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Author Topic: It's all about spell points!  (Read 13548 times)

Charmyna

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It's all about spell points!
« on: September 11, 2013, 07:06:07 AM »
First, I know its not all about spell points. But, I will show that its really important to take them into consideration when making strategic/tactical decisions.
Let me start with a statement: A well played wizard cant be defeated in early or mid game. Voltaric shield together with some armor and cheap teleport/mage wand allows the wizard to escape every rush. Therefore, if you play a wizard yourself or if you play against a wizard, you need to be prepared for late game!
Btw, late game is a complex word. What exactly is late game? I would say it’s the part in the game when you feel like your options or your opponents options during planning phase shrink. Lets say, you or your opponent is about to run out of cards from a category that is really important for his strategy (with category I mean: creatures/enchantments/incantations/attack spells/conjurations/equipment).



So the question is: What matters the most during late game? Here are a few possible answers:

Having higher channeling.
This does matter for sure.  But, if you run out of cards (i.e. options), especially if you run out of creatures, your mana wont help you at all.

Board control.
Sure, it helps having more and stronger creatures than your opponent or lowering his channeling enough so that he can cast a costly spell every other round only. But again, if you run out of good cards while your opponent still has some nice options to choose from, you wont keep board control for much longer!

In my experience from over 300 games I think what matters the most are spell points. Let me give you a few examples to demonstrate what I mean. They will be somehow simplified but still they illustrate the point and things like this happen quite often in some variation:



Example 1: In school vs out of school creatures.

In your build (wizard) you focus on in school creatures. Lets say you have 4 hydras. Your opponent is a wizard too and focuses on out of school creatures. He has a grizzly and a grimson sniper. Both of you invested the same spell points, but you can bet, at some point during late game his two creatures will be gone while you still have 2 of your 4 hydras on the board. GG!
Well, someone might argue that the sniper and grizzly put you under enough pressure to pay for their spell points and will kill your wizard quicker than you can make use of your bigger creature pool. I don’t think so. Even with a sniper and/or grizzly its really hard to kill a wizard that has some armor+voltaric shield +regrowth on him and is supported by hydras/gremlins/gargoyles. In the end, the sniper/grizzly will die at some point without putting your wizard under enough pressure to finish him off. I had enough of those games.
What does this have to do with the topic of this thread? Its all about spell points! The grizzly/sniper costs twice as much spell points compared to the hydra. Therefore loosing the grizzly/sniper will hurt much more than loosing a hydra and at some point the out of school wizard will have no creature left while the in school wizard still has some.

Example 2: Equipment vs Dissolve.

Your opponent likes having more life. Therefore, he includes two sunfire amulets (which give +1 life each round) in his spell book for 8 spell points. You are a water wizard with 6 dissolves. During the game he will cast the amulet twice and you dissolve it soon. He will still get 2 or more life from it, but in the end he will have paid 8 spell points while you paid 2 (with mage wand even less). I cant stress enough how important this is! Two life, heck even six life, really don’t matter if your opponent spent six spell points more than you did! Late game is not decided by six more life (and, as I said, as a well played wizard or if playing against a formidable wizard you will reach late game for sure). Its decided by who has the better options to choose from.

Example 3: Essence Drain vs Dispel.

Your opponent casts essence drain four times during the game. You dispel all of them and some of those dispels come from a mage wand. You will have lost 8 or more mana, but your opponent will have spent 4-8 more spell points than you did. This is really in your favor! A reason I do not include essence drain at all in my wizard spell books. Another reason is that I prefer to just kill his creatures quickly. Therefore, an essence drain won’t pay off. A similar example is ghoul rot vs dispel. Although I have to say that ghoul rot is a much bigger threat than essence drain since direct damage hurts a lot more than lost mana.

Example 4: Mind Control vs Dispel.

Your opponent casts mind control four times on your hydra and you dispel it asap. Your hydra will be stunned a lot but in the end the Forcemaster will have paid 20 more spell points than you did. You will win late game!
But be aware: If the Forcemaster uses mind control+obelisk to kill your big creature, this can be a real problem. It costs you spell points as well and might put you under a mana disadvantage which hurts so much that in this case it’s the mana that matters, not the spell points. Therefore, against a FM a mage wand with dispel is quite useful. Mind control has to be revealed between action phases. The latest point he can reveal it is before the final QC phase. If you have enough mana, a dispel wand and no jinx on you, you can dispel the mind control before he can use it to kill your creature during next upkeep phase. You need to save quite a lot mana to do this and need a nullify on yourself to protect against jinx, but it can really be important to let your creatures survive this threat.

Example 5: Attack spells vs creatures.

Your opponent is a wizard that relies on attack spells instead of creatures. He cant focus you while you have a couple creatures out since killing a wizard with attack spells takes really long (if it ever works at all) and during that time your creatures will kill his wizard. Therefore, he needs to take care of your creatures first. But, on average he has to spent more mana than you did and even more importantly, he usually has to spent more spell points (if you dissolve his elemental wand and destroy wizard tower quickly). At some point during the game he will run out of attack spells while you have creatures left.



Something that is closely related to this topic is the question whether to have two distinct strategies or to focus on one strategy. For example, as a warlock having two strategies could be going the curse route while including some melee orientated enchantments/equipments. On the other side you could forget about melee and just put more curses into your spell book.
At first glance it might sound strange, but I believe its often better to focus on one strategy instead of having multiple. The reason is that if you go the curse route half-heartedly you wont reach the point at which your opponent runs out of dispels/purifies. Sure, you will be able to melee, but your opponent will be able to counter that without the need of dispels/purify (i.e. armor+guards).
Another example: You play an earth wizard. Is it better to have a turn to stone and a tanglevine or two turn to stone? Lets neglect that the latter costs more spell points for the moment. Often its better to have two turn to stone! The reason is that turn to stone and tanglevine have different counters (dispel and teleport). Therefore, if you have both spells, its likely that your opponent has enough cards to counter both. But, if you focus on one strategy (i.e. only turn to stone), it is more likely that you reach the point at which your opponent runs out of counters.



Let me summon up: If you think that your games will often reach late game, you really need to consider spell point cost when thinking about your strategy. Be aware that equipment with high spell point costs (e.g. sunfire amulet) will put you under a spell point disadvantage (especially if facing a water wizard which I am sure will become quite popular with Druid vs Necro). If your mage is not a wizard, mage wand will cost a lot too. Still, unlike sunfire amulet, I would advice to take one or even more mage wands into your spell book. They are just too good at conserving spell points.
Maybe even more important than high spell point cost equipments are big out of school creatures. If you have two or more of those creatures, you really don’t want to reach late game! Therefore, if playing a wizard, I think it’s best to take as few out of school creatures as possible since it’s the late game the wizard shines at!
For all other mages this discussion still is important. If you often play non wizard vs non wizard, it matters to think about spell points too.  Your games might be quicker as compared to playing against a wizard, but still its not too unlikely that one of you will run out of good options at some point. If you don’t want to be that player, during spell book creation make sure to check whether that out of school card really is worth the extra spell point cost. Maybe you can substitute it with an in school card for nearly the same benefit or maybe digging deeper into an in school based strategy is better compared to having a backup out of school strategy.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 07:37:06 AM by Charmyna »

Stormmaster

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2013, 07:36:58 AM »
I absolutely LOVE reading all your write ups Charmyna.  Helps us newbies learn a lot.  Wizard is without a doubt my favorite Mage (so much versatility and different ways you can play it, so they don't get stale).

Charm where do you spread your points, what is your spell book balance?
60% creatures 20% spells 20% equip/other ???  40% 40% 20%???  Other?
When you are deciding between a 3 point nuke or a 3 point creature which wins out for you? etc

Increasing Power vs Increasing Versatility
I think the spell point system is what makes this game deep and engaging. 
Do you go really heavily in your school and splash a couple needed utility cards from the others? 
Do you go purely into your school so you maximize spell points?
Do you spread your points for all your favorite cards from all schools and limit spell points?
Do you go creature heavy, attack spell, incantation etc.
---I'm guessing (correct me if I'm wrong here please but 'longer term' end game you are better off adding a couple extra creatures than a couple extra spells?) 

That is the hardest part I have is deciding between some creatures and some nukes.  I generally favor things that last a long time or at least multiple rounds.  Which is why I use more creatures than I do spells (although I of course put some spells in, but only a handful).  Mage wands as you said are great for that, although not having the mage wand dispelled has been an ongoing dilema of mine.  I usually just save them for later game when resources of the other mage are getting depleted or they have more to worry about than my wand like a Vampire in their face.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 07:38:56 AM by Stormmaster »

Charmyna

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2013, 07:53:55 AM »
I absolutely LOVE reading all your write ups Charmyna.  Helps us newbies learn a lot.

Happy to hear that :).

Charm where do you spread your points, what is your spell book balance?
60% creatures 20% spells 20% equip/other ???  40% 40% 20%???  Other?
When you are deciding between a 3 point nuke or a 3 point creature which wins out for you? etc

My most played wizard spell book has (spell points in brackets):

Creatures (24)
incantations (31) - many dispels, dissolves, teleport
attack spells (8 ) - only one high damage spell, the others are for utility (surging wave, jet stream, geyser)
enchantments (17)
Conjurations (18)
equipment (22)

I am really no fan of attack spells! Without wizard tower I would include even less. I want spells that last on the board in oder to conserve spell points. Btw i dont really have a fixed distribution between creatures, incantations etc in mind when constructing a spell book. I just try to anticipate which spells are needed in the majority of games (or to be more accurate: In the games that are really hard to win). But, more important than anticipation is experience in real games - I adjust the book (one or two cards) very often after playing against a good opponent.


Do you go really heavily in your school and splash a couple needed utility cards from the others? 
Do you go purely into your school so you maximize spell points?
Do you spread your points for all your favorite cards from all schools and limit spell points?
Do you go creature heavy, attack spell, incantation etc.

I try to stay in school as much as possible. But, there are spells from other schools I dont want to miss (e.g. regrowth, regrowth belt, rhino hide, dragonscale hauberk as a water wizard, minor heal, the bimmelbammel hand). I try to limit those out of school spells to the level 1 spells. There are only very few level 2 out of school spells I consider putting into my spell book (heal, renewing spring, fireball/hurl boulder, force hold, battle forge).

That is the hardest part I have is deciding between some creatures and some nukes.  I generally favor things that last a long time or at least multiple rounds. 
This!

Mage wands as you said are great for that, although not having the mage wand dispelled has been an ongoing dilema of mine.  I usually just save them for later game when resources of the other mage are getting depleted or they have more to worry about than my wand like a Vampire in their face.
Yeah, it hurts to get mage wand dissolved. It helps to save them for later game, but sometimes you cant since you dont want to use too many dispels/teleports/dissolves without putting them on a wand. To be honest, I include 3 mage wands into my wizard book. They are just too good.
Btw, a reason I love water wizard is that it's cheap to have 6 dissolves which is the counter for equipment (especially mage wand) heavy mages.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 08:01:21 AM by Charmyna »

ringkichard

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2013, 08:05:41 AM »
Agro's solution to this is the mage's basic attack, especially with Forcemaster who has Galvatar as a cantrip. Every action spent making attacks instead of casting spells saves spellbook the same way a wand might.

In the future, I hope we'll have a few more cantrips and other recurring effects so that turtling doesn't inevitably gain such a strong advantage the late game.
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

Stormmaster

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2013, 08:09:05 AM »
Thanks Charmyna.  Since Wizard is my favorite Mage if you are accepting apprentices Wizards to learn from your sagely wisdom I'd like to sign up!  :D

Charmyna

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2013, 08:23:07 AM »
Thanks Charmyna.  Since Wizard is my favorite Mage if you are accepting apprentices Wizards to learn from your sagely wisdom I'd like to sign up!  :D
You are accepted as my apprentice. Go out and collect some mana flowers!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 09:16:53 AM by Charmyna »

Stormmaster

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2013, 08:55:54 AM »
Thanks Charmyna.  Since Wizard is my favorite Mage if you are accepting apprentices Wizards to learn from your sagely wisdom I'd like to sign up!  :D
You are accepted as my apprentice. Go out and collect some mana flowers!

Stormmaster bows deeply to his mentor Charmyna and says "You won't regret your decision to take me on master.  As I grow in power it will be a true testament to your mentoring and continue to build your legacy."  The young apprentice Stormmaster grabs a pouch, dons his Elemental Cloak and races off to the forest near Charmyna's keep to gather Mana Flowers for his master.  As Stormmaster gathers Mana Flowers he ponders his master's words on spell points and devises clever new ideas for his own spell books, eagerly awaiting his next lesson from Charmyna.

Charmyna

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2013, 09:16:04 AM »
Thanks Charmyna.  Since Wizard is my favorite Mage if you are accepting apprentices Wizards to learn from your sagely wisdom I'd like to sign up!  :D
You are accepted as my apprentice. Go out and collect some mana flowers!

Stormmaster bows deeply to his mentor Charmyna and says "You won't regret your decision to take me on master.  As I grow in power it will be a true testament to your mentoring and continue to build your legacy."  The young apprentice Stormmaster grabs a pouch, dons his Elemental Cloak and races off to the forest near Charmyna's keep to gather Mana Flowers for his master.  As Stormmaster gathers Mana Flowers he ponders his master's words on spell points and devises clever new ideas for his own spell books, eagerly awaiting his next lesson from Charmyna.

While his apprentice is making the forest an unsafer place to walk through, charmyna descends into the basement to feed the hydra with the remnants of his last battle versus the neighbouring Necromancer Urlock. "I hope Stormmaster knows to distinguish between Mana Flowers and Vine Snappers. Well, I guess Urlock wont mind training his reanimation skills anyway."

Koz

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2013, 09:54:17 AM »
Good points brought up in the OP.  I agree that spellpoints are important, I've always paid close attention to that stuff.  Going out of school should be kept to mandatory cards because otherwise it reduces your flexibility.  The mages that have to pay triple for certain spells should avoid putting those spells in as much as possible and limited to level 1 spells only.  While having a Vampiress in your Priestess may be cute and all, it's just too expensive for a competitive build IMO. 

This is what kills the Warlord the most I think.  His channeling of 9 already hurts, but then add in the triple cost for Arcane spells (the most important school IMO) and it just cripples him.  Any mage that has to pay triple for Arcane spells needs to be one bad mother in other areas...which the Warlord isn't.   

However, aren't you a fan of the Grizzly in your Wizard build?  Doesn't that go against the whole point of your thread?  Or have you switched away from the Grizzly in favor of in school creatures?

Charmyna

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2013, 10:02:15 AM »
Good points brought up in the OP.  I agree that spellpoints are important, I've always paid close attention to that stuff.  Going out of school should be kept to mandatory cards because otherwise it reduces your flexibility.  The mages that have to pay triple for certain spells should avoid putting those spells in as much as possible and limited to level 1 spells only.  While having a Vampiress in your Priestess may be cute and all, it's just too expensive for a competitive build IMO. 

This is what kills the Warlord the most I think.  His channeling of 9 already hurts, but then add in the triple cost for Arcane spells (the most important school IMO) and it just cripples him.  Any mage that has to pay triple for Arcane spells needs to be one bad mother in other areas...which the Warlord isn't.   

However, aren't you a fan of the Grizzly in your Wizard build?  Doesn't that go against the whole point of your thread?  Or have you switched away from the Grizzly in favor of in school creatures?

Yeah, I switched to gate of voltari and hydras/gremlins. The grizzly+battle forge build is quite nice as well, but I think this one is even stronger. It has a bigger creature pool and the gate in turn one increases channeling alot more compared to battle forge.

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2013, 10:07:13 AM »
Yeah, it hurts to get mage wand dissolved. It helps to save them for later game, but sometimes you cant since you dont want to use too many dispels/teleports/dissolves without putting them on a wand. To be honest, I include 3 mage wands into my wizard book. They are just too good.
Btw, a reason I love water wizard is that it's cheap to have 6 dissolves which is the counter for equipment (especially mage wand) heavy mages.

I don't worry too much about getting a wand Dissolved really.  I generally only play them off of a Battleforge, so when I deploy one it doesn't cost me an action and costs less mana.  I also make sure to cast the spell that is bound to the wand on the same turn I play it so that I don't lose the spell without using it.  When my opponent then Dissolves the wand they have to spend an action to do it and pay more mana than I did to cast it so I'm coming out ahead. 


Koz

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2013, 10:10:26 AM »
Good points brought up in the OP.  I agree that spellpoints are important, I've always paid close attention to that stuff.  Going out of school should be kept to mandatory cards because otherwise it reduces your flexibility.  The mages that have to pay triple for certain spells should avoid putting those spells in as much as possible and limited to level 1 spells only.  While having a Vampiress in your Priestess may be cute and all, it's just too expensive for a competitive build IMO. 

This is what kills the Warlord the most I think.  His channeling of 9 already hurts, but then add in the triple cost for Arcane spells (the most important school IMO) and it just cripples him.  Any mage that has to pay triple for Arcane spells needs to be one bad mother in other areas...which the Warlord isn't.   

However, aren't you a fan of the Grizzly in your Wizard build?  Doesn't that go against the whole point of your thread?  Or have you switched away from the Grizzly in favor of in school creatures?

Yeah, I switched to gate of voltari and hydras/gremlins. The grizzly+battle forge build is quite nice as well, but I think this one is even stronger. It has a bigger creature pool and the gate in turn one increases channeling alot more compared to battle forge.

Hmmm, interesting.  I moved away from creature Spawnpoints a long time ago because they just seemed too slow vs aggro (and everyone and their brother seemed to be playing aggro).  I'd like to see some of your games with the Gate to see how they playout.  Is there a way to watch any of your older games that you've streamed?

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2013, 10:20:25 AM »
Charmyna's games are recorded on his twitch feeds on OCTGN.  In fact I just watched one where he played gate on turn 1.  I think since the gate can get 3 mana per turn that is a nice boon and it pays off faster than some of the other spawnpoints, plus mana aside it gives you an extra action per turn.  Use gate to summon a creature instead of wasting your full cast when you can use that for something else like an attack.

Koz

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2013, 10:30:52 AM »
Charmyna's games are recorded on his twitch feeds on OCTGN.  In fact I just watched one where he played gate on turn 1.  I think since the gate can get 3 mana per turn that is a nice boon and it pays off faster than some of the other spawnpoints, plus mana aside it gives you an extra action per turn.  Use gate to summon a creature instead of wasting your full cast when you can use that for something else like an attack.

Oh, I understand what the Spawnpoint brings to the table, I had just found them too expensive and a bit restrictive (since they can only summon a certain type of creature). 

It's interesting that he's using Hydras.  In the early days Hydras were all the rage, but then people started to adapt to them with things like high armor, Agony, and Aegis, all of which make the Hydra's Triplestrike pretty weak.  However, recently I had been toying with the idea of trying them out again because I was wondering if people had stopped meta-gaming against them since they weren't showing up as much (now it's the Iron Golem that's all the rage). 

I see I'm not alone in thinking this way ;) 

Charmyna

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Re: It's all about spell points!
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2013, 10:31:24 AM »
Good points brought up in the OP.  I agree that spellpoints are important, I've always paid close attention to that stuff.  Going out of school should be kept to mandatory cards because otherwise it reduces your flexibility.  The mages that have to pay triple for certain spells should avoid putting those spells in as much as possible and limited to level 1 spells only.  While having a Vampiress in your Priestess may be cute and all, it's just too expensive for a competitive build IMO. 

This is what kills the Warlord the most I think.  His channeling of 9 already hurts, but then add in the triple cost for Arcane spells (the most important school IMO) and it just cripples him.  Any mage that has to pay triple for Arcane spells needs to be one bad mother in other areas...which the Warlord isn't.   

However, aren't you a fan of the Grizzly in your Wizard build?  Doesn't that go against the whole point of your thread?  Or have you switched away from the Grizzly in favor of in school creatures?

Yeah, I switched to gate of voltari and hydras/gremlins. The grizzly+battle forge build is quite nice as well, but I think this one is even stronger. It has a bigger creature pool and the gate in turn one increases channeling alot more compared to battle forge.

Hmmm, interesting.  I moved away from creature Spawnpoints a long time ago because they just seemed too slow vs aggro (and everyone and their brother seemed to be playing aggro).  I'd like to see some of your games with the Gate to see how they playout.  Is there a way to watch any of your older games that you've streamed?

Aggro builds really are no problem at all since the wizard cant be focused down easily (actually I believe you cant kill a wizard without supporting creatures or without the wizard having finite life). The gate pays off so quickly that even if the opponent rushes with creatures, its not too hard to defend. Btw if the opponent tries to overwhelm me with creatures, it really helps to use the wizard for guarding (to protect gremlins or gate) and zapping while using the gate to spawn a hydra or gremlin and the wizard tower to make use of the remaining mana. That way even against someone who at the beginning uses most of his mana for creatures, I quickly get board control even though I spend alot of mana for gate+harmonize.