Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => General Questions => Topic started by: TheVoice on October 28, 2013, 06:39:58 AM
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When a creature is pushed by a spell that does not allow a choice of direction can you choose to bash the creature into a wall even if doing so doesn't move the creature further from the push source?
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Taken from the Codex.
Push
Push is an effect caused by some spells and attacks that moves the target
into an adjacent zone. Unless the effect says otherwise, the Pushed creature
must move one zone away in the opposite direction from the source of the
Push. If there is a choice of direction (such as pushing a creature diagonally
opposite, or if the source of the Push is in the same zone as the target), the
source of the Push chooses the direction.Some spells may Push in a random direction. To determine the direction,
choose one side of the board to be “North” and roll the Effect Die: a 1-3
Pushes the creature North, 4-6 = East, 7-9 = South and 10-12 = West.
A creature may be Pushed through a wall, but only if the wall does not have
the Passage Blocked trait. The Pushed creature suffers any attack from the
wall if the wall has the Passage Attacks trait. If a creature is Pushed into
a wall with the Passage Blocked trait, it is Bashed against the wall and
suffers an Unavoidable attack of 3 attack dice. Note the walls around the
outside of the arena all have the Passage Blocked trait. Note that Flying
creatures ignore walls, except for the ones around the outside of the arena.
Some creatures and all conjurations have the
Unmovable trait. They cannot be Pushed and ignore
all Push effects.
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You must push them in the opposite direction from the source of the Push. If they happen to hit a wall in the process, then they are Bashed.
The only times you get a choice in the matter is:
1) The spell says you get a choice.
2) You are in the same zone as the target.
3) You are diagonally opposite of the target.
In these situations, choosing to Bash them into a wall may be perfectly acceptable.
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You must push them in the opposite direction from the source of the Push. If they happen to hit a wall in the process, then they are Bashed.
The only times you get a choice in the matter is:
1) The spell says you get a choice.
2) You are in the same zone as the target.
3) You are diagonally opposite of the target.
In these situations, choosing to Bash them into a wall may be perfectly acceptable.
In situation 1) above does the choice of zone selected still need to follow the "push" effect that moves the target 'away' from the caster. i.e. When a Push spell or effect says 'in any direction' does this allow the caster to actually "pull" the target closer, rather than "push" the target away?
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If it says you get a choice (e.g. "Push") then you get a choice, no matter what. You can pull them closer.
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The most common example is the spell Force Push, which allows you to move the target in any direction. Towards, away, doesn't matter.
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If it says you get a choice (e.g. "Push") then you get a choice, no matter what. You can pull them closer.
That is the way we have been playing, but the wording of the Forcemaster's Special Ability made me wonder since it uses the term Force Pull to bring the target closer to the caster. I began to wonder if choice of direction on Force Push just meant which zone it could be pushed away from the caster, but it still required a push away.
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If it says you get a choice (e.g. "Push") then you get a choice, no matter what. You can pull them closer.
That is the way we have been playing, but the wording of the Forcemaster's Special Ability made me wonder since it uses the term Force Pull to bring the target closer to the caster. I began to wonder if choice of direction on Force Push just meant which zone it could be pushed away from the caster, but it still required a push away.
Nope. Force Push can push them in a direction of your choice. It specifically says so.
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If it says you get a choice (e.g. "Push") then you get a choice, no matter what. You can pull them closer.
That is the way we have been playing, but the wording of the Forcemaster's Special Ability made me wonder since it uses the term Force Pull to bring the target closer to the caster. I began to wonder if choice of direction on Force Push just meant which zone it could be pushed away from the caster, but it still required a push away.
Nope. Force Push can push them in a direction of your choice. It specifically says so.
I agree that it states a push in the direction of your choice, but does the definition of push include pull? I see two interpretation:
A) It could mean that the push doesn't have to be in the direct opposite direction from the caster, but otherwise must meet the requirements of a push. i.e. away from the caster. So this would give the caster a choice of 3 directions in most cases. All of these choices 'push' the target further from the caster, but don't limit the effect to 'directly away from the source' of the push.
B) It could also mean that we include pull in the definition of push and ignore the requirement that a 'push' moves the target into a zone further from the caster, then the caster would have a choice of 4 directions - 3 pushes and 1 pull.
I have been playing B) above that Force Push allows a "push or pull" of the target in any direction selected by the caster, but the intent could be A) that it only allows a "push" of the target in any direction allowed by a push but does not allow a "pull".
A nit picking interpretation I agree, but as I said, in combination with the "pull" wording on the Forcemaster Ability card it started me wondering.
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I think of it as a push, with Force Push I get the choice of direction, including "pushing" towards the zone I am in.
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I think what we need to do is look back at the actual rules in the Codex entry for Push. Specifically the sentence that reads: "Unless the effect says otherwise, the Pushed creature must move one zone away in the opposite direction from the source of the Push."
The spell [mwcard=MW1I12] Force Push[/mwcard] would fall under the definition of saying otherwise, therefore it breaks the normal directional requirements. The new requirement is then stated on the card "in the direction of your choice." Choosing to push the creature towards yourself is thus perfectly acceptable.
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The [mwcard=FORCEMASTERABILITYOUTLINE]Forcemaster Ability Card[/mwcard] says "target is Pushed 1 zone TOWARDS her". There is no new "pull" wording, it is still a push. Force Pull is just the name of the ability.
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Hmm, here's an interesting question I just thought of: I know the Forcemaster's ability specifically calls out not being able to pull through a Passage-Attacks wall. But could it be used to pull a target so that it slams into a Passage-Blocks wall?
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Yes it may. However, this is a rather difficult maneuver to pull off because you must have line of sight to the target and every wall with the Passage Blocked trait also blocks line of sight. Thus in order to do as you suggest, the Forcemaster would have to stand on the diagonal from her target so she could see past the wall to be used and still be able to target the creature she is pulling.
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I think what we need to do is look back at the actual rules in the Codex entry for Push. Specifically the sentence that reads: "Unless the effect says otherwise, the Pushed creature must move one zone away in the opposite direction from the source of the Push."
The spell [mwcard=MW1I12] Force Push[/mwcard] would fall under the definition of saying otherwise, therefore it breaks the normal directional requirements. The new requirement is then stated on the card "in the direction of your choice." Choosing to push the creature towards yourself is thus perfectly acceptable.
Agreed. For Force Push I always simplified the sentence to read "the Pushed creature must move one zone in the direction of your choice". It sounds like that is how everyone else plays it as well. However, another intent would be "the Pushed creature must move one zone away in the direction of your choice."
It comes down to how we parse the word "away " when adding the new requirement "in the direction of your choice."
The community appears to be in agreement so no need to beat a dead horse.
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There is no "away" in Force Push.
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There is no "away" in Force Push.
QFT
You choose direction for FP 8)
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My thinking still goes back to the sentence "Unless the effect says otherwise, the Pushed creature must move one zone away in the opposite direction from the source of the Push." All of the rules within that sentence come after the conditional statement "Unless the effect says otherwise," and are thus ONLY applicable if the effect doesn't specify it's own rules for direction and distance. When the effect does specify such information, then you ignore the normal rule and completely replace it with the effect in question.
Force Push actually does a very good job at replacing the rules within that sentence. The card specifies both the Distance (still one zone) and the Direction (of your choice) in a very clear and concise manner. If you ignore the entire codex sentence I quoted, because it's conditional statement has not been met, and replace it with the card text, everything makes perfect sense.
The confusing spell, for me, would actually be [mwcard=FWI04] Force Wave.[/mwcard] This spell seems to replace the normal Push rule regarding direction with the line "away in the same direction." Unfortunately, this line is not very clear. By "away" do they mean in the opposite direction or just an increase in distance from the caster? I tend to rule for the former case, but I can see people choosing the latter legitimately.
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Ok, here's a big list of every push effect in the game right now, as far as I can remember them, and how I've always played them. Card images are mouseover-linked to the titles.
[mwcard=FORCEMASTERABILITYOUTLINE]Forcemaster Ability Card[/mwcard] -
You always push toward the Forcemaster. At range 2, if you're on a diagonal, you can chose either of the two zones that would make the target closer to you.
[mwcard=MW1C40] Whirling Spirit[/mwcard] -
Standard push. Since it's a melee attack, it's always coming from the same zone as the target, so you chose any direction because they're all away.
[mwcard=MW1A09] Jet Stream[/mwcard] -
Standard push. Always pushes away, again with the diagonal choice at range 2.
[mwcard=FWI04] Force Wave[/mwcard] -
Nearly standard push. All creatures must go away, and it's range 1-1, so there's no diagonal choice.
[mwcard=MW1I12] Force Push[/mwcard] -
"In the direction of your choice." You can push them toward you, away from you, whatever.
[mwcard=FWI03] Force Bash[/mwcard] -
Again, "In the direction of your choice." Bash them as you see fit.
[mwcard=FWI07] Repulse[/mwcard] -
Random direction, like it says.
[mwcard=DNC21] Thornlasher[/mwcard] -
Snatch is Toward.
The general rule is that if it says, "Push" then you must push away. If it says "Push away" then you must push away. If it says, "Push Toward" then you push toward, and if it says "Push in the direction of your choice" you push in the direction of your choice. This isn't complicated, don't make it any harder.
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I worry that I may be pulling things off topic, but I am going to play devil's advocate a little bit. The general rule is not that Push means to Push away, as you say ringkichard. It is actually much more specific than that. It is push 1 zone in the opposite direction from the caster. Thus, when Force Wave says to Push them 1 zone away in the same direction, it does not necessarily mean the same thing as the general rule. "Away" can have a much broader meaning than the general rule for Push.
First off, it seems to me that Force Wave was worded that way to ensure that you could not move different creatures in different directions. This, however, would imply that such a thing was possible to begin with. If you don't ever have a choice in the direction pushed, how could you ever possibly move two creatures in different directions? Since the spell is a range 1-1 you'll never have the issues of the caster standing at the diagonal OR the issue of them being in the same zone. Thus, neither of those situations will ever occur to give you a choice in direction. The only other possible thing to give you a choice is if the effect itself allows you a choice.
Now, the word "away" can legitimately be defined as increasing the distance between two objects, rather than moving in the opposite direction. Thus, it does seem like a reasonable ruling to say when you use Force Wave you can choose any direction to push them in except into the caster's zone, but then all of the creatures have to be moved in that direction.
Personally, I would tend to still use the spell as pushing in the opposite direction just to avoid any hassle or argument, however if someone else wanted to use it otherwise I can see their point and would not be able to argue against it. I could actually even see someone arguing that the text on Force Wave means pushing the creatures "away" from the target zone instead of "away" from the caster, which would actually allow them to be pushed in any direction including towards the caster. I don't personally believe this was the intent, and would probably argue against such a case, but it isn't completely without merit either.
I apologize if I am making this more complicated than it needs to be, ringkichard. I just thought that since this was a thread about ambiguities with Push effects, I would throw in one I think really is not covered very well.
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I guess you could make the argument, but you have to read the card's use of "away" as substantially different than rulebook's use of "the Pushed creature must move one zone away in the opposite direction from the source of the Push." I think if the card meant "Not Toward" it would say that, and further I read "in the opposite direction from the source of the Push" as clarifying the meaning of Away, since Away is an English word in this circumstance, and not a defined codex rules word.
Given the very restrictive range, I think it's clear from context what's meant, but I'll concede there's room for debate, especially because in my interpretation the word "away" is functionally superfluous and only serves to clarify. I thought for sure this had been asked previously, but if it had, I can't find it now.
Oh, and I forgot
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKA01] Surging Wave[/mwcard]
and
[mwcard=FWC13] Selesius, the East Wind[/mwcard]
in my push list. Both are basic pushes.
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For me it would be clearer to have a Codex definition for Push/Pull effects with Push meaning away from the caster and Pull meaning towards the caster. Then spell effects could be described as Push, Pull, or both.
What always confused me somewhat was that pushing towards something is used in the context of someone else doing the pushing. "I push the ball towards Jim" means that Jim is not the one 'pushing'. Whereas, pulling towards something is a term used when you are moving something towards yourself. It is not common syntax to say "I pushed the chair towards me" and it feels a little counterintuitive. However, the intent seems clear now with how this effect works in the game.
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You assume it is your mage who is doing the push, while it is the magical force that you created (behind your target) that does it. So pushing toward you is perfectly normal and logic.
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For me it would be clearer to have a Codex definition for Push/Pull effects with Push meaning away from the caster and Pull meaning towards the caster. Then spell effects could be described as Push, Pull, or both.
There is no pull effect in the game.
(The forcemaster ability called force pull is a push effect with limitations.)
Related to what you talk about we got:
Push.
Snatch.
Push is clearly defined in the codex, the same goes for snatch.
All cards such as the incantation "Force Push" that can do more than the codex clearly defines it in the text on the card.
At one point i hadnt bothered reading the specific codex for push - or i had forgot it.
I was basing push effect (jet stream mainly) by how the Incantation "Force Push" worked. (i chose direction regardless.)
In one game i learned it the hard way and i turned things upside down from that point - taking the codex as being the standard and exceptions on each card overruling it.
Really... its fine as it is.