that. Both the weapon and cheetah speed cost an extra action to cast. The Johktari bm basically gets a free extra quick action every round because of innate fast.
It costs the wizard 6 mana and two actions (one full, one qc) to get both fast and 1 arcane zap.
It costs the Johktari bm 2 actions (one qc, one full) and at least 8 mana to both have the fast trait and shoot with a bow. (First equip bow, then shoot; fast is free)
If she had a bow which gave her a quick action ranged attack it would cost her only one full action and 8 mana maybe even less. Wizard is still paying one full action, one quickcast action and 6 mana.
This doesn't make any sense...
Casting Cheetah Speed is a quick cast action, attacking wih zap is a quick action.
Casting some new QuickRangedWeapon would be a quick cast action, attacking with that weapon would be a quick action.
Result: Both mages have Fast and a quick ranged attack.
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A wizard can get Fast too. And don't reply it can get dispelled because I will reply JBM could get the weapon dissolved.
Please give me some credit; I wasn't going to say that. Both the weapon and cheetah speed cost an extra action to cast. The Johktari bm basically gets a free extra quick action every round because of innate fast.
It costs the wizard 6 mana and two actions (one full, one qc) to get both fast and 1 arcane zap.
It costs the Johktari bm 2 actions (one qc, one full) and at least 8 mana to both have the fast trait and shoot with a bow. (First equip bow, then shoot; fast is free)
If she had a bow which gave her a quick action ranged attack it would cost her only one full action and 8 mana maybe even less. Wizard is still paying one full action, one quickcast action and 6 mana.
This doesn't make any sense...
Casting Cheetah Speed is a quick cast action, attacking wih zap is a quick action.
Casting some new QuickRangedWeapon would be a quick cast action, attacking with that weapon would be a quick action.
Result: Both mages have Fast and a quick ranged attack.
Nevermind you're right I was getting mixed up with something else. I'm sleep deprived.
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I've had some thoughts on this topic for awhile. In my opinion, being fast doesn't really help ranged creatures, and it should. Mobile archers exist(ed) both in real life and in many popular forms of media.
Instead of changing the Johktari Beastmaster or her bow, I think it would be more beneficial to add a few new rules. Here are the possibilities I've thought up:
1. Biggest Buff to Ranged Units:
Instead of taking a full-action ranged attack, a creature may instead move one space and perform the listed full-action ranged attack as a quick-action. The attack loses 1 maximum range, 2 dice, and 4 from the effect die roll (if any). If the creature possesses the fast trait, it may make one free movement without incurring this attack penalty, and may move up to 2 spaces in total before declaring an attack.
2. Medium Buff:
If a creature possesses the fast trait, instead of taking a full-action ranged attack, a creature may instead move one space and perform the listed full-action ranged attack as a quick-action.
3. Minor Buff:
If a creature possesses the fast trait, instead of taking a full-action ranged attack, a creature may instead move one space and perform the listed full-action ranged attack as a quick-action. The attack loses 1 maximum range, 2 dice, and 4 from the effect die.
Option 1 (which is probably overpowered) makes ranged units just as mobile as melee ones. Option 2 allows the fast trait to benefit ranged troops just as much as melee ones. Option 3 basically just allows for occasionally better positioning and mobility at the cost of effectiveness. Regardless of what happens, the Johktari Beastmaster really needs more synergy between her traits and abilities.
For those wondering, I came up with the attack penalties by picturing half-drawn bows (less distance, less impact, but faster).
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I would rather use effect die. If creature moved and used its ranged attack, there is greater possibility for it to miss, similar to daze effect. Maybe it will be some kind of skill of a creature we will met in future :)
But i must say, i am fine with current state. I know it will change in a future and i cannot imagine fully, how meta will be affected when Skirmish trait will be added into the game. There are still great years of MW ahead of us :)
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How about giving her +1 zone in addition to the Ranged +1 trait for any non-specific ranged attacks?
This only requires a change to her ability card and makes her bow more of a threat for the full action she must use.
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I would rather use effect die. If creature moved and used its ranged attack, there is greater possibility for it to miss, similar to daze effect. Maybe it will be some kind of skill of a creature we will met in future :)
I personally dislike using the effect die, since it makes the effects more random. I prefer a certain degree of predictability. ;)
How about giving her +1 zone in addition to the Ranged +1 trait for any non-specific ranged attacks?
This only requires a change to her ability card and makes her bow more of a threat for the full action she must use.
I'm not sure how much that would really help her, to be honest. Her fast trait would still be useless (I'm not sure if you were saying to replace fast with +1 zone or simply add it on top). From the way she's designed, I think the devs wanted her to be a mobile archer: kiting stuff around the board and picking them off one by one. Unfortunately, +1 range wouldn't aid that, since she would still have to stop for a full turn every time she wanted to attack or summon a creature. That would make her more suited towards being a ranged turret, but I would actually prefer a mobile approach (since it would be more unique).
Also, if the devs are going to errata her card, I'd like them to fix up her main ability as well. In my opinion, it is tied with the Bloodwave Warlord's Veteran markers for weakest ability (and at least the Warlord gets battle orders). It is too situational, and barely impacts the game in almost all circumstances. The ability is also weird, since it tries to promote swarm tactics and melee fighting when the Straywood Beastmaster is better at both of those things.
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I dont see the 2 abilities (fast and ranged+1) synergize with each other.
Just like i dont see curse weaving synergizing with blood reaper. Or arcane zap with voltaric shield. Or Priestess cleanse with ability to gain life when casting holy incantations/enchantments, etc etc.
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I dont see the 2 abilities (fast and ranged+1) synergize with each other.
Just like i dont see curse weaving synergizing with blood reaper. Or arcane zap with voltaric shield. Or Priestess cleanse with ability to gain life when casting holy incantations/enchantments, etc etc.
Assuming that response is sarcastic, I have some questions for you. What does the Johktari Beastmaster do better than the Straywood one? Especially if the Straywood Beastmaster has a Cheetah Speed and Hawkeye in his spellbook. What does the Johktari Beastmaster uniquely bring to the game? Every other mage has an ability which twists established game rules and provides a different playing experience. Instead, the Johktari Beastmaster basically gets a free Marked for Death (except worse). Oh joy.
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The Johktari Beastmaster has more incentive to run a bow than other mages, and can use her early mobility advantage to pressure her opponent quickly without falling behind on actions. I find that she does have a different style than the Straywood Beastmaster, and is more reliant on the Lair. The Straywood Beastmaster can certainly use the Lair, but you can also opt for a Battle Forge or no Spawnpoint. Overall I tend to think that the Johktari Beastmaster struggles without the Lair because she either wants to use her full action to make ranged attacks with a bow or to regain range 2 while casting something. The Johktari Beastmaster is better at kiting than the Straywood.
Now, for any strategy that involves running at the enemy mage, and trying to stay in melee, I would much prefer the Straywood Beastmaster. Even if I was just going to use my mage in a support role, I would rather use the Straywood Beastmaster for Pet, Quick Summoning, and a higher base life total.
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Overall I tend to think that the Johktari Beastmaster struggles without the Lair because she either wants to use her full action to make ranged attacks with a bow or to regain range 2 while casting something. The Johktari Beastmaster is better at kiting than the Straywood.
I agree with the first sentence, but I don't find her better at kiting than the Straywood version (at least not when using a bow, like she was designed for). Having the fast trait doesn't benefit archers whatsoever, and she still lacks elusive (which means if anything catches up to her she's not going to get away easily). The fact that she can't move if she ever wants to attack means she can only outrun slow creatures.
My problems with the Johktari Beastmaster are twofold:
1. Her abilities do not possess synergy: fast and ranged +1 are mutually exclusive, and Wounded Prey doesn't boost ranged attacks.
2. Current two-handed weapons are really weak. Bows have the same problem as the war sledge: they take up two equipment slots, but don't offer any benefits over a single-handed weapon and a wand.
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You can't use both her Ranged +1 and Fast at the same time, but you can build your strategy so that you will get to benefit from one or the other turn to turn depending on what your opponent is doing. If your opponent fights your creatures, you can remain at range 2 and attack with your bow repeatedly. If they chase you, you can use Mongoose Agility, Tanglevine, and Teleport to stay away from your opponent while your animals maul them, and use other ranged options to harass them. Acid Ball, Surging Wave, Hurl Boulder, and curses come to mind.
While the Johktari Beastmaster doesn't start with Elusive, having innate Fast makes Mongoose Agility a much stronger card for her than for a Straywood Beastmaster doing essentially the same thing.
I wish Wounded Prey at least worked on Nonliving creatures, but it's a free attack boost for your animals in some circumstances. While it's not spectacular, getting bonuses for free is always nice. Pet may be a better ability overall, but it costs you mana to use it.
While the Straywood Beastmaster can try to kite, Enfeeble is much more crippling if you don't play Cheetah Speed, you're more vulnerable to Destroy Magic, Purge Magic, Dispel, and Arcane Corruption if you rely on Cheetah Speed, it requires more setup (this is the real reason I don't think it works as well), and you're not able to punish your opponent for fighting your creatures as well. Plus you're wasting Battle Skill and Pet.
And bows do have an offsetting advantage over one handed weapons. They let you kill things without getting killed back, and let you exert force on a larger section of the board. Without spending additional mana. Wands cost you mana repeatedly to use. I don't particularly relish getting in a slugging match with Iron Golems, and a bow allows me to pressure my opponent without doing that. Whether that's enough of an advantage is up for debate, but you shouldn't discount it.
Besides, you should consider playing Hawkeye on the Johktari Beastmaster anyway, so you're still ahead on damage with a bow playing Johktari over Straywood.
I'd like to see more different options for how to play the Johktari Beastmaster, and more weapon options, but I don't see the Straywood Beastmaster performing as well as the Johktari Beastmaster as the mage in my Blood Wolves build.
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Assuming that response is sarcastic, I have some questions for you. What does the Johktari Beastmaster do better than the Straywood one? Especially if the Straywood Beastmaster has a Cheetah Speed and Hawkeye in his spellbook. What does the Johktari Beastmaster uniquely bring to the game? Every other mage has an ability which twists established game rules and provides a different playing experience. Instead, the Johktari Beastmaster basically gets a free Marked for Death (except worse). Oh joy.
Why would my response be sarcastic?
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Sorry in advance for the long response.
Why would my response be sarcastic?
Sorry if I misread your response; I wasn't entirely certain if it was sarcastic, or if you really didn't see any synergy between those examples. Granted, I probably should have mentioned that I wasn't referring to direct interactions with the abilities, but how they help the Mage type as a whole.
Curseweaving helps the Warlock avoid running out of curses (since they are his bread and butter), and Bloodreaper allows the Warlock to heal every turn, so long as he is being aggressive (and his pet stays alive). Both abilities allow the Warlock to stay in the game for a moderate amount of time while his curses wear down the enemy mage.
Arcane Zap and the Voltaric Shield both allow the Wizard to avoid damage at the expense of mana. Arcane Zap gives him a default range advantage (making him less likely to be attacked), and Voltaric Shield lets him absorb one small hit every round (assuming that you've activated it). These help give the Wizard enough time to disable enemy creatures, starve the opponent of mana, or set up a base.
The Priestess' cleanse and life-gain abilities create an advantage for her the longer the game goes on. Cleansing a single condition (such as rot) is enough to save even the biggest creature's life, given enough time. The life-gain, when combined with the holy school's numerous healing options, allows the priestess to become the hardest mage to kill (again, given enough time).
You can't use both her Ranged +1 and Fast at the same time, but you can build your strategy so that you will get to benefit from one or the other turn to turn depending on what your opponent is doing. If your opponent fights your creatures, you can remain at range 2 and attack with your bow repeatedly. If they chase you, you can use Mongoose Agility, Tanglevine, and Teleport to stay away from your opponent while your animals maul them, and use other ranged options to harass them. Acid Ball, Surging Wave, Hurl Boulder, and curses come to mind.
While the Johktari Beastmaster doesn't start with Elusive, having innate Fast makes Mongoose Agility a much stronger card for her than for a Straywood Beastmaster doing essentially the same thing.
While the Straywood Beastmaster can try to kite, Enfeeble is much more crippling if you don't play Cheetah Speed, you're more vulnerable to Destroy Magic, Purge Magic, Dispel, and Arcane Corruption if you rely on Cheetah Speed, it requires more setup (this is the real reason I don't think it works as well), and you're not able to punish your opponent for fighting your creatures as well.
The thing is, any mage (or regular creature) can move 2 spaces by default. The only benefit of being fast (other than being more resistant to enfeeble, as you mentioned) is that you can attack after moving those 2 spaces. Since (as we've established) no bow will allow you to attack after moving at all, the only 2 ways the Johktari can possibly take advantage of both her fast and ranged +1 traits in the same game are to keep switching weapons (which wastes mana and actions), or to deliberately move into an enemy's zone at the end of her turn and use her basic melee attack (which is counter-productive in almost every situation).
In addition, although I'm sure this varies by playing community, none of the opponents I have ever faced have focused on my creatures instead of my mage. There might be occasional threats that they divert their attention towards temporarily (Shaggoth-Zora, Iron Golem, Hydra, etc.), but they will still almost always keep pressure on my mage as well.
Let's say that the enemy does decide to chase you with 2 fairly threatening, melee only, non-slow creatures. For the sake of simplicity, let's also say that neither player can play any movement spells (teleport, tanglevine, etc.). How can the Beastmaster respond (with the bow, not out-of-school attack spells)? She can run away without firing her bow until the 2 creatures inevitably corner her. She can stand still, fire her bow once, and then stand her ground (which won't allow her to use her bow anymore) while allowing the enemy creatures to take full-action attacks against her. Or she can fire her bow once, and then futilely attempt to outrun the creatures while not being able to attack them, while she in turn suffers quick-attacks from them every turn.
It might seem like I'm being overly harsh against the Johktari Beastmaster, but she simply isn't well put-together. She absolutely needs elusive in order to function properly, and even that won't allow her to make good use of her bow. No other mage needs a single card as badly as she does. A Forcemaster can function just fine without her Forcefield, and a Warlock doesn't necessarily need Lash of Hellfire or Sectarus to win.
And bows do have an offsetting advantage over one handed weapons. They let you kill things without getting killed back, and let you exert force on a larger section of the board. Without spending additional mana. Wands cost you mana repeatedly to use. I don't particularly relish getting in a slugging match with Iron Golems, and a bow allows me to pressure my opponent without doing that. Whether that's enough of an advantage is up for debate, but you shouldn't discount it.
Besides, you should consider playing Hawkeye on the Johktari Beastmaster anyway, so you're still ahead on damage with a bow playing Johktari over Straywood.
I might have been a bit hasty in saying that bows don't have any advantages. What I should have said was that they most definitely are not worth it in the vast majority of circumstances. They are simply too limited. Wands are infinitely more flexible, can target things within the same zone as you (usually), and allow for both positioning and an attack on the same turn. Attack spells usually also deal more damage or have better effects than bows. From personal experience, wands are my biggest dissolve targets. But I have never, not even once, bothered to dissolve a bow.
Hawkeye will give the Johktari Beastmaster an advantage over the Straywood one. However, for reasons that have yet to be explained to me, Hawkeye only gives +1 die while Bear Strength gives +2 (for 2 more mana). So once again, melee weapons beat out bows.
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Why would the Johktari be running away from those 2 creatures in isolation? The whole point is that her animals would be attacking things and providing hindering while she positioned against the enemy threats. That's a large part of why she's so dependent on the Lair. Elusive helps with that, but you can still drastically limit how many attacks your enemy gets against you with proper positioning and action sequencing even without it.
I've seen both board dominance plays (focusing on your opponent's creatures) and assassination plays (focusing down the enemy mage while ignoring their creatures as much as possible). Both can work, and which you should do depends on the board state, your overall strategy, and the matchup.
Hawkeye only gives Ranged +1 because otherwise it would be really strong with spammed attack spells, as you can get the bonus easily twice per round (particularly with the Wizard's extremely cheap Arcane Zap), and it's much harder to defend against ranged attacks, as most guards won't help. You can get the benefit of Bear Strength multiple times per round, but you need to use Defend or Retaliate, and your opponent needs to attack that creature. It's more situational to get the bonus multiple times in a round and requires setup. Plus if you're in range to hit your opponent with a melee attack, they'll be able to attack you with something, which is not necessarily true with a ranged attack.
You don't need a weapon to make a melee attack. Often it's more efficient to use Bear Strength to boost a melee attack than a weapon anyway. On the other hand, you can't make a ranged attack without a ranged weapon or attack spell.
I agree that the Johktari Beastmaster could be better supported, and I'd like to see more flexible options for her, but she's still very playable.
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Hawkeye only gives Ranged +1 because otherwise it would be really strong with spammed attack spells, as you can get the bonus easily twice per round (particularly with the Wizard's extremely cheap Arcane Zap), and it's much harder to defend against ranged attacks, as most guards won't help.
That makes sense, but unfortunately it does leave regular (non-magical) ranged attacks a tad behind. Hopefully more cards come out that boost ranged attacks. The only ones I can think of at the moment are Hawkeye and Sniper Shot.
Why would the Johktari be running away from those 2 creatures in isolation? The whole point is that her animals would be attacking things and providing hindering while she positioned against the enemy threats. That's a large part of why she's so dependent on the Lair. Elusive helps with that, but you can still drastically limit how many attacks your enemy gets against you with proper positioning and action sequencing even without it.
I agree that the Johktari Beastmaster could be better supported, and I'd like to see more flexible options for her, but she's still very playable.
Let's forget the scenario for a moment. I just want you to answer one question: What advantage does the innate fast trait give to the Johktari Beastmaster when she is being played as was intended by the developers (with her bow equipped)? Besides the niche application of being unaffected by Enfeeble (a card which most Mages aren't going to run).
Additionally, what would you personally change in regards to the Johktari Beastmaster and/or the Hunting Bow, if anything?
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I like the idea of every other round the ranged weapon being readied. Alternatively they could have it cost mana to actually shoot the weapon making it no different then an attack spell in that regard. Thematically a crossbow is a hard sell for me though. Perhaps a spear thrower, blow gun, or sling? Maybe a spear thrower, blow gun AND a sling? One for the higher damage, one for the weaken or cripple effect, one for the slam condition. I think all of the examples should have a range of 1 however. Give creatures a chance to hinder her by double moving.
As is the Johktari does not appeal to me even slightly. She is the only mage I have not built a book for. I almost did when I first got her and got as far as reading the two bow equipment cards. Saw it was a full action to shoot and discarded the concept. Have never looked back which makes me sad.
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Let's forget the scenario for a moment. I just want you to answer one question: What advantage does the innate fast trait give to the Johktari Beastmaster when she is being played as was intended by the developers (with her bow equipped)? Besides the niche application of being unaffected by Enfeeble (a card which most Mages aren't going to run).
Wounded Prey is an unpreventable ability that gives her a very competitive edge in melee with zero support from any other melee ++. It's got its share of red tape but it stacks with marked for death, bear strength, and all the other applicable sources of melee ++.
With built in fast she can make more effective melee strikes to a large part of the arena at any given time.
Archery Skill puts her bow attacks at 5 which gives her a solid foundation to built multiple strategies.
The beastmaster is intended to be played multiple ways, one of which is the hunting bow. It is not required but adds to her different styles of play.
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The beastmaster is intended to be played multiple ways, one of which is the hunting bow. It is not required but adds to her different styles of play.
I would argue that the Beastmaster is at a disadvantage due to her lack of a niche. The concept of a flexible all-rounder runs into problems in every game that tries to include it. This reminds me of when I tried playing as a Ranger in Guild Wars 2 (right after release). Everyone shunned that class and refused to group with one (they still might; I don't play anymore). The problem was that a Ranger was simply never the best class for any job, and groups (understandably) wanted to min-max.
The same thing happens right now in Mage Wars. If players want to play as a melee Mage, they will be more effective with a Mage that specializes purely in that (such as a Forcemaster). If they want a ranged Mage, there are also better options.
It would be one thing if the game actively supported switching roles mid-match. But most of the time, it's just not a good idea. Maybe if the Beastmaster had an ability that let her change weapons for free at the beginning of her action phase, things would be different. But I don't see that happening.
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What does the Johktari Beastmaster do better than the Straywood one? Especially if the Straywood Beastmaster has a Cheetah Speed and Hawkeye in his spellbook. What does the Johktari Beastmaster uniquely bring to the game?
1) She does not have to cast Cheetah Speed or Hawkeye on herself (presuming that she wants either of these abilities). This saves her mana and time (quick actions), and eliminates the possibility of having these abilities a) removed via dispels, or b) causing the payment of upkeep when she is in range of a monolith.
2) She does not lose spell book points for including these two spells when not to be cast on other Creatures.
3) She is the better suited to using bows than any other Mage. Having a bow equipped gives her the option of a "free" ranged attack with a +1 attack die (not counting the cost of the bow, which might be argued as being minimal compared with the costs of making multiple ranged spell attacks instead), if she chooses not to use her action marker to move.