Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spellbook Design and Construction => Topic started by: paradox22 on March 04, 2013, 02:36:06 PM
-
What is the best way to counter the new Force Master, and which mage do you think is best equiped to do so. I have my opinion, and I'll chime in, but first I'm curious to know what you guys think! Ready?....GO! :woohoo:
-
Although I haven't played with or against her yet, I think swarms will probably give her problems, especially flying swarms (Hawks and Bats), although she does have Mass Sleep (if she can afford to cast it). Mana denial would probably hurt her pretty badly too due to all of her upkeep cards.
I'm also not sure yet how well she will handle lock down builds. Getting hit with Cripples and Weaks plus things like Tanglevine and similar stuff may be a problem for her since she is so melee orientated and won't have too many creatures to watch her back and help her offense.
-
The biggest thing that stops her, at least while I am playing, is the swarm. Warlord and Beast Master are both very capable of doing so. Heck, even another Forcemaster casting three Psylocks is enough to be an annoyance to get in your way.
Or it could be dice. Dice are fickle mistresses.
-
I played her this morning for the first time. I used her base spellbook. Managing her mana was easier than I thought it would be, but my opponent didn't put enough pressure on her. I think if you pressure her early and don't let up you can force her into mana problems. She has the capability to defend herself but will not be able to mount as strong an offense. You should be able to chip away at her defense and eventually get to her. You be the one to dictate the terms of the engagement not her.
Establish a numbers advantage with creatures it shouldn't be difficult. This plays into both puting pressure on her and having more actions per turn.
Stack attacks with conditions. Since she is more or less a solo warrior all her actions are precious. If you can steal away some of her options with stuns, slams, cripples, dazes or even weakness to lower her damage output it will be huge.
Those are a few of my initial impressions.
-
I agree, a swarm build could have a devastating effect if managed properly. However, other weakness of the Forcemaster are her dealing with the "unavoidable" trait, unmovable, and non-living and/or psychic immune creatures and dont forget "da mana squeeze."
A build that will exploit "unavoidable" is a bad news for the Forcemaster (its even better if you can get Ranged and "unavoidable") as you directly negate her ability to defend. Now with said, that's what Forcefield is for, but Forcefield is quite pricey (2/10; Upkeep +2) and with the Stalker (Upkeep +1) and the Scimitar (Upkeep +1) likely to come out first it would be tough not to see a Forcefield foreshadowed. :whistle: Seeking Dispel that joint. :evil:
Now a Forcemaster build - what you got in that book eating at those 120 spell points? Mind Control (6), maybe a few Charm (2), a Forcefield (4), and more than a few Force moves pushing and pulling all over the place. Grab a few Skeletons to deal with the psychic enchantments, an Iron Golem that wont be controlled or pushed around, maybe a Whiling Spirit, maybe a Mana Leech. Whatever floats the boat.
But the Mana Squeeze... Man, you want to throw off a Forcemaster. Hit them with the Mana Siphon, (that 10 channel becomes 8 ) hit them with Mordoks Obelisk to offset some of what they save with the Psi Orb, and if you can manage it as well throw down the Suppression Orb. I had a buddy have to cancel his Forcefield and one of his Thoughtspores just to keep his Stalker alive and have it able to move. It was awesome, and he lost. :P
-
I haven't played against a forcemaster yet, and I've been torn between two potential strategies. One is just a bird and bobcat swarm or biggish creatures that force the forcemaster to stop/control/attack them as a sort of mana and action denial strategy. Leaning to the swarm but wanted to know if anyone had and opinion.
-
My best advice would be to focus on range attacks, unavoidable attacks, charge, status effects, dispels, and mana denial if you can pull it off. If all else fails, I guess you can try swarming her, but watch out for Mass Sleep. In my opinion, the main thing to worry about are her defenses, you just have to break those down and do consistent damage to her.
-
Falcon Precision. Falcon Precision. Falcon Precision. She is based on stacking defenses, unavoidable attacks cut right through it and forces her to crutch on her high end forcefield.
I feel like she has so many creature specific options that letting your mage carry the battle guts a lot of her options. Cant put a mage to sleep, cant charm or mind control a mage. she can keep pushing and pulling but with some cheetah speed and teleports you can deal with that.
She has no special counter against dealing with curses either. chains of agony, debuffs, ghoul rot, magebane, and so on... they are non attacks and go around her forcefield and defenses, and require her to invest a lot of mana to dispel while you restack more. Also Agonize takes the bite off of her hand to hand attacks and makes her force sword easy to let bounce off armor. Add in some burns and rots that she cant out run and you can melt her or at least cripple her to death.
Mark her for death and turn a slew of darkfenne bats loose on her. She doesnt have much to work with against rots, burns, ghoul rots, mage banes and crush (which anyone can run) stacking up 10 damage or so a round on her once you get it all on her.
I feel like its a reason that this set included sectarus+falcon precision+ring of fire, for anti forcemaster style warlock beatdowns.
-
The FM has a hard time dealing with Curses, simply due to action starvation. Even if she has enough dispels to constantly remove the Ghoul Rots and Agonies that you throw, she won't have the actions to do what she really wants to.
The FM has a tough time with flying creatures. She either has to use Knockdowns (3 mana, only hits one creaure) or Force Bashes (8 mana, hits 2, then she can sweeping strike) to even hit them. Therefore, any bird, bat, or angel deck will do well against her.
The Forcefield is incredibly efficient against small #s of strong creatures, but is useless against a swarm. Therefore, you either want to go all out swarm, or have a Dispel ready for her forcefield. Both seeking dispels and regular dispels are devastating against FF because it is such a high level spell that she can't afford to keep a ton of copies in her deck.
-
Stack attacks with conditions. Since she is more or less a solo warrior all her actions are precious. If you can steal away some of her options with stuns, slams, cripples, dazes or even weakness to lower her damage output it will be huge.
This is what I've seen so far. I think conditions are doubly effective against the FM.
-
From what I can tell preaty much the same approach to any other Beatdown style of play, loss of actions as people have been saying are what hurt the most. I have tuned the FM default deck and I am looking forward to testing it out here soon.
-
Stack attacks with conditions. Since she is more or less a solo warrior all her actions are precious. If you can steal away some of her options with stuns, slams, cripples, dazes or even weakness to lower her damage output it will be huge.
This is what I've seen so far. I think conditions are doubly effective against the FM.
I remembered the daze condition as giving -1 to defense rolls since this has rarely come up in our games. When we had our pregame review of the expansion prior to playing Monday, I almost had to change my shorts when I saw the -2 to defense for each daze condition on a creature.
On a side note this was my quickest game yet. We finished in just under 30 minutes. My impression is the Forcemaster is an all or nothing mage, meaning I think she will either win fairly easily or lose big. I'll be curious as I play more games involving her how long they last.
-
Stack attacks with conditions. Since she is more or less a solo warrior all her actions are precious. If you can steal away some of her options with stuns, slams, cripples, dazes or even weakness to lower her damage output it will be huge.
This is what I've seen so far. I think conditions are doubly effective against the FM.
I remembered the daze condition as giving -1 to defense rolls since this has rarely come up in our games. When we had our pregame review of the expansion prior to playing Monday, I almost had to change my shorts when I saw the -2 to defense for each daze condition on a creature.
On a side note this was my quickest game yet. We finished in just under 30 minutes. My impression is the Forcemaster is an all or nothing mage, meaning I think she will either win fairly easily or lose big. I'll be curios as I play more games involving her how long they last.
Yeah, I was kind of wondering if that's how she was going to play out. I think she may be a bit too one-dimensional for my tastes. She is extremely predictable which is a major drawback in this game, she doesn't have a lot of versitility in her build options, her stuff tends to be expensive with lots of upkeep, and her defenses have easy counters.
I'm not going to judge yet whether I think she's good or not because I haven't played her, but these are my concerns when I look at her.
-
I agree that her defenses can be easily countered if you build your spellbook appropriately. The question then becomes how many spell points are you willing to spend to counter one mage. Unavoidable attacks are good against any Mage, but you are going to need more against the Forcemaster than you will against the other mages. How many extra are you willing to include? The Forcefield is a great target for Dispel, but that's not the only enchantment she will be packing you will want to dispel. How many Dispels do you want to carry? That is why I think building an action advantage is the way to go. Time your Dispels right and things should go poorly for her. I think you'll still have to play smart though.
While any Mage can beat another some will have better matchups against the Forcemaster because they are more prone to do the things that give her problems.
-
I agree that her defenses can be easily countered if you build your spellbook appropriately. The question then becomes how many spell points are you willing to spend to counter one mage. Unavoidable attacks are good against any Mage, but you are going to need more against the Forcemage than you will against the other mages. How many extra are you willing to include? The Forcefield is a great target for Dispel, but that's not the only enchantment she will be packing you will want to dispel. How many Dispels do you want to carry? That is why I think building an action advantage is the way to go. Time your Dispels right and things should go poorly for her. I think you'll still have to play smart though.
While any Mage can beat another some will have better matchups against the Forcemaster because they are more prone to do the things that give her problems.
Well, that's kind of the thing, it doesn't seem like people will have to alter their builds at all really to give her a hard time. It certainly doesn't seem like they will have to dedicate many spell points to counter her specifically. As you said, people are already running things like Knockdown and unavoidable attacks, and now with the expansion there is going to be more cards running around that mitigate defenses like the Slam effects and Falcon Precision. I don't think people really need to add any more than they will already be running against other mages.
Also, she will be hit extra hard by Daze/Stun effects (which are WAY too easy to come by in this game IMO) because she is so melee focused and doesn't have a lot of options for versatility.
Then there is the predictability factor. Half of this game is trying to out think and outplay your opponent and being predictable is a great way to lose. I don't see many Forcemaster's surprising me in what they are running in their builds, or how they use those cards.
To me (someone who has yet to play the Forcemaster) it seems like good spellbooks are versatile and unpredictable (to some extent anyway), of which the Forcemaster seems like neither.
It'll be interesting to see how she plays out and I hope my fears are misplaced and she is able to hold her own in a competitive environment, but one-dimensional, predictable builds seem like a death-knell in this game.
-
I guess as far as modifying spellbooks goes I was primarily thinking of mine. I prefer to play defensively and win through attrition. I have a few expensive creatures, not exactly in the numbers to apply a lot of pressure or out action her. So I will have to adjust for her to be sure if I am to employ the tactics I think most effective. In short I'm going to have to improve my offensive capabilities, what with the best defense being a strong offense and all that.
-
The Forcemaster has a lot of power, but a huge amount of that power rests in a few cards.
Her main attack is Galvitar's doublestrike or sweep and "Agony" really does a number on that. Of course, armor helps a lot, too.
"Forcefields" and "Mind Controls" can be dispelled.
The default Forcemaster build in particular has a major weakness in a lack of counter magic -- only one dissolve and one dispel.
I second the "unavoidable attacks" recommendations above. I'm not so sure about mana denial, though. When I've played her, I have mana to spare; it's actions that are in short supply. Maybe it depends on how much your opponent uses Thoughtspores.
-
ok just my opinion but i think that the forcemaster is the most powerful mage by far and i will tell you why..................... First) The Forceblade: it has doublestrike and with bear strength that is soooo powerful. You roll 12 dice for each full attack! And if you Dissolve it, it comes right back! 2) The Forcefield: it gets past unavoidable and starts with 3 counters and gains 1 counter EACH turn. It's not Epic, so you can just replace it when destroyed. 3) Mind Control: takes control of any creature, it's cheap to cast, and can wipe out swarming when combined with the Mordok's Obelisk. Just run these x4 for an auto-win nearly every game.
OK now i know what your thinking, that the dispel gets past mind contol but with decoy and just plain guessing proves to be a powerful combo. I have played many games with her and the only thing that scares her is a deck meta'd JUST against her, and thats not practical. So thats what i feel.
-
First) The Forceblade: it has doublestrike and with bear strength that is soooo powerful. You roll 12 dice for each full attack!
Friendly note, I do believe melee + bonuses only work for the first strike. it's still 10 dice though.
-
First) The Forceblade: it has doublestrike and with bear strength that is soooo powerful. You roll 12 dice for each full attack!
Friendly note, I do believe melee + bonuses only work for the first strike. it's still 10 dice though.
That is true. Bear Strength only applies to the first attack if you double strike or sweep.
Things like Agony and Aegis (or both!) render the full round attacks pretty worthless sometimes, especially since they lack the "-2 Pierce" trait of the quick attack. So anything that debilitates attack dice combined even just a little armor really takes the wind out of her double strikes and sweeps.
-
So anything that debilitates attack dice combined even just a little armor really takes the wind out of her double strikes and sweeps.
I've found that the best tactic to counter her doublestrike is the gorgon archer's weak tokens + Agony. Granted, this is situational because you might not be playing a wizard, but it completely neuters her amazing melee potential. Your job, however, will be to keep the Force Master away from your Gorgon Archer and vice versa (force pull). Once your opponent figures out how devistating weak is vs. the forcemaster, they will priortize killing the Gorgon. Couple this with aegis plus some armor (as BaronZ said) and you should be quite frustrating to the forcemaster.
-
So anything that debilitates attack dice combined even just a little armor really takes the wind out of her double strikes and sweeps.
I've found that the best tactic to counter her doublestrike is the gorgon archer's weak tokens + Agony. Granted, this is situational because you might not be playing a wizard, but it completely neuters her amazing melee potential. Your job, however, will be to keep the Force Master away from your Gorgon Archer and vice versa (force pull). Once your opponent figures out how devistating weak is vs. the forcemaster, they will priortize killing the Gorgon. Couple this with aegis plus some armor (as BaronZ said) and you should be quite frustrating to the forcemaster.
Yep, Ive always assumed that its no coincidence that the picture of Mind Control is a Gorgon Archer. As if to say "this is one of the reasons to run this card".
Its also worth mentioning that Forcemaster is not particularly fond of Iron Golems either, what with them having heavy armor and being immune to 99% of her go-to tactics.
-
Yes, Iron Golems seem to be the most effective. Also try using Incantations like Perfect Strike and Battle Fury on the Mage Wand. She's got plenty in her arsenal to rip off anything attached to him.
I tried the Gorgons, but with their high cost, I couldn't keep them from being Mind-Controlled. My opponent just built up and waited until he had the Gorgons controlled or Charmed (granted he lost more than half his life in the process), then he cast Purify before beating me down with his sword and my Gorgons.
My opponent's version of Forcemaster is very defensive. He builds up mana to eliminate threats, and uses Teleport with Initiative when he has his answer ready. Therefore, sitting back and spamming Golems seem pretty effective... but outside that? Dunno... Play another Forcemaster? lol.
-
Its also worth mentioning that Forcemaster is not particularly fond of Iron Golems either, what with them having heavy armor and being immune to 99% of her go-to tactics.
-reads Iron Golem flavor text- ^.^ lulzy
-
The best way i have found to counter forcemaster is by going defensive, very defensive. I have played many games with the forcemaster and have found many ways to improve her but also that SHE IS BEATABLE. I had an argument about this last night but i proved it by losing to a very defensive wizard. So i conclude that her worst enemy is agony and slow defensive builds, at least for my build that is.
-
When I am playing her you could just concede. Then you do not have to play against her. :lol:
I will not mind. ;)
-
I thought I would just summon another Forcemaster to fight for me on turn 1. On turn 2 I summon a lazyboy to my opening zone with my quick cast action and a mini refrigerator full of Sam Adams Seasonal with my full action. Then just sit back and enjoy the duel.
-
Sam Adams seems to whisper in my ear....go ahead and let the four Iron golems surround you.....you can just cast repulse.....Dont forget to cast mind control on one of them.... :)
-
Don't listen to Sam, he always gives me bad advice! lol
He also whispered... your opponent spent 52 mana summoning iron golems??... hmm, I guess I can turn them into harmless rocks with a simple forcefield and nullify... now I've got till next week to take them down with my double striking sword... ...and they've all got upkeep +1... who needs mind control :P
-
After a bunch more games over the weekend, here's what I found:
Wall of Thorns trick is very effective!
Wizard-
Earth Wizards have the best chance of any mage to take down the Forcemaster. You can save Nullify for Bear Strength. Hurl Boulder can keep her Dazed so her huge attacks and Battle Furies miss. If she sets up the Battle Forge, save your Dissolves for Dancing Scimitar or her wands. Seeking Dispel/Invisible Fists on a stick can really wreck you! If the Forcefield combined with her Deflect is too much to punch through, then set up the Force Push/Wall of Thorns to eliminate the Charges and push her into your waiting Golems... She'll still get 2 cancels (3 with Scimitar) a turn... Or just Dispel it for one more mana than the wall combo. Keep your Golems grouped together, and effective group attack takes a full action and you can respond with Group Heal. It's much easier to Teleport her to your Golems. Most Forcemaster builds farm Battle Forge/Harmonize and Crystals the first two turns, this creates a devastating 3-card hand every round, and since she can play the "react" game and doesn't use mana for creatures she'll win the mana war every time. Don't be aggressive. It may seem like hitting her before she has a chance to build up would be best, but her defenses cost very little mana and her sword is stronger than your attacks. Try Teleporting forward one zone first round and cast Voltari Gate next to you. You can Harmonize and use it to spawn your Golems while you build your defenses and mana. Then you can Teleport her in on her initiative for a raze of attacks, then on your initiative you can Nullify her and follow up with a Tanglevine to prevent her from escaping or Teleporting out.
Fire wizards can use the same strategies unless she equips the Hauberk. You can also try summoning Gorgon Archers if you can keep the Mind Controls off them. Weak is super effective is she doesn't run Purify.
Air Wizards can ditch the Golems and Gate, saving your mana for a very aggressive solo lightning assault. As long as you can Dispel her Forcefields, you can win the attack war with Dazing unavoidable attack spells.
Beastmaster-
Spam the arena with creatures, but spellbind a Force Hammer to deal with Obelisk once you get a few creatures out. Keep your Pet Nullified and watch out for Mass Sleep. She will most likely only be running one, if any. You could try a Force Wave through a Wall of Thorns. Falcons are very effective because they are fast, easy to summon, and work well with the Wall of Thorns combo.
Priestess/Warlord-
Both of these mages are efficient at building a defensive stronghold and spamming range strikes. Use Wall of Thorns to take down the Forcefield and Dissolve her defenses. Ignore Charms and just guard and let her pay the upkeeps. You can summon more creatures. Save Dispels for Mind Control. Eliminate Obelisk ASAP. Late game, the Forcemaster may destroy the walls and decide not to pay the upkeep on Forcefield just to replace it with a new one. If you're out of Dispels, then Guard is your best friend! As she spends attacks taking down your minions, you can punch through her defenses to set up your final attacks.
Warlock-
My versions of the Warlock have all been aggressive builds: Lord of Fire buddy, Werewolf, Solo, etc.
So far, I've had No success against the Forcemaster. Lord of Fire will get Mind Controlled even with a Nullify (She can Seeking Dispel/Mind Control in the same action). Werewolf dies too fast. And I haven't been able to keep up with her doublestrike and defenses when I run solo. There are too many items to Dissolve. Dancing Scimitars and Hauberk and Elemental Cloaks keep wrecking me. Agony gets Dispelled right away. The low mana production of Warlock simply cannot keep up with Forcemaster's arsenal. I tried a slower approach, building up my equipment... but she just put Drain Power on Mage Wand to win the Mind Control/Dispel wars. Besides luck, I haven't found any effective strategy.
For 11 Mana, her sword rolls 8 dice (10 with Bear Strength), while Warlock's 8 mana sword rolls 5.
But it's her innate Deflect that really tips the scales... Free mana 50% miss for my burn spells or attacks.
Hope this helps!
-
This might of been said already but..... The dancing scimitar will eat force field charges up quickly for a solo mage. A lot of points for anyone but the forcemaster....but it worked well in a warlock deck. (That I hate so very,very much.)That and explode and drain life since they are not Attacks but deal damage.
-
Warlock-
My versions of the Warlock have all been aggressive builds: Lord of Fire buddy, Werewolf, Solo, etc.
So far, I've had No success against the Forcemaster. Lord of Fire will get Mind Controlled even with a Nullify (She can Seeking Dispel/Mind Control in the same action). Werewolf dies too fast. And I haven't been able to keep up with her doublestrike and defenses when I run solo. There are too many items to Dissolve. Dancing Scimitars and Hauberk and Elemental Cloaks keep wrecking me. Agony gets Dispelled right away. The low mana production of Warlock simply cannot keep up with Forcemaster's arsenal. I tried a slower approach, building up my equipment... but she just put Drain Power on Mage Wand to win the Mind Control/Dispel wars. Besides luck, I haven't found any effective strategy.
For 11 Mana, her sword rolls 8 dice (10 with Bear Strength), while Warlock's 8 mana sword rolls 5.
But it's her innate Deflect that really tips the scales... Free mana 50% miss for my burn spells or attacks.
/quote]
With Warlock, Skeleton Sentries are good foot soldiers due to their psychic immunity..no sleep, no charm, no mind control. she HAS to just beat them down or let them grind away her forcefelid/defenses while you work her over. They also take no damage from Idol of Pestilence if you want to go that route. She has a natural health disadvantage against a Warlock so Idol is nice if you fit it in to the overall strategy, combined with Ghoul Rots and Mage Banes (her force pull counts as spell FYI) you can get her taking a lot of defense penetrating damage and force her to spend lots of mana and actions purging, while you can keep those laying on steadily. Drain Life also will totally ignore her Force Field and defenses since its not an attack. So they make great coffin nails for her.
Ring of Curses/Enchanters Ring make huge mana savings. Sectarus will lay curses while you attack saving you mana and youll save 1 every time you flip, and save 1 every time you buff yourself or use a block/reverse attack/nullify. (reverse attack spoils her day when she wastes attacks AND knocks off her forcefield tokens)
Keep yourself with falcon precision (ignores defenses), use Sectarus to keep curses going on her, pressure with Skeletons. She can dispel your personal buffs, she can dissolve your sword (which you can replace fairly easily, or even replace via a battleforge), she can purge the debuffs... but she doesnt have mana or actions to do all that, manage upkeeps AND play her tricks.
When shes managing her actions or has a lot of mana tied up in upkeeps, dissolve/explode galvatar. Yes, it goes back into her spellbook...but she has to come up with another eleven mana and spend another action to replay it (which you can jinx to make her waste the action and spend another round weaponless). her channeling is 10.. so even with no upkeeps its casting cost is more than she naturally produces. having to re-play that sword is a massive pain. youre saving mana with melee attacks and rings...shes spending to purge/debuff. when you can afford it, dissolve/explode again, make her RE-cast it again. She doesnt have the innate melee boost a warlock has, without that sword and with an agony she is pretty worthless in melee.
I also recommend casting Nullify on the Forcemaster. Let her throw away her force fields and bear strengths or waste time seeking dispelling anything thats face down. The whole idea is that she spends mana and actions doing things other than what she wants. Jinx completely disrupts her flow as does Mind Shield. Any turn that she spends casting a Seeking Dispel AND a Dispel/Dissolve is great. You can replace easier than she can purge. With the two rings and familiar you can replace at must less cost than her while keeping your agenda on track, or at least only partially hindered when you have to stop and dispel/disolve yourself.
Also, when Sersirex comes out, hes going to be a pain the rear for her with Warlock. Yet another thing that can cast curses/attack spells, is Warlock only (so no mind control), can ignore charm (since casting curses is not an attack). This little guy AND Sectarus together will keep her very tied up with debuff purging.
Ive had some good matches in tinkering around. Shes about controlling expenses. Forcemaster requires managing a budget to be successful, and has the big weakness of not having any surprises... Theres not much a Forcemaster can bring to the table that you dont expect. When you strain her action budget and mana expenses you can work her down.