Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Charmyna on February 11, 2014, 04:12:28 AM
-
I just thought what could be the cheapest way (in terms of mana, not spellpoints) to get rid of Nullify?
I say its Purify! Not only the name sounds similar, it also costs zero mana and the opponent has to reveal Nullify :). Sure, if your intuition was wrong and its not a nullify, you just lost an action and a spell. But, at least you know its not a Nullify and you payed zero mana for that info! Im not saying its the best move. Still, if it works you seem like the smartest guy/girl ever ;D.
Edit: If youre a priestess, you get +1 life for that move as well! Holy sh.... Well, if your opponent pays two mana to reveal nullify, you do not get the life. But, thats even better since you payed zero mana and he four!
-
This is coming from the opposite side, but if a mage wearing an Enchanter's Ring puts downa decoy instead of a Nullify and it draws a seeking Dispel he saves a Nullify, makes a profit of 1 Mana, and the other guy wastes a spell.
-
You can't reveal decoy to get your mana back
-
Nice move!
What is this card you say ... "Purify"?
After Wand of Healing, it has a use?
I personally like Shift Enchantment my own Nullify from a Slow who is collecting Transfusion fodder.
Cost 1 quick, 1 mana, 1 SP (whoever you are).
If you succed, you now have soft control (Nullify 1+1 with 2 rings)
If not, you still have your Tranfusion combo growing.
Multiple Marked For Death for Nullify removal is my choice in aggro books.
As you just want one to stick and you can't afford the action tempo loss.
But yes, Purify is the only 0 cost incant out there (I think) so it would be the cheapest.
-
You can't reveal decoy to get your mana back
You don't need to reveal it, do you? Decoy was destroyed while in play. So you get 2 mana. Isn't this the point of Decoy?
It doesn't give you 2 mana if it was cancelled, ie. castng a Decoy on a Nullify which is the other 1SP route that costs you 2 or 0 mana.
-
Um good question...waits for the one who lives in the shadow...
-
Zuberi? He seems to be the rules expert on this forum!
:)
-
FAQ page 32 specifically says if Decoy is destroyed while unrevealed (such as with Seeking Dispel), they still get the 2 mana for it.
-
Zuberi? He seems to be the rules expert on this forum!
:)
I'm addicted to banana stickers. I swear they put something in them. Although I've been told I wasn't supposed to start eating them so maybe it's my fault.
-
That's why it had to be from the other direction. Playing a decoy on top of a nullify is just like seeking Dispel. You only get your money back if the decoy goes down first.
-
Playing a decoy on top of a nullify is just like seeking Dispel.
Not quite...
My opponent has 2 hidden enchants on him and I want to Dissolve his Teleport Wand
Seeking Dispel will only give me a 50% chance to hit Nullify unless I read his play order
Decoy will trigger that Nullify (but not the one that Transfuses onto him from his Jelly!)
If I am wrong and there was no Nullify (maybe Block and Retaliate?), I bank a surprise.
Seeking Dispel is good to disrupt non-mandatory combos (like a Transfusion instant burst of banked actions)
It's marginally cheaper with Arcane Ring (not to be sniffed at) but otherwise its use is more niche than Decoy
Seeking Dispel has its role but that is mainly against those control-combo match-ups which use timed reveals
Even if it hits your key 1 copy (e.g. it hits that Force Crush), Transfusion moves it to fizzle your Seeking Dispel
I've found one of its main uses is to remove an annoying predictable hidden Agony telegraphed on your Hydra
You really need to be able to read a game very well (or play against a telegrapher) to use Seeking Dispel well
The best I've ever hit with it was Divine Intervention (it was telegraphed)
I outwardly acted nonchalant which infuriated my distraught friend - he should know I'm a wind-up merchant
Quite often just running 1SP enchants that debuff (or buffs if testing a Nullify on self) is best to trigger Nullify
Decoy is great at 1SP and you just want your mana back if wrong (or lull opponent into thinking you have less)
That latter use of Decoy is crucial when you play against any opponent who knows the cost of all the spells
Sometimes you tap out to zero mana and the opponent gleefully tries to Dissolve your Dragonscale or Lash
Only for you to reveal a long ago Nullify-ferreting Decoy still on him to fund a Nullify trap you predicted and set
Then the next time you play that opponent, he becomes wary and looks at every hidden enchant like a Decoy
Tthat's when it gets fun, when the game rises to encompass bluff and out-thinking from Planning to Final QC
When you can hold off Retaliate until really buffed or it will kill the attacker as its existence fills him with doubt
I'd love more cards like Decoy: full information games are dull (guess who wanted Wizard's Training secret).
It's why I won't QC until Final QC if no benefit earlier (like reveal before roll dice), just to keep them guessing.
It's only a Crystal or a Flower cast in Final QC but why give them that extra information? Make them paranoid!
I feel so sad over what happened to Mind Control, wrong ruling leading to an errata that makes it unplayable
Just the knowledge that I used to run Mind Control in FM used to add so much paranoia on hidden enchants.
Before the ruling, I could reveal before last action if within 1, Obelisk in Final QC and bye bye over-buffed Elite
It costs 6 SPs, a gamble with so much Psychic Immune, you jump through hoops and a ruling caused a nerf.
It's why I always run at least 1 Nullify in all my books, even the most aggro, because all my opponents know it
So they look at every hidden enchant with suspicion (especially if you decline reveals for other mana spends)
"Well, he didn't reveal Bear Strength before Roll Dice so it could be a Nullify..." Maybe I had better things to do
I seem to have wandered off topic again....
But this intuitive game is so deep, despite attempts to destroy its subtleties (yet not nerf the 1 glaring brutality)
<Sigh>
-
What prevents you from still using that strategy with mind control? You now have to pay the upkeep on mind control for it to work, but it still works.
-
If X = creature's level
Opponent pays:
X spell points (assume in-school)
1 full action (assume no spawnpoint investment)
~4X mana (roughly, some like Raptor Vine considerably less)
You pay:
Mind Control
6 spell points
1 quick actions
3X mana (because I now have to pay X more mana!)
Mordok's Obelisk
4 spell points
1 quick action
8 mana
And also positioning: range 1 from his big threat
In addition, the Mind Control will be useless against
Necromancer
Earth Wizard (Golems + Jellies)
Air Wizard (Spirits + Jellies + Clouds)
Now I agree that Obelisk and Orb is good in Forcemaster period
(Therefore a good FM build should have a chance against Necro Swarm)
But there's a threshold of acceptability and Mind Control has crossed that line
You know what I would rather do?
Spend those 6 SPs on 3 more Force Holds
Force Hold (affects nonliving too, just not Jelly)
2 spells points
1 quick action and a reveal that denies a tactical move like Stumble to cancel an attack
3 mana (Force Ring) + 2 upkeep (Psi-Orb) to remove that buffed Elite from game unless he Dispels
The maths don't stack up, Zuberi.
Mind Control was borderline playable, its value was for mind games
Now, it's far below Temple of Light which I find is a tolerable 2SP toolbox investment against dominant Nonliving
Mind Control used to be "Mind Games"
There is nothing clever in winning a Teleport War to watch him devoured by Jellies
The concept of mandatory reveals is taking decision away from players (you could call it dumbing down, I won't)
Decoy is one of the few cards in the game that aspires to raise the game to another level
-
Correction: it's good if you are facing
(a) Lord of Fire + Bear Strength + Vampirism + Mongoose Agility
or
(b) Grizzly + Beat Strength + Vampirism + Mongoose Agility + Regrowth
But that's called silly overcommitment play by your opponent facing a control mage.
And have no illusions that the FM is an aggro-control mage.
You wouldn't do that against a Wizard with his 1 Purge Magic, would you?
So are you going to do that against a Forcemaster with 2-4 Force Holds?
So how much over-commitment would you make? Not much
In which case those rare overbuffed Elites that make it worthwhile will never happen against good players
Mind Control is a highly situational, sometimes a waste of 5% of your budget
It had to be a high risk, high reward card
But that ruling meant they had to nerf it (somebody said it was too good to reveal in Ready...)
The games hidden enchant mechanic is frankly, enchanting.
It's what elevates it from Magic, a suspend mechanic to time for maximum benefit
Mandatory enchants remove player choice: if it's so good, just make it more expensive!
If someone asked me to pick a card which shows Mage Wars at it's subtlest, it's Decoy.
Why couldn't more cards leverage this incredibly tricksy mechanic of setting up traps more?
Despite these self-inflicted wounds, it's still an awesome game, a testament to being BGG's #24.
Don't forget to vote, folks. Raise its visibility and you'ill get more local opponents to enjoy it more.
(Btw, Forge In Fire, after a lot of heated debate, has ended up frickin' awesome!
And I'm not one to sugar-coat things... No siree)
-
Decoy is one of my favorite spells as well, DB. I'm currently in the middle of trying to up my enchantment game (reference my recently-posted-and-not-very-effective forcemaster build) and I'm still figuring out the ins and out of it, but I agree that the enchantment fake-out mini-game is one of the most fun parts of MW.
-
Decoy is even better when Fellela casts it for you.. because you gain 2 mana when its revealed instead of it being a 2 mana refund from casting it. (assuming Fellela has been paying for herself and been worth her own cost and happily alive.)
-
Yep.
The game has so many good mechanics all melded together and that's what makes it survive these mistakes
Much of it is just resource management, investing in assets expecting good return over an antiipated lifetime
I find those mechanics in many Eurogames, though none of them chromed up so flavoursome like Mage Wars
But what makes it so special to me is the hidden enchantment mechanic
More triggered enchants would be great
I've never actually pulled off the "I Reverse Attack your Reverse Attack" coup but assume it's rules legal
Nobody plays them anyway because of the silly Unavoidable nerf
But even persistent enchants timed at the right moment can be great
"I reveal Cobra Reflexes in Avoid attack step, Oh, I guess I better reveal my Falcon Precision then"
It's never happened because they priced Cobra Reflexes too high but it's what could be possible...
I grudgingly understand why they went for "soft control"
By soft control, it's all these mandatory enchantments (I understand avoid double Nullify but the rest?)
The reality is the game has to be accessible to everyone and encouraging control can strangle a game
Denial and thwarting (cancel, rebound, redirect, return to book etc) is not fun when it gets too strong
And fun has to be the most important criteria for playing MW - this is not $1 million Pro Tour Magic here
But nothing, I mean nothing, beats the look of surprise when you reveal an unexpected enchantment
Surprise!
I use Enchanter's Ring in almost all my builds, even Warlock (for buffs and curse transfusion)
It's probably the best ring because of its versatility (Arcane is best School/Mage limited ring)
I wish they explored Traps more, created more Buffs and more Traps that target zones
Enchantments are only as good as the possibilities it may be and neglecting Traps is such a waste
Again, they made it mandatory when there was absolutely no need - it is a banked range 0 effect
An example of enchantments being only as good as the other possibilities:
If he enchants a conjuration with channeling, you can bet it's a Harmonize
(I've used this assumption to distract him into attacking a Forge with Decoy when he should have gone for me)
DvN is great but it had so few enchantments when it's such an enchanting mechanic
Magic players will understand when I say it's Suspend and Morph and Aura all in one!
Forcemaster is a really challenging build these days
The enchantments route is great fun against Living builds
Mongoose Agility is key to get past all the Charmed guards
I'm trying to salvage Mind Control and the best I could up with is...
You obviously have a Battle Forge (= turn 1 FM action generator) and within 2 of it with LOS
Aggro mage is with his Bear Strength Grizzly (wisely no other buffs) or something similar Elite
You are with them, probably all in the same zone, all cuddling up in a friendly bear hug
In Final QC gaining Initiative next turn, you cast Mind Control on the Elite
In Planning, you choose Nullify and Block (just in case, you plan to buffed Galvitar attack him)
In Deployment, your Forge grants you Healing Wand (essential for FM) to go with Galvitar
Before first action, reveal Mind Control for 8, QC remove Stun for 4 and attack him for 9 dice +1P
Assuming all your prior Force Holds have deprived him of Dispels, he's now in trouble
Naah, it's just too convoluted...
You can do similar just with Force Holds, your innate Force Pull (bypass Nullify) and your buffed Galvitar attacks
Can anybody defend having 1 Mind Control over 3 Force Hold?
-
I usually add 2 decoy's in every book in place of a seeking dispel because I use them to blank nullify spells more often than not, and its cheaper unless you're a Wizard of course, BUT I was unaware that you still get the 2 mana back from doing this. Awesome bit of info that I'm SURE my friends will argue over until I show them.
-
Decoy is even better when Fellela casts it for you.. because you gain 2 mana when its revealed instead of it being a 2 mana refund from casting it. (assuming Fellela has been paying for herself and been worth her own cost and happily alive.)
Nice!
I think the meta has moved away from Unavoidable attacks (beyond Surging Wave) so I may give these flying familiars another go.
What I like about Felella is she can be safe 2 behind buffing as free actions.
For Huginn to be useful (and he can win Jelly Pit Teleport Wars for you), he has to be frontline...
Also Felella can buff herself with Bull Endurance and Regrowth which is why I was attracted to her
But she's so slooow and not an animal for Ring or Lair so she's a fragile focal strategy price really
I remember an early experimental game when I tried "Beastmaster Control" (yes, it's funny looking back on it).
I played her, Warlock advanced and Fireshaper Flameblast turned her to crisp; never gave her a second chance.
Same with Sosruko, barbecued the poor thing. back to your hole, I never gave him a second glance afterwards
What can I say, I'm a love 'em and leave 'em kinda guy. :)
Decoy, eh? Underrated.
Works best against opponents who study your mana available. Or who over-think what that enchantment is.
Er... that sounds like me.
-
I usually add 2 decoy's in every book in place of a seeking dispel because I use them to blank nullify spells more often than not, and its cheaper unless you're a Wizard of course, BUT I was unaware that you still get the 2 mana back from doing this. Awesome bit of info that I'm SURE my friends will argue over until I show them.
Er no. Cancel is NOT destroyed sadly. See my first post in this thread on it.
They are still good though for exactly what the reasons you've given, Sylex.
-
I've never actually pulled off the "I Reverse Attack your Reverse Attack" coup but assume it's rules legal
Nobody plays them anyway because of the silly Unavoidable nerf
I've never used double reverse attack, but I've lost to a single reverse attack before. I had 10 life left and my fully buffed forcemaster attacked for 8 + 4 (we weren't sure if reverse attack reversed both halves of the doublestrike but we eventually decided that it did).
-
Decoy is even better when Fellela casts it for you.. because you gain 2 mana when its revealed instead of it being a 2 mana refund from casting it. (assuming Fellela has been paying for herself and been worth her own cost and happily alive.)
Nice!
I think the meta has moved away from Unavoidable attacks (beyond Surging Wave) so I may give these flying familiars another go.
What I like about Felella is she can be safe 2 behind buffing as free actions.
For Huginn to be useful (and he can win Jelly Pit Teleport Wars for you), he has to be frontline...
Also Felella can buff herself with Bull Endurance and Regrowth which is why I was attracted to her
But she's so slooow and not an animal for Ring or Lair so she's a fragile focal strategy price really
I remember an early experimental game when I tried "Beastmaster Control" (yes, it's funny looking back on it).
I played her, Warlock advanced and Fireshaper Flameblast turned her to crisp; never gave her a second chance.
Same with Sosruko, barbecued the poor thing. back to your hole, I never gave him a second glance afterwards
What can I say, I'm a love 'em and leave 'em kinda guy. :)
Decoy, eh? Underrated.
Works best against opponents who study your mana available. Or who over-think what that enchantment is.
Er... that sounds like me.
If Soskuro ate a Flameblast, he actually played its role quite good. He "taunted" the enemy mage and made him spend an action, a card and mana, while normally with its real taunt he only make the mage waste an action.
-
@Deckbuilder: I agree mind control might not be the most efficient tactic, but it is still possible to perform.
@Sylex: You only get the mana return from decoy if you reveal it or if it is destroyed after having been successfully cast. You do not get the mana if the spell is countered or cancelled during it's cast (such as happens with Nullify).
@Webcatcher: reverse attack would only reverse the first attack. It would not affect the second one.
The worst surprise I got was when I attacked a grizzly bear who had been put on guard with only 2 life left. Figured I could kill it and not worry about the counter attack. He revealed a reverse attack causing my bear strength angel to attack herself for 6 dice and then he still got to use the bear's counter attack for another 6 dice (he also had bear strength). My angel went from full health to dead from only slightly above average rolls and it really turned the game around for him.
I didn't know that a reverse attack allowed the original target to still use its counter attack until then. It's a lesson I won't forget. If you don't believe it, read about reverse attack in the FAQ.
-
@Deckbuilder: I agree mind control might not be the most efficient tactic, but it is still possible to perform.
@Sylex: You only get the mana return from decoy if you reveal it or if it is destroyed after having been successfully cast. You do not get the mana if the spell is countered or cancelled during it's cast (such as happens with Nullify).
@Webcatcher: reverse attack would only reverse the first attack. It would not affect the second one.
The worst surprise I got was when I attacked a grizzly bear who had been put on guard with only 2 life left. Figured I could kill it and not worry about the counter attack. He revealed a reverse attack causing my bear strength angel to attack herself for 6 dice and then he still got to use the bear's counter attack for another 6 dice (he also had bear strength). My angel went from full health to dead from only slightly above average rolls and it really turned the game around for him.
I didn't know that a reverse attack allowed the original target to still use its counter attack until then. It's a lesson I won't forget. If you don't believe it, read about reverse attack in the FAQ.
Wow thats a hurting lesson! Thx for sharing it, will keep it in mind :).
Btw the discussion went quite offtopic but since its a fruiful discussion I really dont mind ;). There is not that much to discuss about the OP - its only a fun idea.
-
I usually add 2 decoy's in every book in place of a seeking dispel because I use them to blank nullify spells more often than not, and its cheaper unless you're a Wizard of course, BUT I was unaware that you still get the 2 mana back from doing this. Awesome bit of info that I'm SURE my friends will argue over until I show them.
Er no. Cancel is NOT destroyed sadly. See my first post in this thread on it.
They are still good though for exactly what the reasons you've given, Sylex.
I see, got ahead of myself there. Thanks DB
-
I like Decoy as well, but I do not usually use them to pop Nullifies since I generally play Wizard. I tend to use the Decoys as fake Teleport Traps or fake Nullifies (or better) of my own. I pack a couple of Jinx's for use as Nullify bait instead of the Decoys.
If the Jinx hits a Nullify, fine... he spend one action and four mana, and I only spend one action and two mana. A Decoy hitting the Nullified Mage does no better... either it costs two mana for my opponent's four (if he chooses to Nullify the Decoy), or no mana for my opponent's two (if he doesn't).
Both spells are one spellbook point as well for the Wizard.
If the Jinx sticks, my opponent's next quick spell is cancelled, which might disrupt his plans. The cost to me if it sticks is one action and two mana (counting Arcane Ring discount when it eventually is revealed)... but in this case, it is a loss of two mana compared with my opponent since he gets his mana back when his spell is cancelled... so the trade-off is the two mana plus Jinx spellbook point spent for me against slightly modifying my opponent's actions (change in spells cast, or possibly preventing my opponent from doing what he is hoping to do).
What might my opponent be planning to do? One example might be that he might have his own Decoy and a Curse / Poison enchantment that he wants to stick to my Mage. He generally won't be able to get his Decoy spell off, leaving the Nullify on my Wizard to counter the enchantment spell if he still chooses to cast it.
And if that "Nullify" that he saw me enchant may Mage with just after he popped another of my Nullifies was a Decoy instead... maybe he casts it on another target instead, which probably hurts me less. And... maybe I switch things up and *do* use a Decoy instead of a Jinx, just to keep my opponent guessing.
Note: This isn't as good if the opponent had Huginn in range to see what it was that was stuck on his Mage.