Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: silverclawgrizzly on September 01, 2015, 12:08:15 PM
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I thought I'd give this it's own thread because I'd like to knock around ideas here. What would be some good ideas for a melee weapon that takes both the weapons and shield slot in your equipment?
Obviously a decent dice pool would be nice but here are some other thoughts I had:
Sweeping: Honestly this is a no brainer. I'd be amazed if the Barbarian didn't have a big beat stick of a weapon that attacks more than one opponent. A Barbarian Only weapon could even have it be the quick attack.
Bleed: What about a nasty little Nature weapon that bled opponents? Like a wicked spear?
Rot: For a Necromancer who doesn't use the book obviously. A dark scythe would be awesome.
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For the lack of strong light attacks a two handed lightsaber or sword with a heavy 4 or 5 roll attack and possible stun AND push would be awesome. This would help the priest a lot!
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A weapon that can Daze and Stun would also make a lot of sense! The big issue with 2 handed weapons is making them playable but not overpowered. We rarely see [mwcard=FWQ11]War Sledge[/mwcard] get played because of its expense. Do you think giving melee +1 or armor +1 would help this out?
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I like Bleed as an effect as well, but it is too easily healed off of your main target (enemy mage) and is completely useless against non-living and plant objects.
Scythe is a pretty awesome idea. It would have to do more than just Sweeping and Rot.
Let me explain:
Unfortunately, there's a precedent that will have to be followed regarding weapons. None of them roll more than 4 base dice. Your fundamental (which is not Novice for some reason) weapon is [mwcard=MW1Q18]Mage Staff[/mwcard]. 5 mana for a one-handed, 4 dice melee attack with a special feature (Reach). Contrast that with the ultimate, aggressive, mage-specific one-handed weapon [mwcard=FWQ04]Galvitar, Force Blade[/mwcard]. Which is 11 mana for 3 modes of attack (all 4-dice) and piercing 2 on the basic attack. It's power level practically defines the mage to the point that you could say "I'm playing Galvitar" to indicate that you're playing Forcemaster. The reason it's so powerful is because it only takes up one hand. Additionally, Galvitar belongs to the mage with the most prevalent access to position control making the full attacks much more frequently applicable.
There is one printed two-handed melee weapon: [mwcard=FWQ11]War Sledge[/mwcard]. By all accounts I read and hear, it is generally considered to be the worst weapon in the game. Why is that? I think it is because you can get a 4-dice attack on a one-handed weapon with a useful affix (such as [mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ06]Morning Star[/mwcard]) for much cheaper. The frequency with which you actually use the full attack for sweeping is significantly smaller and not worth the extra hand.
So the real question is...what makes the second hand worth it? More dice? More powerful abilities? Full action Sweeping doesn't cut it, but it might have cut it if you still got your Melee +X with the second attack or got Sweeping as an affix to the quick attack. I'm not exactly sure what would be more balanced and still worth considering for a two-handed weapon, but I would love to explore ideas with you.
I imagine that the Barbarian would have an ability called "massive strength" allowing him to use melee weapon full attacks as quick attacks or otherwise boost his effectiveness with weapons.
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The problem with two-handed is you have to give up your Wand - whether [mwcard=MW1Q08]Elemental[/mwcard] or [mwcard=MW1Q19]Mage[/mwcard] or [mwcard=DNQ09]Healing[/mwcard] or [mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ05]Dispel[/mwcard].
[mwcard=FWQ04]Galvitar, Force Blade[/mwcard] is probably the best weapon in the game for raw damage. Has a 4-dice quick attack with piercing, or can be Sweeping or Doublestrike as a full attack, and it's always Ethereal. And it's one-handed, so a Forcemaster can still hold a Wand.
[mwcard=MW1Q29]Staff of Asyra[/mwcard] already has Daze and Stun, and is Light-based to enable the Malakai Priest. I tend to alternate between Mage and Healing Wands with him, and I'd miss them if he were to use a two-handed weapon.
I'd probably have an issue with Armor +1 on a two-handed weapon, because thematically you're usually sacrificing armour/defenses in favour of a bigger weapon. Of course, right now there are no "shields" for the shield slot, and even Spiked Buckler doesn't provide Armor +X (although it does provide a defense and a counterstrike).
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I imagine that the Barbarian would have an ability called "massive strength" allowing him to use melee weapon full attacks as quick attacks or otherwise boost his effectiveness with weapons.
Or perhaps he could equip a (different) weapon in each hand (e.g. 2 weapon slots instead of a weapon and a shield), and can attack with BOTH as a single attack action. Consider attacking with both a [mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ06]Morning Star[/mwcard] and [mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ03]Eisenach's Forge Hammer[/mwcard] with the same attack action, which would be similar to your choice of Sweeping or Doublestrike.
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All good points.
To get sweeping or even tripple strike in a quick action would make sense thematically (people can run with a stick and fight. Look at Darth maul. This thing deals melee light damage and could also push the way I think of it) and the weapon more worth.
But still I agree missing a wand is a price. Maybe making it cheaper would be a way to make the twohander more attractive?
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Rot: For a Necromancer who doesn't use the book obviously. A dark scythe would be awesome.
Two handed Scythe with Frost damage because:
A) Chill of the Grave theme potential
B) Calling it an "Ice-Sickle" is fun.
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The only way 2-handed weapons will be viable is if they are slightly more powerful than a 1-handed weapon and an offhand piece of equipment combined. There are two reasons for this: 1. a 2-handed weapon is more risky to play than 2 separate pieces of equipment, because it is more likely to get targeted for destruction by your opponent. 2. 2-handed weapons lack the potential variety of mixing and matching 2 different pieces of equipment.
That's more or less the massive issue with War Sledge at the moment: it's takes up 2 equipment slots but is pretty much comparable to most 1-handed weapons.
At the very least, 2-handed weapons need to roll 1 more die for each attack (possibly 2), and possess some kind of great passive ability which might normally be seen on a wand/shield/etc.
For Example:
Claymore - 2 handed melee weapon
Cost - 14
Level - 2 War & 2 Holy
Attacks - 1) quick action - 5 dice, piercing +1, counterstrike 2) full action - 6 dice, piercing +1, sweeping
Abilities - any creature under level 4 that is damaged by this weapon's counterstrike becomes dazed.
That might be a tad too powerful, but you get the gist of it.
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Counter strike would be a bit too much I think. That's like giving your Mage a 5-dice damage barrier for "free."
(Yes, 14 mana is considerable but... 5 dice at everything that Melee attacks a Mage would nullify entire archetypes; plus it would be enhanced by Bear Strength, etc)
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Counter strike I don't know about, it is pretty nasty. Plus it'd be cooler on like some quick weapons like claw gloves or something.
I could see Stagger though.
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I don't think the question is about what would make a two-handed weapon powerful enough to be worth using, but rather how much mana is it worth to give up both hand slots. You are basically paying a premium cost with equipment slots, and that should be reflected in a discounted mana cost. If the discount is equitable, then it shouldn't matter how powerful the weapon is.
I personally believe the extra slot is worth about 3 mana. That means if [mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ06]Morning Star[/mwcard] was made two-handed, it would only cost 2 mana to cast. Seems a good trade to me. [mwcard=MW1Q14]Lash of Hellfire[/mwcard] would only cost 5, which again is a trade that I'd make.
If this was the case though, that would mean [mwcard=FWQ11]War Sledge[/mwcard] and [mwcard=FWQ04]Galvitar, Force Blade[/mwcard] were basically equivalent, and they are not. Galvitar's quick attack is clearly better, and I would argue that it's Full attack is better as well. Although, Daze does tend to be valued higher than Ethereal, the versatility of the choice between Sweeping and Doublestrike makes Galvitar superior to me. Not to mention the Cantrip Trait. I think it should be worth approximately 2 mana more than War Sledge before calculating the discount for the difference in item slots.
So, what if Arcane Wonders values the extra item slot at 2 Mana? It might not seem like much of a difference, but it actually would significantly reduce my enthusiasm to play two-handed weapons when we again look at converting the current weapons into that form. My guess is that the actual value of the item slot is somewhere between 2 and 3 mana.
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With Wizard's Tower, why even bother with a wand?
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I don't think the question is about what would make a two-handed weapon powerful enough to be worth using, but rather how much mana is it worth to give up both hand slots. You are basically paying a premium cost with equipment slots, and that should be reflected in a discounted mana cost. If the discount is equitable, then it shouldn't matter how powerful the weapon is.
I personally believe the extra slot is worth about 3 mana. That means if [mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ06]Morning Star[/mwcard] was made two-handed, it would only cost 2 mana to cast. Seems a good trade to me. [mwcard=MW1Q14]Lash of Hellfire[/mwcard] would only cost 5, which again is a trade that I'd make.
If this was the case though, that would mean [mwcard=FWQ11]War Sledge[/mwcard] and [mwcard=FWQ04]Galvitar, Force Blade[/mwcard] were basically equivalent, and they are not. Galvitar's quick attack is clearly better, and I would argue that it's Full attack is better as well. Although, Daze does tend to be valued higher than Ethereal, the versatility of the choice between Sweeping and Doublestrike makes Galvitar superior to me. Not to mention the Cantrip Trait. I think it should be worth approximately 2 mana more than War Sledge before calculating the discount for the difference in item slots.
So, what if Arcane Wonders values the extra item slot at 2 Mana? It might not seem like much of a difference, but it actually would significantly reduce my enthusiasm to play two-handed weapons when we again look at converting the current weapons into that form. My guess is that the actual value of the item slot is somewhere between 2 and 3 mana.
about the sledge and galvitar, you compare what can't be: one is reserved to the WL, the other to the FM. it can be a designer's choice to give a better weapon to one than the other.
I think your idea is good, to tell the mana-price of a slot, but you should compare un-reserved equipments or equipments reserved to the same mage.
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about the sledge and galvitar, you compare what can't be: one is reserved to the WL, the other to the FM. it can be a designer's choice to give a better weapon to one than the other.
I think your idea is good, to tell the mana-price of a slot, but you should compare un-reserved equipments or equipments reserved to the same mage.
I admit that my estimate of the extra item slot being worth between 2 to 3 mana is pure speculation and based more on simply thinking about what I would be willing to pay for giving up the slot than any actual comparisons or figures. If we took any of the one-handed weapons currently in the game and reduced their cost by 3 mana, I would absolutely be willing to give up the extra hand. However, if it was only reduced by 2 then I'd have to think about it and not all of them would make the cut. Thus, my gut feeling is that it's probably closer to 2 than 3, but still somewhere in between.
The discussion of War Sledge and Galvitar was kind of a tangent. I really do think that the difference in power is due to however they decided to round off the mana costs, but their comparison did not really have an impact on my hypothesized value of the item slot.
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I like the thinking Zuberi, though I wonder if you added back in the value of a single Quickcast vs. two Quickcasts and how nice it would be off of a Battleforge.
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I like the thinking Zuberi, though I wonder if you added back in the value of a single Quickcast vs. two Quickcasts and how nice it would be off of a Battleforge.
I did not, and that may be worth considering, but I don't think taking up the second slot is so much saving you a quickcast as it is preventing an additional quickcast. The only two-hander that currently exists is definitely not equivalent to having two separate items and thus is not saving you having to spend a separate quickcast. It's merely blocking it. Based on that, future items with the same kind of design should consider it a tax and have a reduced mana cost as a result. Even if the weapon gave more of a benefit, you are always going to be giving up the versatility of being able to choose a separate off hand item. Perhaps there could be some designed that are more of an action savings, but I'm having trouble thinking of one that wouldn't simply be a tax.
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I like the thinking Zuberi, though I wonder if you added back in the value of a single Quickcast vs. two Quickcasts and how nice it would be off of a Battleforge.
I did not, and that may be worth considering, but I don't think taking up the second slot is so much saving you a quickcast as it is preventing an additional quickcast. The only two-hander that currently exists is definitely not equivalent to having two separate items and thus is not saving you having to spend a separate quickcast. It's merely blocking it. Based on that, future items with the same kind of design should consider it a tax and have a reduced mana cost as a result. Even if the weapon gave more of a benefit, you are always going to be giving up the versatility of being able to choose a separate off hand item. Perhaps there could be some designed that are more of an action savings, but I'm having trouble thinking of one that wouldn't simply be a tax.
I think that has more to do with the design of existing 2-slot items (War Sledge, the bows, Packleader's Cowl) more than the value of the opportunity cost of the second slot. For instance, Packleader's Cowl could be valued based on Cloak slot alone since the Beastmaster doesn't really have another use for his helmet anyway. That, and it provides 2 purposes: a Defend-like spell (that doesn't cost an action!) and +1 Armor. Meanwhile, the Sledge would be a bad weapon even if it only took up one slot. And the bows are questionable - on the one hand, you don't really need an Elemental Wand if you can perform free ranged attacks with your weapon, but the fact they're full actions (e.g. can't move and shoot) nor equip a Wand of Healing or Mage Wand (of Teleport or Force Push to make up for the fact you can't move and shoot) makes the opportunity cost seem higher.
However, if there were a Staff that was a simple 4-dice weapon AND had a built-in wand (perhaps spellbind a level 1 attack spell that couldn't be swapped), that shouldn't have a mana discount because it's saving you an action of having to cast 2 Equipment to fulfill the 2 roles this 1 spell fills; in fact, I imagine it might cost a little extra to account for the saved action, even if it isn't quite as strong/flexible as Elemental Wand + Mage Staff.
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Your thoughts make me think of [mwcard=FWQ09]Sectarus, Dark Rune Sword[/mwcard]. Not only are you already able to equip Sectarus with a single action, but you are also able to get both an attack and a spell cast with a single action whenever you use it. This is even more powerful than a weapon/wand hybrid like you suggest, yet I still think changing it to be two-handed would be a penalty to the item rather than a benefit and worthy of a 2 to 3 mana discount. I definitely do not think making it two-handed would warrant making it more expensive.
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I think something that people might not be considering is the fact that any ability you can think of would already be factored into the mana cost of the item. Like with Sectarus, it's weapon stats (4 dice with Piercing +1) taken alone are probably only worth 4 or 5 mana, considering Vorpal Blade is 5 mana for 4 dice with Piercing +2. The other half of it's cost is for the ability to cast spells. This is going to be true of any item we can imagine. Whatever abilities it has, it will have to pay for those abilities in it's mana cost.
Then, on top of that, we are going to add the extra draw back of preventing the mage from using one of their other item slots. I can't see any way in which this is not a penalty and not worthy of a discount.
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I think Sectarus would have been a great candidate for a 2-handed weapon, since it fulfills 2 roles in a rather unique way for one action/equipment spell. Let's pretend it was 2-handed for a moment. Then if we were to split it up into a one-handed weapon and a familiar "wand" (shield slot) that said "when you hit with a Melee attack from a weapon, you may cast a curse on the defender," then the sum of mana for those 2 equipment spells should be less than the 2-handed Sectarus since Sectarus does exactly the same thing while saving you an action.
Alas, Sectarus is one-handed, so you're right: making it 2-handed (drawback = opportunity cost of lost equipment slot) should come at a mana reduction compared to the 1-handed version that is otherwise identical. But that's different than saying a 2-handed weapon that does the work of 2 other pieces of equipment should cost less than the sum of the mana costs of those 2 pieces of equipment.
In other words, if there was a 2-handed weapon that was literally Vorpal Sword + Mage Wand in one piece of equipment, it should cost more than 10, not less than 10, because it is functionally equivalent but saves you an action compared to casting those 2 equipments separately.
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The more I think about it, the more I feel a "dual wielding" barbarian would be better than two-handed weapons designed for the barbarian (which may or may not be available for use by other mages) that happen to synergize with his abilities (whatever they are). For instance, he might have a mage ability that reads:
- You may treat your (shield) equipment slot as a second (weapon) equipment slot; and
- As a full action, you may make (quick-action?) melee attacks with each of two equipped weapons.
Or, better yet, how about a Barbarian ability that allows dual-weilding but is also compatible with two-handed melee weapons (assuming they look a bit like War Sledge, as you'll see below):
- You may treat your (shield) equipment slot as a second (weapon) equipment slot; and
- You may use your Quick-cast to make a quick-action melee attack. You cannot perform an attack with the same name during your main action in the same round. (needs better wording; may or may not cost 1 mana, as it's similar to Arcane Zap)
The latter turns either the Barbarian's basic attack (on his mage card) OR a melee attack on a second weapon into something similar to the Wizard's Arcane Zap (except isn't ranged/ethereal; may or may not also cost 1 mana to do this). Or it allows 2 attacks with a single (two-handed?) weapon that has 2 different attacks on it (e.g. a quick-action attack and a full-action attack, like the [mwcard=FWQ11]War Sledge[/mwcard]'s "Quick Swing" and "Power Swing"). It also means, like the Wizard, he can use his activation to perform a full action, and still make a quick-action attack with his quick-cast. And it might encourage players to actually read the names of attacks on weapons and creatures. :D
Here's the exhaustive list of existing weapons with more than 1 attack:
- [mwcard=FWQ04]Galvitar, Force Blade[/mwcard] (not available to Barbarian since "Forcemaster only"
- [mwcard=FWQ11]War Sledge[/mwcard] (suggested ability might actually make this playable... but sadly it's "Warlord only" and not "War Mage only" like [mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ03]Eisenach's Forge Hammer[/mwcard]; may I suggest errata to make it "War Mage only" = Barbarian-compatible?)
- [mwcard=MW1Q31]Staff of the Arcanum[/mwcard] (odd choice thematically, but could "quick-cast" the quick attack plus make the full-action ranged attack in the same round, obviously at different targets)
- Heart of Gravikor (promo) (http://i.imgur.com/6ZHpk2N.png) (similar to Staff of the Arcanum, but more on-theme/school, and both attacks can target range 0)
So another two-handed weapon with both quick-action and full action attacks, plus maybe a few more efficient one-handed weapons (like [mwcard=MW1Q18]Mage Staff[/mwcard], [mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ06]Morning Star[/mwcard] and Vorpal Sword), would be nice to see to give a couple options that enable such an ability.
*10th edit?*
In other words, the reason I think Sectarus would make a good two-handed weapon example (see post above) is because it gives you a "2-for-1" in that you get something that would normally cost you a quick-cast when you use your main action for an attack. Unfortunately for the War Sledge, there is (currently) no way to use both its quick attack and full attack in the same round, so the fact it has both attack options doesn't make it as good as, say, having both a one-handed weapon and a wand (or Horn of Gothos or whatever) that can both be used in the same round. The Sweeping trait wants to do this, but it's too conditional (e.g. needs 2 targets in the same zone, and you can't move + use the Sweeping attack). Allowing the Barbarian to make both the quick AND full Sweeping attack in the same round would give that "2-for-1" that the War Sledge is otherwise missing, justifying it taking up both equipment slots (imho).
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You make a decent point iNano78. I have been looking at this basically just from one side. In light of your argument, let me rephrase my opinion in two parts.
First, a two-handed weapon should be cheaper than an identical one handed weapon. This is basically determining the value of the item slot itself, which I still maintain as somewhere between 2 or 3 mana.
Second, a two-handed weapon should be more expensive than two separate items which would grant the same abilities when combined. This is more determining the value of saving a quickcast than it is the value of the item slot, and I'm less opinionated as to what that should be.
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I don't know that I've ever equipped both a wand and a melee weapon. Maybe Wand of Healing on Warlord, but it's pretty rare. It seems more like an inconvenience than a significant drawback. I'd rate two handedness as a one mana discount for most melee weapons.
Bows, on the other hand, would often benefit from either a Mage Wand of Teleport or a backup melee weapon, so I feel like 2 or even 3 mana is more correct there. It seems context sensitive.
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I don't know that I've ever equipped both a wand and a melee weapon. Maybe Wand of Healing on Warlord, but it's pretty rare. It seems more like an inconvenience than a significant drawback. I'd rate two handedness as a one mana discount for most melee weapons.
Bows, on the other hand, would often benefit from either a Mage Wand of Teleport or a backup melee weapon, so I feel like 2 or even 3 mana is more correct there. It seems context sensitive.
With most mages, I almost always equip both a wand and melee weapon - or at least intend to. With Forcemaster, it's generally a Mage Wand (of whatever my Thoughtspore(s) isn't using). With Priest(ess), it is either Mage Wand or Wand of Healing. With Warlock (either) it's usually Elemental Wand (with Lash or Sectarus). With (either) Warlord, it's usually Elemental Wand - because Mage Wand pays triple - but I've also tried [mwcard=FWQ06]Horn of Gothos[/mwcard] (with no successes thus far). Even my Beatmasters pack Mage Wands for when needed (e.g. for Rouse the Beast or Call of the Wild). My Necromancer doesn't use a weapon, but he goes with Libro Mortuous and a Mage Wand (usually of Teleport, Force Push or Zombie Frenzy). The only mages that don't care about the second hand slot are ones that don't use weapons, like Druid (who uses a Mage Wand for Burst of Thorns or Defend) or Adramalech Warlock (if "kiting"). My Wizard generally has either one or two Wands equipped, so while not a weapon, he does sometimes have both hands full.
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That's interesting. I'll usually only play a melee weapon if I'm intending to spend significant Full Actions attacking, which means I'm playing aggressively. When I'm agro, I often find that I can't spare the tempo to cast a Wand when I could instead just cast the spell I'm going to attach: e.g. I play 4 Fireball in my spellbook instead of casting Elemental Wand of Fireball.
With Battle Forge the tempo question is a bit more forgiving in the late game because I'll run out of equipment, but at that point I'll (hopefully) be low on mana, and won't want to spend on a wand anyway.
Of course, part of that is that I like to play Wizard, and Wizard's Tower costs no tempo because you can activate it immediately after casting it.