Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Avarice on August 22, 2014, 06:44:23 AM
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Whats up all. Im seeking some advice on a spellbook. I'm playing necro vs another necro. Would it be wise to go skeletons or zombies? Should I do something crazy and go big flyers?
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I guess it sort of depends on how you want to play it. Zombies are difficult to kill in general. Only real weakness with them is they are slow and dont have that much health although they compensate with the resilience trait. Plus they have the Bloodthirsty trait which is great sometimes, but it can also be a problem if your opponent distracts them with damaged decoy creatures. Flying is also a big weakness for them as well.
Skellies are a bit more fragile then the zombies but they are easy to heal with reconstruct.
Personally, I like zombies. They are hard to kill, they come with a bigger variety of types and they have shaggoth which is a monster if you feed him enough.
What sort of build do you favor more? Aggressive? Turtley?
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Definitely favor aggression. I know the necro needs sine time to set up.
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Maybe lof against another necro?
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Zombies, only if you get a mage wand and use zombie frenzy every turn after you set up, it really annoys your opponent.
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Eh the Necro doesn't need that much time. If you have him running Libro then you should be fine with summoning. Libro + Graveyard is a little overkill unless you are planning on running a swarm build.
I haven't seen anyone pull a lof out with a Necro but its definitely feasible.
Zombies, only if you get a mage wand and use zombie frenzy every turn after you set up, it really annoys your opponent.
^This is a great combo with zombies
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I use a mix of both in my dual spwanpoint zombie swarm book
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I actually like skeletons more usually, with some exceptions. This mainly has to do with the fact that most zombies can't hinder other creatures due to Pest, and that's important for making sure the Necro can keep his distance while he summons and Meditates. Creatures that actually hinder also have good synergy with Cloak of Shadows, an equip which is incredibly important to the Necro.
Skeletons are also more efficient vs Nonliving creatures, which are harder for the Necro to interact with in terms of his Plaguemaster ability. Against Living creatures, though, zombies are more efficient, at least in terms of dice.
Skeles also have access to powerful Soldier-specific cards like Armory, Flank Attack, Garrison/Archer outposts, etc. Zombies have stronger support in-school, since cards like Rise Again, that Ziggurat thing, and Animate Dead only really shine in zombie builds.
Some conjurations meant for defense/late game also have the skeleton subtype, and benefit from Reassemble and Unholy Resurgence.
Overall, I'd say they're pretty equal. Playstyle-wise, Zombies are more efficient offensively while Skeletons are more efficient defensively, given the current card pool. When I play 10-channeling mages, I naturally tend to aim towards the lategame where I can probably overwhelm my opponent with mana and actions, so I like skeles more. However, I also have to prop up my offensive capabilities in the matchups against mages who can be even more lategame-oriented.
Before FiF came out, I often found room for Shaggoth-Zora in every Necro book I made. It doesn't have Pest and doesn't need much support besides a couple Crawlers to munch on to get big. A single Ichthellid is good too, since it is its own engine given how the ability and Plaguemaster works.
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Fair warning Necro/Necro matches can get REAL dull when you're both immune to the other guys best poison tricks and curses :) For overall play I prefer skeletons, just get some overall better creatures in my view, but I imagine a good zombie book will go through a good skeleton book, that's just my observation though.
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Both swarmtypes are awesome!
There is not much to add here and whatever you choose just do not play Sardonyx and pay attention to the Zombie Frenzy combo! I'd choose skellies too, simply because i like armory and the skeletal knight :D
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Odd, I would think the answer to this one would be obvious, frankly. If it's necro vs necro, go skeleton. A big thing about zombies is they hit hard...due primarily to Bloodthirsty. Which doesn't apply vs skeletons. Even Zombie Frenzy just gives them more Bloodthirsty (and Fast, of course).
Just be sure to include plenty of mobility for your mage, because your zombie-swarming opponent is totally going to try to focus-fire your mage down. And without Bloodthirsty forcing his zombies to attack your (nonliving) creatures, he just might do it!
I would probably play with a Battleforge, and gear up while bringing out the supporting creatures. Include plenty of Reassembles to keep the healing up.
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Thanks guys for the advice. I figure with skells I can put more pressure on him with death fangs and archers. Zombies are lumbering, so it will take a lil longer to get to me after I start hitting him. Blood thirsty works on mage tho no?
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Also, if I go skells and forge, what would first 3 rounds look like? Should I go graveyard and libros as well, or just book and save the rest of mana to gear up?
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I'd go with the book but not the graveyard.
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Ok. If my mage takes damage, do zombies get bloodthirsty?
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Ok. If my mage takes damage, do zombies get bloodthirsty?
Yes.
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Yes...your mage is a living creature.
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K.. thank u
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Ok. If my mage takes damage, do zombies get bloodthirsty?
Yes.
No and yes
From Codex
"This creature gains +X attack dice when it makes a melee attacks versus a living creature with 1 or more damage." and "If there is a damaged living enemy creature in bloodthirsty creature's zone, it must melee attack that creature (if possible)"
So your zombies get the bloodthirsty bonus if they attack your damaged mage, but they are not required to do so as the targeting restriction only applies to enemy, living creatures.
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He's saying that if they're your own zombies, they don't have to attack you. If they're your opponent's zombies, on the other hand, yes, they have to attack you if you're injured.
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Back to this topic... are really zombies more aggresive and skeletons more defensive?
I tried a necromancer book based around [mwcard=DNQ05]Libro Mortuos[/mwcard] and [mwcard=FWQ09]Sectarus, Dark Rune Sword[/mwcard]. I went for skeletons, 6 minions plus some more variety. The idea is bring libro and death ring first turn, drop two [mwcard=DNC15]Skeletal Minion[/mwcard] second turn, and from there go jump onto the other mage, keeping droping skeletons from libro every turn, and using Sectarus for action advantage (if going mele, is gives +1 channel, +1 mele +1 piercing and opportity to get curses on opponent for a 10 mana quickcast), in something similar to a swarm rush.
In such a book, i think the skeletons hability to both hinder and doble move to get in touch when needed gives them more 'punch' than an similar zombie book. Zombies punch harder, but skeletons will punch more often, which i think will result in more damage dice. Of course you can vary using specific combinations... but i don´t see clearly zombies as more aggresive.
In fact, if i planned to have a slow build up, i think zombies would be the best aproach, since enemy is forced to come to you, and then their higher attack will overcome the lost attacks due to thier lumbering and pest traits.
I just had a couple of plays of my skeleton book... but it seemed that the rush could not be archieved by using zombies.
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It's not so much that zombies are better at aggressive than skeletons. Skeletons can certainly be played aggressively! It's more like this:
Can skeletons be used offensively? Absolutely! Can they be used defensively? Absolutely! Can zombies be used offensively? Absolutely! Can they be used defensively? *crickets* ; )
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Well, i think zombies could be used nicely in a (defensive) more pasive-aggresive stance - you drop them in your fortress, and let the enemy come to you, using their inmobile high damage output to kill dangers (not guard from them)... i think i'm gonna try to build up a book using this aproach and see how it comes.
So mi opinion (maybe it does not have a solid base) is that if you plan to get a quick agressive build, skeletons are more efficient (or easier at least), but for a slow economy build, maybe better use zombies (which seems just the opposite of the general opinion :-[ which means probably i'm wrong)
I need more games anyway :D
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It's not so much that zombies are better at aggressive than skeletons. Skeletons can certainly be played aggressively! It's more like this:
Can skeletons be used offensively? Absolutely! Can they be used defensively? Absolutely! Can zombies be used offensively? Absolutely! Can they be used defensively? *crickets* ; )
Would I want to walk though two zones full of zombies to get to the mage to try and kill him? Probably not. But that is a defensive posture using zombies. Everybody who plays against them, stays the hell away from zombies so by nature they are defensive, just not responsive.
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Zombies are good at applying counter pressure, but not at directly preventing your mage from taking damage in the short term. They're not good guards (most of them have Pest, and all of them have Bloodthirsty), but they can kill your opponent's threats efficiently.
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i play both, in 2 different books. 2 completely different builds
play Libro over the graveyard.
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Zombies are gonna be good if you plan to stay in the back and just build your army and feeding your zombie pool by casting rise again and then playing with your poisons. I recommend a venomous zombie or plague zombie as your eternal servant. This way you just keep fishing out poison conditions and dealing maximum damage. Deathshrowd staff can give rot conditions too and never underestimate acid balls.
Skeletons are nice when you can create finite life for everyone using either death lock or alter of skulls. I highly recommend the alter this way you can heal yourself. Then drop reconstruction spells, Mort and your acolytes to keep your army rolling while your enemy has no way to get health. Then use skeletons to occupy enemy while you get out max armor on yourself, defenses, and veterns belt. You would be amazed at how hard it is to kill a nec this way. Your enemy will not be able to cast poison curses on you and you can go total bad ass with your skellies
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As for the Libro Mortuos and the Graveyard, I have found it a good strategy to cast the book early on (that way you can move and cast spells--Harmonize is good--between Deployment) while advancing toward your opponent, and leaving a trail of waking undead behind you. Then, wait until a space clears near a key strategic location (usually near the center of the board) and cast the Graveyard then, preferably s they cannot escape. Try trapping the Mage between the Arena wall, Walls of Bones, and your Graveyard, so that they can only advance towards you. This can be risky if your Necromancer is open to ranged attack, but if they stay in place, you can charge them with undead ;)
Best Wishes,
--IronLegionnaire
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I see people advocating libro basically all the time, and basically no one talks about graveyard. I think something not a lot of players take into account or perhaps haven't dealt with much is a well timed dissolve on libro. Yes, the necro can bring it back, but a dissolve cast in final quickcast can often really damage a necro's plans for next round. At least with graveyard, you know it's going to be around at the end of a turn, and can try and protect it if you're opponent tries to take it down.
Basically, libro is more effecient, while graveyard is more reliable.
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I'd like to go on-record as a major Graveyard supporter when facing off against other economy builds. Graveyard + Meditation Amulet can generate a tremendous amount of mana, and that's before extras like Harmonize or Ring. Combined with Ichthalid's cheep self summoning, it's possible to bury an opponent in mana advantage.
For this kind of book and matchup, Skeletons are usually my critters of choice, because Zombies are just SO slow. I think The Book is so popular because people want to use the Not Worth Killing Zombies, but Skeleton builds can be more flexible.
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Yes, Zombies can eat your living Necro alive, though you can have Skeletons guarding you from becoming zombie fertilizer :). On another note, remember that there are a lot of decent Dark Living Creatures out there that can support a Necro deck, primary Demons that deal fire damage because Burn ignore Resilience. Of course, anything with Bloodthirsty or Vampiric is silly against another Necro, but it is uncommon for two Necro to face each other.