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Author Topic: So it's turn 1....  (Read 4468 times)

Chicken the God

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So it's turn 1....
« on: April 10, 2015, 02:36:20 PM »
So here's a fun question:

It's turn one. Your opponent passes you the initiative for turn 1. You see he's playing the johktari beastmaster, but no local meta knowledge (let's pretend a tournament) and you're playing your favorite mage (or any)--what do you do?

Hah enjoy!

You can also talk about variants, not just seeing the j. Beast...


Borg

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Re: So it's turn 1....
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2015, 05:26:09 PM »
Since I have Initiative and all I see is my opposing Mage I turn to my "standard" opening

Forcemaster : Cheetah Speed + double move + Battle Forge

Adramelech Warlock : Move + Fireshaper Ring + FD Hawkeye

Priestess : Avenging Angel + Enchanter's Ring

Earth Wizard : Move + Mana Crystal + Mana Crystal

Bloodwave Warlord : Barracks + Move + Garrison Post

Druid : Move + Vine Tree + Harmonize

Necromancer : Death Ring + Libro Mortuos

etc
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ringkichard

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Re: So it's turn 1....
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2015, 12:33:41 PM »
I'm assuming the Beastmaster will try to hit turn 3, so that she can get priority followup on turn 4. That's usually the reason to pass initiative with an agro book.

If I'm playing Wizard, I need to decide how many conjurations I have room for. I don't want to have to fight over a mana crystal I placed in a vulnerable zone, if I can help it.

Options: I can try to bait her into a turn 2 attack so I get first follow up on turn 3. How sure was she that she wanted to pass initiative? How much time did she spend choosing  her initial hand? If hesitant or uncertain, 1st turn Gorgon and Nullify, 2nd turn walk forward, Brace Yourself and Wizard's Tower positioned for Jet Stream. It's a great counter to a rushed opening trying to capitalize on Rouse The Beast to restore attack timing. Third turn Jinx and defensive equipment might win the game right there, depending on how the Gorgon rolls.

If I think she's more likely to stick to her guns, I need to stay in my starting zone to make it harder to hit me on turn 3. That argues for a turn 1 Gate to Voltari and a turn 2 Jelly or Gargoyle, depending on how her opening evolves.
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Coshade

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Re: So it's turn 1....
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2015, 01:33:34 PM »
Hey! this is a great scenareo! What makes Mage Wars fun is the variety of ways to plan openings. I'm going to avoid specific mages and type more general ideas I have about it. Here is what I think!

For most mages I would go Mana Crystal (or flower) during main action and hold my quick cast for the end quick cast phase. Only spending the 5 mana is not a big commitment and if they choose to rush they will be telegraphing it by the end of the main action phase.

If they choose to rush, then probably hold onto your second card and not use your QC marker.
How you can tell they will rush ---> There are a bunch of ways to read their plan based on the first main action phase. I prefer to hold my QC for the end QC phase because I am trying to judge when they will be advancing toward me.

1) How much did they move? - If they ran 2 during their main action I would expect it to be more rush based then if they stood still. Moving 1 can mean a lot and you have to see what they cast after moving to decide if they are rushing.

2) Did they cast conjurations - If they cast no conjurations, I expect more rushing. If they cast a low cost conjuration (Mana Crystal), I usually follow it up with my own mana crystal. If they choose a spawn point (Battle Forge, creature spawn) then I assume even less rushing!

3) They cast a spawn point - It's really important to factor in where they placed the spawn point. If they choose it in their middle square as opposed to their far center I would be more concerned about a timing push. Where conjurations are placed is where you will be reacting too.

The Johktari is rough because of the Rushmaster tactic. I've tried mages that channel 10 - QC Cheetah speed on myself then double move and cast FD enchant (Akiro's Favor). Then proceed to do the Rushmaster build T2 (granted 1 less die because no Hawkeye but it is still effective). It surprises people because they didnt expect to be getting Acid Balled, Hurl Bouldered T2 during planning phase round 1 VS a priestess. Granted this isn't the best strategy, but it is good training if you are doubting yourself vs rushing. You can always beat rushing if you have the right contingencies for it.
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Schwenkgott

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Re: So it's turn 1....
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2015, 03:55:31 PM »
When i play the first move, i try to conceal my overall strategy as long as possible.

Example: If my Wizard wants to open with the Crystal and the Forge, its very important not to show the location of the forge in the Action Phase. Maybe you won the initiative and have to move first. Wait with the Deployment of the Forge until the Final Quickcast Phase. This way you can react to the movement of the Enemy. I'm sure, no one wants to lose his forge in the second or third turn. So be sure to adjust the forge placement in the final quickcast depending on how your opponent moves.

Other example: If you are playing a straight in your face build, maybe the Jokthari Rushmaster, then you should not move 2 zones in the first round. While moving 2 zones, you give important information to your enemy, to what he can react in the next round, maybe by putting on some armor or enchanting a Brace yourself. If you move only 1 zone, planting a flower and giving yourself one single enchantment, the enemy cannot predict your next move and will less likely deploy a precautios defense. In the second turn, you will reach him anyway with your fast trait, so there is no reason to overcommit in the first round.

Last example: Playing precautious is not always the best way to play. Sometimes the first 3 rounds decide the game. If your enemy is building up a solid mana or spawnpoint base and you don't, because you are taking out Armor or deploy defensive creatures like Angels, you will be in trouble the longer the game takes. It is important to take out what you need when you need it (Casting a Fireshaper Ring, when you are not able to cast your first Fireball, makes no sense and will warn your enemy from what is coming) and react properly to your enemy. That's why it is not making very much sense to give an overview of moves for the first three rounds playing a deck. To look at the first round on the other hand makes sense, because that's where the efficient play begins. Knowing how to react in the next rounds is what separates the wheat from the chaff.

p.s. Good points Coshade :)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 12:46:33 PM by Schwenkgott »
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Borg

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Re: So it's turn 1....
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2015, 06:46:34 AM »
It seems to me that an agressive mage will have to show his hand sooner than a controlling mage.
The controller is built to react to what his opponent is playing, at the same time trying to conceal his own strategy whereas the agressive mage is more built towards getting into the opposition's face armed and ready in a couple of rounds.

Obviously, one tries to hide its strategy as long as possible but at the same time you have to get the most out of every action you have, and sometimes that will give the opposition a tip. It's that or taking a sub-optimal or reactionary action which gives nothing away. Question is : does this help you more getting the win or not ?

For example, when playing my Adramelech warlock I want to Fireball/Flameblast/Devil's Trident the enemy mage no later than round three. I also foresee I may have to deal with some armour or an Intercept creature at that point so I may have to select a Force Push or Disarm in round three as well.

That means I have two turns to get everything out that I want out. 

R1 you can move and have a FD Hawkeye and FD Akiro's Favor on you which doesn't give away much
but by Round 2 I also want the Fireshaper Ring out and an Elemental Wand so I can use my two planning cards in the following rounds to anticipate to the board situation.

Obviously, I'm giving my strategy away on R2 but delaying my strategy is more likely to diminish my chances than improve them imo.
I'd rather have the enemy react to the Warlock at that point than the Warlock having to react to the opposition.

It's the old Chicago Bears Defense philosophy. ( not the Bears of the last two years mind you :) )
We don't mind that you know what we're going to do on defense, we're going to do it anyway. See if you can stop us. Sometimes, the best thing to do is to do what you do best and let the opposition worry about the rest :)

« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 05:56:11 AM by Borg »
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Coshade

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Re: So it's turn 1....
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2015, 12:29:07 PM »
@Schwenkgott - This is great advice on conjuration placement! I lost my Battle Forge too many times until I figured this out.

With the Rushmaster - you are a tricky jerk :P I know Intangible is creating a Rushmaster 2.0 designed to deal with the ways people are currently countering it. I'm curious how it will turn out. The Mana Flower would make me think and second guess myself for so long.

I agree that the first three rounds can be a deciding factor for the game. I need to start thinking more with initiative and how the Battle Forge works. Preferably in a round where I have initiative I deploy the Fireshaper ring and first Quick cast I cast the Fireball. Thanks for bringing this up, it's good advice for fine tuning gameplay.
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Coshade

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Re: So it's turn 1....
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2015, 12:34:56 PM »
@Borg - You hit a lot of good points! A rush deck should telegraph what it's doing, but be extremely difficult to counter properly. I don't think even the best rush books will beat the best mid or late game books, but they are really good training on how to shape a book to have adequate defense.
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