Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: webcatcher on March 04, 2014, 07:46:11 AM
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I've been feeling bad for the mountain gorilla lately. He's not a bad creature - with 2 armor and 16 health he's hard to kill, and and the rage ability gives him good damage potential. Climbing is a little weird, but not useless. Unfortunately, for the same number of book points and only 1 more SP you can have a steelclaw grizzly instead. More survivable, rolls more damage dice, great full attack option, the grizzly definitely makes the gorilla look like the poor cousin. So I want to make the gorilla work. Regenaration nerfs the gorilla unnecessarily because he'll lose his rage tokens during the upkeep phase. Vampirism is better, but I suspect that only active healing or no healing is worthwhile for the angry ape. He works best with walls, so maybe in combination with flyers? Has anyone else had success with the gorilla?
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Wish they had given him rage+2 and 5 dice base attack instead of 4 base and 3 rage.
Or
Made rage trigger from any damage - tol and WT, damage barries, poisen cloud, pestilence etc.
(and yes i would attack my own gorilla)
Limiting rage to enemy creatures only is just too bad. (i hope they errata rage because its a mechanic i really want to use!)
Right now people can just neglect counterstriking when it attack guards because its actually not worth it.
Its a hella expensive creature that does little damage its cost considered.... why counterstrike it to make it stronger?
On the other hand i also feel that grizzly is 1 mana too cheap. If grizzly costed 18 mana maybe gorrilla would see more play. Right now grizzly is just the better option always.
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I've used him in J. Beastmaster, to run point guard against Zombies after Fellella pricked him. I liked him there... Until he was reanimated.
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Technically the gorilla has a much better quick attack than the grizzly once he gets some Rage counters. It's just more efficient and reliable to use the grizzly for the reasons jacksmack stated.
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Gorilla's got to get to 2 counters before his quick attack is better, and needs three counters to match Steelclaw's Full action attack. It's really just about the numbers. Maybe if it had more health; or a lower cost and level so it would be easier to make a pet.
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In a vacuum, Grizzly is better.
But if you look at the Gorilla, there is some stuff that could make it equal if not better than a Grizzly.
First, it cost 1 less mana.
Then, it has 1 more hp. Yes it has 1 less armor, but is it really a drawback when you actually want it to be damaged?
Then, Climbing prevent opponent mage to hide behind Stone/Steel walls.
Then, if there is a guard and it counterstrike, it buff up Gorilla attack, if to prevent the buff it doesnt counterstrike, it actually increase survivability of the Gorilla, so it basically increase its hp value by X (where X= the amount of damage the enemy attack would have done)
Then, once it get damage,
- 1 damage = its quick attack is almost equal to grizzly (missing the Piercing +1)
- 2 damage = its quick attack is better than grizzly
- 3 damage = its quick attack is almost equal to grizzly full attack (missing Piercing +1, but it is a quick instead a full!)
To really make it shine, Rage should be changed to "Each time it is attacked and Damaged by enemy,..." instead of enemy creature. Being hit by a Wizard Tower or a Burst of Thorn should enrage him too.
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I've always been a gorilla fan, even if just to be a hipster in the pro-grizzly world.
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The thing about it is I've seen the gorilla played a few times and it always seems to do pretty well. People seem to underestimate it.
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Here's a few ideas I've had today for the gorilla, let me know what you think (especially if you've tried these).
1) Gorilla pet: I know low level pets are usually more efficient, but the gorilla's last few life points are more efficient than his first few, so he benefits more than most from a higher starting life total.
2) Gorilla guard: Normally you use a weak attack to get rid of a guard token, then use a strong attack on a mage. But using a weak attack against the gorilla is just going to make him angry.
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I have a use for the gorilla- I often play with the recommended spellbooks, because all my friends still aren't that good, so I use him when the steelclaw's dead.
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Oh, WebC, we seem to be shockingly in tune... I too weep for the poor unloved Gorilla...
I wrote a long thread about "Resuscitating Unloved Cards"
My approach was to change the Codex, not the cards
Here is a carefully edited excerpt relating to the Gorilla.
5. Rage tokens are not removed by Healing
Nature has some great Level 4 Elites: Grizzly, Cervere, Redcalw, Galador, Kralathor - Gorilla is not one
For c.16 mana, I've far better options than a Gorilla - the solution is to make Rage and Climbing better!
Because it's enemy creature attacks only (no Jelly chomping on Thornlasher companion), it's not great
I get 4 dice now with a promise of 7 dice if I survive 3 enemy creature attacks, too much future benefit
That's why the Gorilla also needs Climbing to be upgraded
6. Climbing is a move action
Climbing currently appears on just 4 cards: Eagleclaw Boots, Gorilla, Animal Kinship and Ichthellid
Climbing currently interacts with 3 cards in a rubbish way: Wall of Stone, Wall of Steel, Wall of Bone
The moving through Passage Attacks clause makes no sense, further validating need for a re-write
To make matters worse, Restrain stops move actions but not a Climb full action, it needs a re-write
Because I can always move 1 then cast a Wall across the border I moved, Climbing is situational
Climbing as it stands is a defensive situational trait while it could be so much more useful in books
By making Climbing a move action, it solves Restrain, brings Passage Blocks mazes into the game
The mage who puts Climbing into his book is incentivised to add those Walls - good for the game
For me, the priority is to re-invigorate old cards and introduce styles, even if I'm playing fast and loose
I see no issue Climbing being code for "ignore Passage Blocked", like Reach is dubious "ignore Flying"
By making Climbing a move action, it adds relevance to this trait, opening up some interesting builds
It also solves the Restrained issue (Passage Attacks "benefit" is simply dropped as makes no sense)
I think Rage and Climbing could be such cool traits
The only reason Climbing is relevant is to don Eagleclaw Boots to climb out of a Pit
(Yes, an Ichthellid can climb over a Bone Fortress then be easily killed so it's flawed)
If the cheesy Pit strategy finally gets nerfed, what is it good for?
I don't think the Gorilla would suddenly become overpowered with these changes
There is a very easy way to avoid Rage and that's to just avoid attacking it, leaving it as a vanilla 4 dice
It would make a great Bodyguard but there are ways round this: Push, Tanglevine, Mongoose, Slam etc
Of course it's only enemy creatures so you can damage it with attack spells before swarming for the kill
Unfortunately "Resuscitating Unloved Cards" was felt to be too reactive so didn't get much open support
But I still contend you can elegantly make lots of these bad cards playable if you just changed the Codex
I mean, does anyone really play Staff of Arcanum or Mana Leeches? Now what do they have in common...
I just want these rejected cards to become useful without card erratas, by just changing their keywords
And I just wish the Gorilla could join the rest of the great level 4 Nature creatures out there to choose from
(Makunda is another poor level 4 because, even with future Cat support, he compares poorly to Redclaw)
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Sticking the OP, the only time I played a Gorilla was with the Jokhtaro
I chose it because it was thematic of Kumanjaro
The strategy was
Gorrilla (guards Lair) + Rhino Hide + Divine Protection
Because I was also playing Deathlock (for plentiful Bleed), the lack of healing was not an issue
It was however too big a defensive investment for a Beastmaster (even a Mid Range that planted Flowers)
And there lies the issue: it doesn't really gel with its school's strategies
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If rage wasn't negated by healing that would fix the gorilla entirely. It would require a little set-up, but a regenerating gorilla with a fox following him around to tick him off would be great.
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Its kind of pesky that Rage is only triggered by attack based damage and not just damage in general.. otherwise it'd have a lot of strong synergy with stuff like Plagued, or be a really good deterrent for an opponent relying on direct damage.
Since Rage is triggered by attacks,Id like to see a creature who has Rage and Intercept together. A Vigilant+Rage creature would be pretty nasty too.
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I am a derp. Apologies for the derp, and I will continue to derp.
I had forgotten the "enemy" creatures only clause, but I do think healing him up still is not a bad idea, as, yes, you have to get rage counters again, but with retaliate and guard, you should be able to do that in no time against an aggressive opponent.
Dude.
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@Dude
WB!
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Just been lurking for a while my friend! But thank you for the welcome ^.^
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@ Dude
Are you playing rage right?
It only triggers from enemy creatures attack's - not pestilence, damage barriers, condition markers, stranglevine, curses or wizardtower / TOL and especially not friendly creatures :/
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Not only that, but when it's healed--such as from a revealed Charm--one of the Rage tokens is removed.
It really is a terrible mechanic, as currently designed.
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Edited for my derptastic initial response. In my ripe old age of 21, I often find it helpful to forget key rules, especially when theory crafting. I need to play more Mage Wars again ^.^
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Had a cracking game yesterday against one of my buddies. It went on for a very long time, with lots of creatures being killed off. And so I ended up bringing my gorilla out (1st time ever, but my bear was dead, along with a whole lot of other stuff). Should have mentioned that I was using the Beastmaster, while Richard had the Necromancer out.
And what a guard the gorilla makes. Richard had a "stop dead in his tracks" moment: really didn't want to knock the gorilla of guard thereby giving him a more powerful attack - but he had to get to my Mage. Aye, it certainly opened my eyes so it did. But we're all still in our Mage Wars infancy at our club, so it's great making all these discoveries. I'll certainly think about using the gorilla more in the future.
Dave I
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Yeah now that you mention it he would make for a good guard.
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I really wish that the gorilla had intercept. Then I could shoot my hunting bow all day long...
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That would make a really cool Enchantment......
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OMG! You mean there WILL be an enchantment that gives a creature intercept? Yay!
Unless the large number of periods at the end of that sentence wasn't meant to be a hint......
If there ever is such an enchantment, I will greatly enjoy smashing my enemies' heads in with a Mountain Gorilla as I shoot at them with my Hunting Bow.......
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No, I was just saying that would be a neat idea for one.......
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I've used him in J. Beastmaster, to run point guard against Zombies after Fellella pricked him. I liked him there... Until he was reanimated.
Speaking of necroing gorillas...
Another reason for poor [mwcard=MW1C25]Gorilla[/mwcard] is the new promo creature:
(http://www.arcanewonders.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Dragonclaw-Wolverine.png)
I don't play with promos, but once this card gets released, i will love it.
Most times that I would want a gorilla(i play him as a defender), I would want a wolverine more.
2 less mana
high rage armor and rage counterstrike.
I like his attack more
Less damage dice and health, but the rest makes up for it.
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Yeah, I never play the Gorilla, but I want to try out that Wolverine.
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There's nothing wrong with the Gorilla; walls are just heavily underplayed. People would rather crush new players with Wall of Thorns cheese than learn how to use walls effectively.
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There's nothing wrong with the Gorilla; walls are just heavily underplayed. People would rather crush new players with Wall of Thorns cheese than learn how to use walls effectively.
What's wrong with using wall of thorns as a finisher? With some mages wall of thorns push is a good finisher if you remove nullifies/armor/eagleclaw boots first. Probably best with mages that have water or nature training, or who have familiars that can cast force push, jet stream, disarm/dissolve or rust.
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Who are you disagreeing with? I didn't say WoT + pushing is a bad finisher, even though it is. Five two-dice attacks for 11 mana isn't anything amazing, and it's awful against anything that has any armor or aegis.
Between Battleforge/Fellella, it's pretty easy to have something to deal with attacks without having to spend a mage action. If your opponent has no defensive enchants/equips at the end of the game, they either went all-in on creatures or messed up pretty badly.
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Here's a though, Webcatcher: what about increasing his HP? My understanding is that healing takes away the charge tokens, but giving life doesn't! Am I right?
You've got your solution to use the Gorilla now: use Bull endurance and Etherian life Tree. Very fitting for a Druid's build with a lot of creatures.
Thanks!