Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Wise fool on April 28, 2014, 08:07:42 PM
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Howdy! I'm new to the game and new to the boards, but I'm definitely hooked on MW! Even though I've played a total of 3 games, I thought I'd take the opportunity to shoot my big mouth off. Seriously though, I love the amount of discussion this game generates.
The contrarian in me wants to find uses for cards that are maligned, and I had a thought about seedling pod. The knock against them is they don't generally live long enough to earn back the mana you burned in creating them. To which I say... so what? You'd burn 2+2 mana on a block to stave off an attack on your mage, but you won't spend a measly two mana (2 with a leaf ring) on a spell that may save you some mana in the long run and in exchange you might get to summon a creature on a later turn (a full action) for what cost you a quick action? If my opponent is wasting time stepping on seedling pods that's time they're not stepping on my mage. Sure, there's the psychological pain of losing the mana that stacks on them if it doesn't make it to round 3, but isn't that really just bait? And if they're not squashed, you've traded a quick action for a full round action if you do manage to summon something. This is just an idle theory for now (one which I plan to test next chance I get).
Just wanted to say, I think this is a really great forum. I've never seen the game of Go compared to another board game before, nor have I seen such in an in depth comparison involving the Art of War with another board game. I hope Mage Wars continues to prosper in the future.
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A Seedling Pod doesn't take attacks from Fireball, Hurl Boulder, Adramelech's primary attack, etc. They take attacks from Sweeping or from your opponent moving creatures into position (and using the quick action to hurt your mana supply).
That's a huge difference.
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I understand Seedling Pod as a mana generator, which beats other passive mana generators in its cost.
Spawnpoints/Familiars cost around 10+
[mwcard=MW1Q22]Moonglow Amulet [/mwcard]costs 6
[mwcard=MW1J13]Mana Flower [/mwcard] and [mwcard=MW1J12]Mana Crystal [/mwcard]cost 5
[mwcard=MW1E20]Harmonize [/mwcard]costs 4
[mwcard=DNJ08]Seedling Pod [/mwcard]costs 3
Seedling Pod might be an intersting early throw-down if your Druid opening strategy for the first turns has 3 spare mana - maybe 4 but not 5.
Other than being a possible filler in an already tight opening, I also don't see a use for them.
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Here's my take on seedling pods: They are an excellent way to avoid wasting actions.
As a druid, I find that I sometimes have more actions than I know what to do with. On any other mage, you might deal with this by banking an enchantment for later; seedling pod is an alternative way to ensure that extra actions are not wasted.
The other advantage of the seedling pod is that they allow you to delay making a decision. If you aren't sure what to cast, just cast a seedling pod and you can decide later after you have seen what your opponent does. In the early game especially, it can be difficult to know what to go for. By planting seedling pods, you can delay choosing a strategy until you know what you are up against, and at that point you will be able to use the actions that you banked earlier.
Essentially, seedling pods are a way to bank actions for future use.
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Here's my take on seedling pods: They are an excellent way to avoid wasting actions.
As a druid, I find that I sometimes have more actions than I know what to do with. On any other mage, you might deal with this by banking an enchantment for later; seedling pod is an alternative way to ensure that extra actions are not wasted.
The other advantage of the seedling pod is that they allow you to delay making a decision. If you aren't sure what to cast, just cast a seedling pod and you can decide later after you have seen what your opponent does. In the early game especially, it can be difficult to know what to go for. By planting seedling pods, you can delay choosing a strategy until you know what you are up against, and at that point you will be able to use the actions that you banked earlier.
Essentially, seedling pods are a way to bank actions for future use.
I'm not sure they're better than Enchantments in this regard, simply because you can reveal an enchantment as soon as the situation changes but must wait three turns with a Pod.
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He didn't state they were better, he stated they performed a similar function. It does allow you to bank actions and can actually make those actions more efficient, but you do have to wait on the payoff. In a game this fast paced, that wait is usually not ideal for your main strategy. Thus, they are generally best suited for when you have nothing better to do, like ACG said.
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I haven't created my Druid book yet, but I think that Seedling Pots can be great for building "a great forest of death", which I plan to do.
I don't really care if opponent attacks them - as people mentioned above, he's giving me more time to react and to do other things. I don't know how will it all work, though, as my favorite game style is rush-and-kill and I really afraid that Druid will be too easy to kill before her garden comes to life.
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I've played a couple of games now as the druid and unless I am missing something terribly (which is likely) I find the seedling pods to be a great addition to an already versatile mage.
Using Tatatree speeds up the process of getting 3 mana on them and typically I am doing so much more to get the opponent's attention that they ignore the pods until they are popping with death!!
I've also used them to great effect as bait....either my opponent has to come within range to attack them, placing themselves in an ideal zone for me to bring the pain or let them just build and build!!
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I've played a couple of games now as the druid and unless I am missing something terribly (which is likely) I find the seedling pods to be a great addition to an already versatile mage.
Using Tatatree speeds up the process of getting 3 mana on them and typically I am doing so much more to get the opponent's attention that they ignore the pods until they are popping with death!!
I've also used them to great effect as bait....either my opponent has to come within range to attack them, placing themselves in an ideal zone for me to bring the pain or let them just build and build!!
This guy gets it. Seedling Pods can quickly overwhelm an opponent who doesn't try to stop them, and I think they really make the most out of the Thornlashers and mesh well with the Druid's themes.
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I've played a couple of games now as the druid and unless I am missing something terribly (which is likely) I find the seedling pods to be a great addition to an already versatile mage.
Using Tatatree speeds up the process of getting 3 mana on them and typically I am doing so much more to get the opponent's attention that they ignore the pods until they are popping with death!!
I've also used them to great effect as bait....either my opponent has to come within range to attack them, placing themselves in an ideal zone for me to bring the pain or let them just build and build!!
Interesting ideas. I haven't played a Druid much yet but I'll have to keep this in mind.
This guy gets it. Seedling Pods can quickly overwhelm an opponent who doesn't try to stop them, and I think they really make the most out of the Thornlashers and mesh well with the Druid's themes.
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I must admit that I'd sort of dismissed the seedling pods out of hand on my first reading. My previous druid builds have always used the vine tree instead. This conversation has prompted me to try a new samara tree/seed pod spam strategy and see how it fares.
I guess the first hurdle is ensuring that the samara tree/druid has enough vine markers to spread the seed pods around. I guess packing a vinewhip staff and/or a vine tree too would be pretty important in such a build.
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I consider Druid with Seeling Pods as weak.
1) I can easily avoid the zones with seedling pods, if i want to.
2) It takes too long to spawn something with the pods. (Seeding the pod in first round, three more rounds for mana) ... and then the Seeling Pod is in a zone, where a spawned plant is maybe useless.
I cannot think of one of my builds, that could lose to a Seedling Pod Druid :)
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I guess the first hurdle is ensuring that the samara tree/druid has enough vine markers to spread the seed pods around. I guess packing a vinewhip staff and/or a vine tree too would be pretty important in such a build.
I prefer Samara Tree in the center. Yes, your tree is the open. But you save the vine markers for summoning things other than seedling pods. Your tree can deploy pods to 5 potential zones without using vine markers at all. I have tried Samara Tree in the corner but I never had as many vine markers as I needed. If you are going for Samara Tree in a corner then you might need a Vine Tree or Vinewhip Staff to get more vine markers going.
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I consider Druid with Seeling Pods as weak.
1) I can easily avoid the zones with seedling pods, if i want to.
2) It takes too long to spawn something with the pods. (Seeding the pod in first round, three more rounds for mana) ... and then the Seeling Pod is in a zone, where a spawned plant is maybe useless.
I cannot think of one of my builds, that could lose to a Seedling Pod Druid :)
I strongly disagree.
1) Druid has some of the best zone control in the game so she is excellent at forcing her opponent to go where she wants. Try avoiding zones with Seedling Pods when a druid has them spreading all over the arena.
2) It doesn't take long at all for the pods to get going. With tataree pumping up the pods they reach 3 mana in no time. (If tataree didn't exist then I would agree and say the pods are too slow.)
I don't like this mindset that Vine Tree > Samara Tree. Both trees are equally viable. They just require different play styles and spellbook designs to be effective. If you want to be super aggressive and focus on creatures then I would say choose Vine Tree. If you want to play a more positional, methodical game that utilizes a lot of conjurations then I would say choose Samara Tree. Vine Tree is unsurprisingly the more popular option because it is easy to overlook the benefits of Samara Tree. Seedling Pods save actions, which can be just as valuable as mana.
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Huh both the Druids I play against are Vine Tree builds. I'm sorta tempted to try a Seedling Pod build now. Tataree now that I actually look at the card seems very useful over all.
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You clearly haven't played enough games with Seedling Pod Druids that know what they are doing then.
1) Druid has some of the best zone control in the game so she is excellent at forces her opponent to go where she wants. Try avoiding zones with Seedling Pods when a druid has them spreading all over the arena,
2) It doesn't take long at all for the pods to get going. With tataree pumping up the pods they reach 3 mana in no time. If a plant is in a bad zone you can use thornlashers to direct enemy creatures where you want them to go.
I don't like this mindset that Vine Tree > Samara Tree. Both builds are equally viable. They just require different play styles and spellbook designs to be effective.
to 1) I dont care about seedling pods, if a druid uses them. I just kill attack the druid. The game is usually over before these pods can do anything, thats really threatens my forces. On top of that, my forces can easily kill any seedling pod while advancing to the enemy mage.
to 2) Tataree ... the butterfly that dies 1 round after summoned with an unavoidable attack? You mean that thing? *g*
The thornlashertrick is more effective then used with Vinetree, because you can spawn them where _you_ want and not where your seedling pods have been planted 3 rounds ago...
I would like to play against your Druid sometimes. Octgn is what you need :)
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The 2 trees has equal stats.
Because I don't value the cantrip for the pods very high, I would any day of the week prefer vine tree for 2 mana more for the extra vine markers when needed, and the ability to summon creatures directly when its needed.
I don't necessarily dislike the seedling pod strat combined with the tree in NC, but I would just pay 2 more mana so when pods are no longer a viable play, then you have more options with the vinetree.
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The 2 trees has equal stats.
Because I don't value the cantrip for the pods very high, I would any day of the week prefer vine tree for 2 mana more for the extra vine markers when needed, and the ability to summon creatures directly when its needed.
I don't necessarily dislike the seedling pod strat combined with the tree in NC, but I would just pay 2 more mana so when pods are no longer a viable play, then you have more options with the vinetree.
I my mind the main thing that makes the comparison of one better than the other is that Vine Markers hinder which once spread across the board can be quite a nuance in themselves and then they can be popped it whatever is best for situation at that given time vs. either waiting the 3 rounds or trying to pump them with a fragile Tataree that gets taken out real quick any time I have brought one out.
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Huh both the Druids I play against are Vine Tree builds. I'm sorta tempted to try a Seedling Pod build now. Tataree now that I actually look at the card seems very useful over all.
I have tried both trees and they weren't lying when they said each tree comes with its own unique style of play. Certain cards, like Tataree, are weak with a vine tree but very strong with samara tree.
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You clearly haven't played enough games with Seedling Pod Druids that know what they are doing then.
1) Druid has some of the best zone control in the game so she is excellent at forces her opponent to go where she wants. Try avoiding zones with Seedling Pods when a druid has them spreading all over the arena,
2) It doesn't take long at all for the pods to get going. With tataree pumping up the pods they reach 3 mana in no time. If a plant is in a bad zone you can use thornlashers to direct enemy creatures where you want them to go.
I don't like this mindset that Vine Tree > Samara Tree. Both builds are equally viable. They just require different play styles and spellbook designs to be effective.
to 1) I dont care about seedling pods, if a druid uses them. I just kill attack the druid. The game is usually over before these pods can do anything, thats really threatens my forces. On top of that, my forces can easily kill any seedling pod while advancing to the enemy mage.
to 2) Tataree ... the butterfly that dies 1 round after summoned with an unavoidable attack? You mean that thing? *g*
The thornlashertrick is more effective then used with Vinetree, because you can spawn them where _you_ want and not where your seedling pods have been planted 3 rounds ago...
I would like to play against your Druid sometimes. Octgn is what you need :)
Really? The game is over before the pods get to do anything? How short are your games? 8 rounds? Also, time you spend targeting tataree and seedling pods is less time you are taking to develop in the beginning. Sure, tataree dies with an unavoidable attack, but who really wants to waste an entire attack to kill a cheap little butterfly? Also, do you really want to be wasting time attacking pods? Don't you think that will slow you down even just a little? If you do that you are doing what the druid wants you to do... ignore your own ideas and try to deal with the opposition. Sure, you can spawn Thornlashers wherever you want with vine tree. Same with samara tree. With a samara tree in the center it can deploy a seedling pod to five different zones. This can help if you don't have vine markers to extend to those zones. Keep in mind the druid has excellent conjurations in addition to excellent creatures. Think of it this way. You typically use your vine markers with summoning creatures and then your seedling pods can cast cheap, annoying conjurations like tanglevine, stranglevine, bloodspine walls, nightshade lotus, and corrosive orchid. In the end your seedling pods act sorta like vine markers anyway. They take a little longer to payoff but combining them with vine markers expands your versatility and options. You can cover more ground. The sacrifice is that you can't cover ground as quickly as you can with vine tree.
(Also I edited my first response because the first thing I said was a dick move. I didn't mean to be a dick, I just get really passionate about this sorta stuff.)
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Just wondered why one would use [mwcard=DNC17]Tataree[/mwcard] instead of a standard mana producer like [mwcard=MW1J13]Mana Flower[/mwcard].
Mana Flower costs less and channels mana which can be used on everything.
Tataree costs more and produces mana which can only be used on plants. Also I think he is easier to destroy.
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Just wondered why one would use [mwcard=DNC17]Tataree[/mwcard] instead of a standard mana producer like [mwcard=MW1J13]Mana Flower[/mwcard].
Mana Flower costs less and channels mana which can be used on everything.
Tataree costs more and produces mana which can only be used on plants. Also I think he is easier to destroy.
Tataree gives you an action marker.
This is more important than 1 might think.
besides the obvious use of speeding up pods.
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Mr. Saucy (and everyone else advocating for Samara Tree builds), just what advantage do you think Samara Tree has over Vine Tree? I'm honestly curious, since the only reason I would use a Samara is if I wanted to shoot myself in the foot.
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Tataree is also an amazing guard.
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Well, he has the "Pest" trait 8)
Pest
A small nuisance creature that cannot hinder enemies.
Enemy creatures may ignore a Pest that is guarding to make a melee attack against another target.
Tataree is also an amazing guard.
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So this conversation prompted me to try a seedling pod/samara tree druid build just to see if I had been missing a trick. I had mixed success.
I tried one build that stocked 6 copies of the seedling pod and the samara and I played against a Forcemaster and I got beat pretty bad. Without the obstruction of the vines and the fact that the seedling pods don't obstruct movement, the Forcemaster closed me down pretty fast and once she was on me, I had too much mana invested in the seed pods to be able to mount an adequate defense. Although I could put plenty of pods out onto the board, without having extra vine markers, I found it difficult to position those seedling pods optimally.
I went back to the drawing board and instead built a book using both Samara Tree and Vine Tree. This second build worked much better. I put both trees down on the first turn, confusing the hell out of my opponent (a variant of the Watergate Wizard build). After that I managed to run a pretty effective control strategy with the Samara Tree and my Druid's quick cast pumping out a seed pod each every turn and my vine tree giving a nice amount of positioning control. Mana wasn't too limiting (Druid usually used full action on Meditaton amulet) and I could always deploy a creature each turn using the Vine Tree's casts even if I didn't have a seed pod ready. Despite a couple of early bumps I eventually managed to overwhelm the wizard. From round 6 onwards, there was always at least 5 seedling pods on the board at the start of the turn. By the end of the game I had too many actions to know what to do with each turn.
I did enjoy this build immensely but it did take a bit to get it working nicely. I guess I have been convinced that the Samara Tree/Seed Pods do have their utility but I'm not ready to ditch the vine tree yet. Without the Vine Tree, seed pod positioning is quite difficult unless you're willing to put your Samara tree in one of the central zones which is pretty ballsy and asking for trouble (particularly if you've treebonded with it).
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Well, he has the "Pest" Trait.
Wow, never thought of Pest having that rule. Shit I have played all Pest creatures wrong...
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The problem here is that the Samara Tree brings *one* thing to the table that the Vine Tree doesn't: Seedling Pods become Cantrips. The Vine Tree can cast Seedling Pods as well, so if you're thinking of using a Pod build, just pack six of them and use them with the Vine Tree instead. Six total Pods should be plenty for most games; you can only have six out at a time anyway, even with the Samara's Cantrip ability.
Now, I could see playing with both trees working in some builds, but this is more about making the Samara Tree viable on its own. (And personally, if I were going two spawnpoints, it would be Vine Tree + Battleforge anyway. Much better combo, well worth the +4 Spellbook points.)
The Samara Tree just doesn't compare. It's a crap card, at best used as a lesser partner to an already-played Vine Tree.
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The problem here is that the Samara Tree brings *one* thing to the table that the Vine Tree doesn't: Seedling Pods become Cantrips. The Vine Tree can cast Seedling Pods as well, so if you're thinking of using a Pod build, just pack six of them and use them with the Vine Tree instead. Six total Pods should be plenty for most games; you can only have six out at a time anyway, even with the Samara's Cantrip ability.
You're right, I also can't think of a way for the Samara tree to work effectively on its own without a Vine tree for positioning support. However, once I had the Samara tree in my build I found I became very spam happy with the seed pods and, whilst you're right that I couldn't have more than six on the board at any one time, I did make very good use of the Cantrip ability provided by the Samara tree. By the end of the game I was casting at least two seed pods a turn (to replace ones that had deployed or had been destroyed) and, whilst I felt this strategy worked nicely, it took a long time to finally kill the wizard (his cheap access to arcane gave him quite a few tricks that delayed my being able to pin him down). The game must've lasted around 15 rounds and I think I must've cast seed pod at least 20 times.
This strategy just wouldn't be possible without having the Samara tree in the mix. Whether this Druid could beat my previous build using just the vine tree is difficult to say. Certainly my vine tree only build can play much more aggressively but I've never seen anything as good for raw output as the Samara and Vine tree combo build once it has its factory up and running.
Now, I could see playing with both trees working in some builds, but this is more about making the Samara Tree viable on its own. (And personally, if I were going two spawnpoints, it would be Vine Tree + Battleforge anyway. Much better combo, well worth the +4 Spellbook points.)
I usually don't tend to run much equipment for the Druid to justify a triple-cost battleforge. Most of the armour items can be replaced with cheaper enchantments for the Druid (Rhino hide or Barkskin). Occasionally, I might run a Veteran's belt (sucking up the triple war school cost) as it can work nicely with her Cantrip Barkskin armour. But they are sufficiently cheap that I don't feel the need to have a Battleforge pumping out the mana for me. At least for my builds, I am rarely limited by actions for the Druid so I don't mind using my quickcast to equip the odd bits of equipment I do have (Leaf Ring etc.).
The Samara Tree just doesn't compare. It's a crap card, at best used as a lesser partner to an already-played Vine Tree.
I'm not sure I agree about the Samara Tree being crap. Yes, I tend to see the Vine Tree as a 'must have' for the Druid and I can't really imagine a competitive Druid without having that one in the spell book. Samara tree certainly isn't that but I don't think that makes it 'crap'. To me a 'crap' card is one that I can't ever imagine putting in a spellbook and that, if I were to do that, it would handicap me. I have used the Samara tree (with the maximum number of seed pods) for some builds and I have been successful with it. When I have used the tree, I have rested heavily on the Cantrip traits of the seed pods and my strategy would not have worked without it.
I guess time will tell if my local meta gets used to my combo Druid and managed to form a successful counter to it but for now it is taking down tournament-quality builds.
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Mr. Saucy (and everyone else advocating for Samara Tree builds), just what advantage do you think Samara Tree has over Vine Tree? I'm honestly curious, since the only reason I would use a Samara is if I wanted to shoot myself in the foot.
1) If you don't use a vine marker during a round it is doing nothing (other than allowing you to reach further with your spreading vines ability). But if you don't use a seedling pod during a round it continues to channel and becomes more powerful as the game goes on. I can give an example. There was a game where I had a seedling pod in a zone but later the action moved away from that zone. I thought the seedling pod was useless. But then that pod reached 6 mana and I realized I could spend just 1 mana from my supply to deploy Etherian Lifetree (I was playing against a Necromancer so this ended up being a good idea).
2) Seedling pods work well if you want to go heavier on conjurations than normal, especially cheap conjurations like bloodspine wall, tanglevine, mana flower, etc. If you aren't big on conjurations and want to focus on creatures, which a lot of players understandably choose, then stick with vine tree.
3) Seedling pods can lead to "big" turns. For example, say a pod deploys a bloodspine wall (0-1 mana from your supply) while an adjacent pod spawns a thornlasher (0-4 mana from your supply) and then you use your QC to cast rouse the beast on the thornlasher. And after all of this action you still have your main action marker to perhaps meditate with meditation amulet, move into a better zone, summon a creature, stuff like that. Vine Tree doesn't offer "big" turns. Instead it offers consistency and speed.
4) As the earlier example demonstrates, seedling pods are excellent at saving actions. And there is plenty of evidence that actions are just as important a resource as mana.
5) Seedling pods maximize your aggregate channeling (your tree channels, your pods channel, and you channel).
6) This is the weakest argument but I think samara treed and seedling pods are "more fun" than vine tree, especially if you don't have to win to enjoy the game. Samara Tree and the pods really embrace the druid's themes, and if you are anything like me you enjoy playing thematically... maybe even when you realize it may not necessarily be optimal.
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But here's my argument: these are not examples where the Samara Tree have proven the better choice, MrSaucy. These are examples where using Seedling Pods could be, and have been, a perfectly viable strategy. I'm not arguing that point; I'm arguing that giving Seedling Pods the Cantrip trait (which, besides costing 2 less mana to bring out, is the *only* benefit the Samara Tree offers over the Vine Tree) is far, far less useful than being able to both spread Vine tokens twice as fast, and cast any Vine spell (*including* Seedling Pods).
I just cannot see how the possibility of casting *more than 6* Seedling Pods in a game is the more valuable option. No player should -ever- choose the Samara Tree over the Vine Tree. In addition to (so as to end up playing both), maybe.. But never, ever in place of the Vine Tree.
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Mr. Saucy (and everyone else advocating for Samara Tree builds), just what advantage do you think Samara Tree has over Vine Tree? I'm honestly curious, since the only reason I would use a Samara is if I wanted to shoot myself in the foot.
1) If you don't use a vine marker during a round it is doing nothing (other than allowing you to reach further with your spreading vines ability). But if you don't use a seedling pod during a round it continues to channel and becomes more powerful as the game goes on. I can give an example. There was a game where I had a seedling pod in a zone but later the action moved away from that zone. I thought the seedling pod was useless. But then that pod reached 6 mana and I realized I could spend just 1 mana from my supply to deploy Etherian Lifetree (I was playing against a Necromancer so this ended up being a good idea).
Vine markers do more than give you more reach with Spreading Vines if you don't use them in a turn.
They hinder enemy creatures (even if they are Elusive), and most importantly, give you tactical options (if your opponent thinks you might use them that turn, they're very useful as bluffs). The tactical options they give you should not be understated.
2) Seedling pods work well if you want to go heavier on conjurations than normal, especially cheap conjurations like bloodspine wall, tanglevine, mana flower, etc. If you aren't big on conjurations and want to focus on creatures, which a lot of players understandably choose, then stick with vine tree.
The list of conjurations that are plants but not also vines are as follows:
Mana Flower
Mohktari
Etherian Lifetree
Samara Tree
Vine Tree
Wall of Thorns
I will grant that being unable to cast Wall of Thorns with a Vine Tree does suck a little bit, but the strategy of WoT + Force Push/Jet Stream has so many well-known and easy counters to it that the lack of this card doesn't really negatively affect the Druid. I don't even put WoT in most of my books anymore since I never have the opportunity to cast it.
4 of them are trees (one being irrelevant to this conversation), but I don't see how casting any of these off of a Seedling Pod would be good in most circumstances, since you'd have to either devote a Seedling Pod to it entirely or cast it after the Seedling Pod is no longer valuable for tactical purposes.
Casting a Mana Flower from a Seedling Pod is a terrible, terrible thing to do. Whenever you do this you are essentially throwing away 3 mana for no good reason.
Mana Flower from Mage:
1: -5 (cost of Mana Flower)
2: -4
3: -3
4: -2
5: -1
6: 0 (Mana Flower breaks even)
7: 1 (Mana Flower makes a profit)
1: -3 mana (cost of Seedling Pod)
2: -3 (pod = 1)
3: -3 (pod = 2)
4: -3 (pod = 3) -> pod destroyed to cast Mana Flower -> -5 (cost of Flower -3 on Pod)
5: -4
6: -3
7: -2
8: -1
9: 0 (Mana Flower breaks even)
10: 1 (Mana Flower makes a profit)
Even if you consider the 1 mana from Samara Tree to be "free" (and you really shouldn't), you're still losing 2 mana on this.
For the other conjurations (the ones both plant AND vine), Vine Tree is the better option as you'll have more options on where to cast them on any given turn.
The only argument you could make would be for a Tree-heavy build that extensively utilizes Wall of Thorns...but I really don't see it.
3) Seedling pods can lead to "big" turns. For example, say a pod deploys a bloodspine wall (0-1 mana from your supply) while an adjacent pod spawns a thornlasher (0-4 mana from your supply) and then you use your QC to cast rouse the beast on the thornlasher. And after all of this action you still have your main action marker to perhaps meditate with meditation amulet, move into a better zone, summon a creature, stuff like that. Vine Tree doesn't offer "big" turns. Instead it offers consistency and speed.
4) As the earlier example demonstrates, seedling pods are excellent at saving actions. And there is plenty of evidence that actions are just as important a resource as mana.
These two are essentially the same point.
While what you said is true, it's not limited to Samara Tree builds. Vine Tree builds could easily have one or two Seedling Pods if the player wanted to bank an action for later.
5) Seedling pods maximize your aggregate channeling (your tree channels, your pods channel, and you channel).
While the amount you channel on a given turn is higher, your expenses are as well. It only gives you a profit over Vine Tree if you wait longer than 3 turns to pop a pod. And then it looks a tempting target to your opponent, especially if there wasn't much else the creature could do (for example, a hindered creature moving one zone toward your mage/tree and attacking the pod in the new zone). That hurts a lot more than losing a Vine Marker in the same situation.
6) This is the weakest argument but I think samara treed and seedling pods are "more fun" than vine tree, especially if you don't have to win to enjoy the game. Samara Tree and the pods really embrace the druid's themes, and if you are anything like me you enjoy playing thematically... maybe even when you realize it may not necessarily be optimal.
On the contrary, I think this is the best argument for using Samara Tree.
If you think it's fun, go for it. What I object to is saying that a Samara build is on par with or better than a Vine build when it gives you so many huge drawbacks for so few minor benefits.
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As I see it there are two standard options as druid:
1) vine tree + leaf ring
2) vine tree + samara tree + meditation amulet
To me there is no "vine tree vs samara tree" debate. The vine tree is integral to all druids, the samara is basically just there to provide a second spawnpoint. There is no "which one should I use?" Because the answer to that will always be vine tree. The real question is "what style of druid do I want to play?" Every style will include the vine tree, its function is too essential, but some will also include the samara tree. This first style utilizes leaf ring because your druid will likely be casting creatures, while the second opts for meditation amulet instead because your druid will likely not be casting creatures and have an open full action.
Ive tried both many times and I think I like the second option better. I like the feel of turning my druid into a generator and using my trees to do all the casting; but both are viable imo.
I havent tried a battleforge build yet, but i dont think the druid has enough equipment to justify it. Bforge is generically strong though so im sure it could work.
An underlying point to this might be the fact that its not a coincidence that med amulet was put in the set with the two mages both capable of more than 1 spawnpoint. Samara is the druids second spawnpoint, not to be in competition with the first.
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Well to each his own. I can see why people don't like Samara Tree. You guys have surely made a lot of great points. This is why I love this forum. But as far as seedling pods go I think they are a solid choice in any druid spellbook regardless of what tree you are using. After some consideration I think I will play Druid with vine tree but with some seedling pods anyways (at least 2, no more than 4).
(Also I have never actually used seedling pods to cast mana flowers. Definitely not. I realize that would be a terrible play. I was just listing things that you could cast.)
Now is Tataree completely useless when it comes to vine tree builds? Because to be honest his only benefit seems to be pumping up seedling pods.
And one last thing: if we get future druid cards that only have the plant subtype and not the vine subtype would you then consider using the samara tree? Togorah doesn't have the vine subtype but he is so expensive that I'm not sure if it matters. I mean you could give a seedling pod channeling and boost it with tataree until it could cast Togorah? Just a thought.
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An underlying point to this might be the fact that its not a coincidence that med amulet was put in the set with the two mages both capable of more than 1 spawnpoint. Samara is the druids second spawnpoint, not to be in competition with the first.
Yeah it isn't a coincidence at all. If anything the Necromancer and Druid are the only mages that can reap the benefits of meditation amulet. The only problem is that meditating prevents you from moving (this is a much bigger problem for the Necromancer if you are planning on sitting back with Cloak of Shadows)
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Well to each his own. I can see why people don't like Samara Tree. You guys have surely made a lot of great points. This is why I love this forum. But as far as seedling pods go I think they are a solid choice in any druid spellbook regardless of what tree you are using. After some consideration I think I will play Druid with vine tree but with some seedling pods anyways (at least 2, no more than 4).
I doubt you would need 4. 2 seems like plenty.
(Also I have never actually used seedling pods to cast mana flowers. Definitely not. I realize that would be a terrible play. I was just listing things that you could cast.)
o_O
Now is Tataree completely useless when it comes to vine tree builds? Because to be honest his only benefit seems to be pumping up seedling pods.
Not completely useless, but definitely not as good as a Harmonize (easy death to zone attack/Idol of Pestilence), but you could use both I suppose.
I had Tataree in my book for a while, but quickly dropped it as it died before making the mana back.
And one last thing: if we get future druid cards that only have the plant subtype and not the vine subtype would you then consider using the samara tree? Togorah doesn't have the vine subtype but he is so expensive that I'm not sure if it matters. I mean you could give a seedling pod channeling and boost it with tataree until it could cast Togorah? Just a thought.
If we get some good non-Vine plants I might consider it, though these hypothetical spells would have to be really good to make me even think of giving up Vine Tree's ability to quickly assault the enemy mage. (Using both wouldn't give me that either, since I'd be forced to use Meditation Amulet to get my mana back and I'd lose tempo anyway then).
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Casting a mana flower normally and casting it via seedling pod have the same cost, in both mana and time. Consider the cost to the caster:
3 mana for the pod + 5 mana for the flower; however, the mana from the pod pays some of the cost for the flower, so the the druid pays from her mana supply a total of:
3+2=5
or
4+1=5
or
5+0=5
(obviously, you would be wasting mana if you cast the flower on a pod with more than 5 mana).
As far as the amount of time to pay off the cost of the flower goes, the two situations are again identical. The pod's channeling is identical to the mana channeled by the flower as far as paying off the casting cost is concerned. By the fifth round, the total cost of the flower to the druid has been paid off either way.
If you need more channeling and have an extra seedling pod lying around, I see no reason not to turn it into a flower. The advantage to seedling pods is the sheer flexibility they give you in allowing you to delay your choice; if you start with a mana flower but your opponent goes aggro, it may hurt you; if you start with a seedling pod, you can turn it into a resource generator or an offensive conjuration/creature, depending on what your opponent does.
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This thread in general and ACG's post motivate me to look at my Druid book again and make me think about inserting some Pods into it. *I like* :)
No doubt about the superiority of the VineTree though.
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Is there anything to be said for the spellbook points that Samara Tree saves you by giving your Seedling Pods cantrip? Are there any spells besides Wall of Thorns that Seedling Pods can cast but Vine Tree cannot?
I would like to think there is some reason that Samara Tree was released alongside Vine Tree - know what I'm saying? It can't be worse than Vine Tree in every situation; I have more faith in the playtesters than that. Maybe one of them could chime in?
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Casting a mana flower normally and casting it via seedling pod have the same cost, in both mana and time. Consider the cost to the caster:
3 mana for the pod + 5 mana for the flower; however, the mana from the pod pays some of the cost for the flower, so the the druid pays from her mana supply a total of:
3+2=5
or
4+1=5
or
5+0=5
(obviously, you would be wasting mana if you cast the flower on a pod with more than 5 mana).
As far as the amount of time to pay off the cost of the flower goes, the two situations are again identical. The pod's channeling is identical to the mana channeled by the flower as far as paying off the casting cost is concerned. By the fifth round, the total cost of the flower to the druid has been paid off either way.
If you need more channeling and have an extra seedling pod lying around, I see no reason not to turn it into a flower. The advantage to seedling pods is the sheer flexibility they give you in allowing you to delay your choice; if you start with a mana flower but your opponent goes aggro, it may hurt you; if you start with a seedling pod, you can turn it into a resource generator or an offensive conjuration/creature, depending on what your opponent does.
You equal the channeling of the pod with the increased channeling to the mage provided by the flower.
Im fine with that.
But you forget that you pay 3 mana + 5 mana for your combo.
Flower only costs you 5 mana only.
So your down 3 mana, or it takes you additional 3 rounds to break even.
The pod doesn't cover the cost of the mana flower because you are missing out on the extra channeling from the flower in the first place.
going mana flower with pod = doom. Except in the rare case where somebody runs heavy heavy mana denial on you, and still I consider it a bad move. 8 rounds to break even is just not worth casting it in the first place.
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Ah, true. That's a bummer. I can still see some use of throwing a [mwcard=DNJ08]Seedling Pod [/mwcard] into NC in round2, later deciding if it becomes a [mwcard=DNW01]Bloodspine Wall [/mwcard] or [mwcard=DNC21]Thornlasher [/mwcard] or [mwcard=DNC10]Raptor Vine [/mwcard] or [mwcard=MW1J22]Tanglevine [/mwcard]...sth like that.
edit: The more I think about it, the more I feel that Pod's are actually a quite interesting option to be spammed by a VinetTree - simply because they are cheap. I <3 cheap.
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Casting a mana flower normally and casting it via seedling pod have the same cost, in both mana and time. Consider the cost to the caster:
3 mana for the pod + 5 mana for the flower; however, the mana from the pod pays some of the cost for the flower, so the the druid pays from her mana supply a total of:
3+2=5
or
4+1=5
or
5+0=5
(obviously, you would be wasting mana if you cast the flower on a pod with more than 5 mana).
As far as the amount of time to pay off the cost of the flower goes, the two situations are again identical. The pod's channeling is identical to the mana channeled by the flower as far as paying off the casting cost is concerned. By the fifth round, the total cost of the flower to the druid has been paid off either way.
If you need more channeling and have an extra seedling pod lying around, I see no reason not to turn it into a flower. The advantage to seedling pods is the sheer flexibility they give you in allowing you to delay your choice; if you start with a mana flower but your opponent goes aggro, it may hurt you; if you start with a seedling pod, you can turn it into a resource generator or an offensive conjuration/creature, depending on what your opponent does.
You equal the channeling of the pod with the increased channeling to the mage provided by the flower.
Im fine with that.
But you forget that you pay 3 mana + 5 mana for your combo.
Flower only costs you 5 mana only.
So your down 3 mana, or it takes you additional 3 rounds to break even.
The pod doesn't cover the cost of the mana flower because you are missing out on the extra channeling from the flower in the first place.
going mana flower with pod = doom. Except in the rare case where somebody runs heavy heavy mana denial on you, and still I consider it a bad move. 8 rounds to break even is just not worth casting it in the first place.
You're right. I forgot to take that into account.
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Casting a mana flower normally and casting it via seedling pod have the same cost, in both mana and time. Consider the cost to the caster:
3 mana for the pod + 5 mana for the flower; however, the mana from the pod pays some of the cost for the flower, so the the druid pays from her mana supply a total of:
3+2=5
or
4+1=5
or
5+0=5
(obviously, you would be wasting mana if you cast the flower on a pod with more than 5 mana).
As far as the amount of time to pay off the cost of the flower goes, the two situations are again identical. The pod's channeling is identical to the mana channeled by the flower as far as paying off the casting cost is concerned. By the fifth round, the total cost of the flower to the druid has been paid off either way.
If you need more channeling and have an extra seedling pod lying around, I see no reason not to turn it into a flower. The advantage to seedling pods is the sheer flexibility they give you in allowing you to delay your choice; if you start with a mana flower but your opponent goes aggro, it may hurt you; if you start with a seedling pod, you can turn it into a resource generator or an offensive conjuration/creature, depending on what your opponent does.
You equal the channeling of the pod with the increased channeling to the mage provided by the flower.
Im fine with that.
But you forget that you pay 3 mana + 5 mana for your combo.
Flower only costs you 5 mana only.
So your down 3 mana, or it takes you additional 3 rounds to break even.
The pod doesn't cover the cost of the mana flower because you are missing out on the extra channeling from the flower in the first place.
going mana flower with pod = doom. Except in the rare case where somebody runs heavy heavy mana denial on you, and still I consider it a bad move. 8 rounds to break even is just not worth casting it in the first place.
while this is true, I still think mana flower is a reasonable fallback option for a seedling pod that has been left behind. Mana flowers do best when they're away from the action. So if you have a seedling pod with 5 mana on it and the action has moved elsewhere you might as well convert it into a mana flower. However it's not a good first choice. basically you're paying 3 mana for the ability to decide what you want there later.
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while this is true, I still think mana flower is a reasonable fallback option for a seedling pod that has been left behind. Mana flowers do best when they're away from the action. So if you have a seedling pod with 5 mana on it and the action has moved elsewhere you might as well convert it into a mana flower.
QFT
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[...]So if you have a seedling pod with 5 mana on it and the action has moved elsewhere you might as well convert it into a mana flower. However it's not a good first choice.
In that situation, maybe you could use a vine marker in order to your seedling pod cast a creature where the action is now.
PS: Forget, seedling post can´t use vine markers
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Seedling pods cannot use vine markers. Your Mage and any Tree Spawnpoints she controls can use the vine markers to extend their range.
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Seedling pods cannot use vine markers. Your Mage and any Tree Spawnpoints she controls can use the vine markers to extend their range.
The [mwcard=DRUIDABILITYOUTLINE]Druid Ability Card[/mwcard] says any object you control, not just Tree...
Do the text on the [mwcard=DNJ08] Seedling Pod[/mwcard] ("may cast 1 plant wich targets its zone...") take precedence over it?
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The Druid ability card is quite full of text. Check the DVN Rulebook, it has a fuller version of the text. Her vine markers can only be used by her or her Tree Spawnpoints. Sorry for the confusion.
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The Druid card text is a simplification of the text found in the DvN rulebook. If you look in the rulebook, you will see the restriction Laddinface mentioned.
Even if that restriction wasn't in the rulebook, the Seedling Pod's ability would resolve before it had an opportunity to target a Vine Marker, so it is the same thing either way.
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Thanks for the clarification! :-[ :-[