Still its relevant when it casts it in relation to counter strike.

Is it possible to give it -2 dice before it hits back?

The ability takes effect during the "Damage and Effects" step. During this step it immediately cast the spell, and by the rules of placing an enchantment, you can reveal immediately.
So anything that happens after that step is subject to the curse laid on them.

 Where it gets a little weird is that the ability requires the target to be damaged from the attack, and remember that enchantments cannot effect an event that has already happened. So for example,

Sectarus rolls 2 damage and you have the option to cast the curse, "Rust" and reveal it immediately. Since we are still in the damage and effects step the target does lose 2 armor, but since the damage has already been done, as per a condition to cast the spell, the attack does not do two more points of damage.

To specifically answer the question, yes you can put an agony on a target and that curse effects their counterattack.

Curiously however you can also, under the effect of a battle fury, place a marked for death on the first swing and not get the bonus on the second attack; that is a marked for death wording thing though.

I checked my card against the spellbookbuilder image, and it is different in the same way as werner suggests.

I think there was a promo version? Maybe..... /shrug

Quote from: SirJasonCrage on February 20, 2018, 03:42:52 AM

As far as I know, the markers give you the trait, yes?

That's what I've always thought... but Puddin' seems to believe differently, and he know better than I.

Still it seems odd to me if he is right.

He is not
Token (Game Term)
A token is a small marker used to keep track of something. Tokens
are not usually provided with Mage Wars - please use anything you
wish for a token - pennies, dice, beads, etc. Conquest of Kumanjaro
includes small token markers you can use for Armor +1, Melee +1,
and Ranged +1 effects

Tokens are there to physically represent the traits, not give bonuses while not actually being the trait.

Izzy would have the subtype as long as you controlled it... from spellbook building on. If another Mage took control of Izzy somehow, then it would lose the subtype (and potentially gain a different one, depending on who the new controller is).

At no time does training ever cease to exists.

It's not a training issue, its an ability issue.

Step 4: Resolve Spell
At this point, the spell takes effect. The spell type (e.g.,
conjuration) and the text on the spell card determine the
effects of the spell. If you have cast an attack spell, you must
now resolve the attack.

RAW? I would say she absolutely does not gain additional trainings until she is resolved.

Her ability text is never RAW applied to her until after she is cast. It's not something like X = where the X is the actual casting cost and is explained later in the card. This is an ability, that technically should not exist until after she resolves. However, since she can be cast from lair / barracks we have to assume that this ability is special and works via the owner and additional schools, if applicable based on mage training, is always taken into account from an "owner" perspective.

Because, even though the control has changed, via reanimate, mind controller, or whatever, ownership does not.

All that could be cleared up if an X was in the subtype and then an ability text like, " If Izzy's owner is trained in.<insert school here>. X = <insert subtype here> " Owner is described in the codex and there is no issue since there is at least some precedent with the X = scenario.

It doesn't say that however and when I explained that to players, there is nothing in the rules to say she should work like that. There is no X in her subtype and there are no rules to support her being able to be cast from the lair / barracks aside from intent.

End of the day card abilities should trigger in the resolve spell set and not in the spellbook creation stage.

The simplest solution is to give her both subtypes and have her ability read "If the mage is not trained in war she loses the soldier subtype" and so on.

Either way,
These are not the droids we're looking for; Move along.

#endRant

From the rulebook about enchantments:

"When you cast this spell, it creates a magical "matrix" on the target. At this point, it is not fully formed and exists only as magical potential, with no effect on the battle. When the spell is revealed later, the caster "completes" the spell by adding additional power. It is only then that the enchantment takes form and can affect the target." (my emphasis)

First, if this bit of flavor text was taken at face value then you could not target hidden enchantments and cards like [mwcard=MWSTX2FFJ01]Harshforge Monolith[/mwcard] would not be able to function properly, since were are now giving hidden enchantments traits (wrap your mind around that) .

Now story time

Spells always have subtypes, names, etc.

It's why you can't legally put two hidden enchantments of the same name on a creature, but IT CAN HAPPEN.

When I cast a bear strength on your creature I dont have to ask if the current hidden enchantments are bear strengths to make sure its a legal cast. If you then reveal a prior hidden enchantment on the creature that happens to be a bear strength, I don't have to remove my hidden enchantment even though I know its not allowed to be cast on that target, the rules are very clear on when and where you check for target errors.

Now that sounds funny because if you have a revealed bear strength on a creature it's an illegal move to put a hidden bear strength on that creature, but it's 100% legal for a creature to have two enchantments of the same name unknowingly.

The only defense you have at this point is the bit of the rules where you are not able to shuffle or mix enchantments. Order that they are placed is important for opposing traits and such so when some throws a free hidden enchantment down on a creature I would make a note or place a mana token on it. If, when revealed it is not a command thenthey lost spellbook points and an action casting it.

All things considered it is a minor issue at best.

Using your Naiya example, you can totally gamble your mind shield on the Naiya card. Mind shield is not a mandatory reveal. So when she casts an enchantment on your creature that's between you and Asyra. Mind shield also has text to allow it to function as an immediate reveal when a psychic enchantment is revelaed and
work accordingly.

Then you have instances like Izimbila. Her ability text is always "active" even though she is not resolved. Much like the X value issue where the ability text explains what that cost is she has an text ability that describs what additional subtypes, if any, she has. That's why a barracks or a lair can cast her.

<More on this later>

@Puddin
If you control a Familiar during the
Planning Phase, you may select a
spell for it to cast during the round. The
Familiar may have restrictions on the
types of spells you may choose. Place the spell face
down near your Familiar, and tell your opponent that
it is the Familiar’s spell. Only your Familiar may cast
that spell during the round.

It's not crystal clear but I would say no. It has to prepare what it is allowed to cast.

The bonus only applies ONCE per round across ALL options, however.  So you cannot claim the discount on a soldier or a command incantation/battle order or command reveal if you have already claimed the bonus on a face down enchantment earlier in the round.

citation?

Off the cuff I cannot think of a specific rule that says that you cannot have multiple discounts applied to the same cast.

Quote from: Puddnhead on February 06, 2018, 11:08:43 AM

Quote from: DaveW on February 06, 2018, 10:09:23 AM

I thought that since zones were not objects, you could target the same zone with more than one. You can put more than one of the same creature in the same zone... why not seedling pods?

Creatures are not "attached" to the zone.  Conjurations are.  Also, you can't have more than one Hydrothermal Vent attached to the same zone.

What allows more than one vine marker in a zone? They are conjurations also... are they not attached to the zone?

The vine markers allow more than one instance per zone

Vine Markers (Game Marker)
Vine markers are a Living conjuration with 1 life, no armor, and they cannot gain armor. Vine markers hinder enemy non-Flying creatures. Any amount of damage will destroy a Vine Marker, regardless of its total life. They can’t be targeted by ranged attacks. ***Any number of Vine markers can occupy a zone.*** As the Druid, or a familiar or tree spawnpoint she controls, casts a vine spell, you can destroy a target Vine marker she controls as an additional cost to cast that spell. If you do, you may ignore the range of that spell to target that Vine marker’s zone, an object in that Vine marker’s zone, or a border of that Vine marker’s zone. That vine spell must have a legal target. If two or more Druids are playing, each should use a different side of the Vine marker to distinguish ownership.